Eurostar's current line up

[Bloodstone]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

You know, based on posts in this and other threads I expected 4E Eurostar to be virtually unstopable. Having now seen Bora and Pantera, I can't say I'm all that impressed.

 

I think I need to see the rest of 4E Eurostar...

[Vondy]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

You know, based on posts in this and other threads I expected 4E Eurostar to be virtually unstopable. Having now seen Bora and Pantera, I can't say I'm all that impressed.

 

I think I need to see the rest of 4E Eurostar...

 

It depends how you use them - and how much of an edge their DX/SP gives them. Mentalla was, essentially, a desolid metalist with high-end mental powers, and Bora could be Desolid and Invisible; and she was a nightmare for ground-pounders who didn't have super-strength or knockback resistance. She could simply grab them with her TK, fly up a few hundred inches at NCM, and then drop them - or accelerate the fall with her TK. And while Pantera and White Flame (also Deso capable IIRC) aren't the baddest villians on the block, they are significantly more dangerous than Feurmacher and Scorpia are. In combination (8 of them with highish speed scores, a few more damage classes, and more strategic breadth), and used properly, they were a nighmare. The key was coordinating them for effectiveness.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

Ok, some of this might be a 4E to 5E thing here. Did Desol work different back then?

 

Cause Bora doesn't have have affects physical world on anything and I assumed "Fully Invisible" meant her power SFX, not that she was actually Invisibile (though that would make sense if she turns into air or some such). I know the Desolid to Psionics thing went the way of the Dodo in 5E, so I'm sure if she was directly converted she would probably end up with some Mental Defense and/or Mental DR linked to her Desolidification.

 

That is, so far, one of my biggest gripes about 4E write-ups: the powers are lacking in description. Some of 'em I can figure out readily. Other stuff I'm left to wonder what the hell the SFX is supposed to be.

 

Like Rainbow Archer (who is a normal Human that can run over 50 MPH and, by 5E standards, has a truly obsene DEX) has a trick arrow that is Invisible to Sight. I have no idea why this particular arrow is invisible, I just have a bare bones mechanic. Same with her Penetrating, Stun only EB arrow. At least the other Stun Only arrow had a note that it was Electrical in nature.

[Vondy]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

Ok, some of this might be a 4E to 5E thing here. Did Desol work different back then?

 

Cause Bora doesn't have have affects physical world on anything and I assumed "Fully Invisible" meant her power SFX, not that she was actually Invisibile (though that would make sense if she turns into air or some such). I know the Desolid to Psionics thing went the way of the Dodo in 5E, so I'm sure if she was directly converted she would probably end up with some Mental Defense and/or Mental DR linked to her Desolidification.

 

That is, so far, one of my biggest gripes about 4E write-ups: the powers are lacking in description. Some of 'em I can figure out readily. Other stuff I'm left to wonder what the hell the SFX is supposed to be.

 

Like Rainbow Archer (who is a normal Human that can run over 50 MPH and, by 5E standards, has a truly obsene DEX) has a trick arrow that is Invisible to Sight. I have no idea why this particular arrow is invisible, I just have a bare bones mechanic. Same with her Penetrating, Stun only EB arrow. At least the other Stun Only arrow had a note that it was Electrical in nature.

 

Mechanical write ups in 4E were very bad, IMO.

 

Its also obvious (esp. in European Enemies and Zodiac Conspiracy) that a lot of people writing supplements interpreted the rules differently, or simply didn't understand them when preparing characters for publication. Bora's written description didn't fit her mechanical build, but was short enough on details to be open to interpretation. Also, sometimes things were seemingly not parsed out correctly and lumped together, or costed incorrectly.

 

My group went through and debugged a lot of characters - including Bora. Assuming the precedence for correctness is "description, build, item cost" then Bora should be able to be Desolid and Invisible at one time, though her mechanical write up indicates she is Desolid with Invisible Power effects. And then, based on her described tactics, and the team tactics, she seems to be able to attack while Deso, but its not on the sheet.

 

How one uses her is dependent on how one interprets this. I will say that I know of three other game masters - not from my group - who felt she should be able to be deso and invisible. And all of us complained about the same thing you have mentioned - she doesn't appear to be built correctly, and she's not very well built if she is.

 

How we fixed that varied:

1. Desolidification with invisible power effects (at DX 30/SPD 7 she can easily time her attacks so that she can go solid, attack, and then on the next phase abort to deso (a defensive power) if need be).
   
2. Desolidification with invisible power effects and full invisibility (she can attack while invisible, but not while deso, but can also time her attacks in 1 above).
   
3. Desolidification with invisible power effects and affects physical world (ugh!).
   
4. Desolidification with invisible power effects and fully invisible with affects physical world (ugh!).

I used method 2, but my players (suicidally) insisted Method 4 was conceptually correct. At that point, however, she wouldn't have needed the rest of Eurostar, which is why I didn't use it.

[Kirby]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

You know' date=' based on posts in this and other threads I expected 4E Eurostar to be virtually unstopable. Having now seen Bora and Pantera, I can't say I'm all that impressed.[/quote']

To quote Yoda: "You will be."

 

Seriously, though, one of the things that made 4E Eurostar so impressive was their numbers. Also, 4E was a 250 point game instead of 350. They had eight members, most PC teams have about 5. This leaves a 1-on-1 match up with three members to make the rounds or used in reserve. Generally our GM that ran Eurostar would have Pantera and Bora in reserve and have another go from person to person. Pantera had a 35 DEX, 7 SPD (13 OCV, 12 DCV), with a 4d6KA and Find Weakness w/it on 14-. With her Telescopic Vision and Enhanced Vision, our GM would essentially have her "snipe" with her Find Weakness on all team members until she had gone through the roster. Then she'd come down and start attacking. Having about 20 Defenses and her FW on you once or twice when she shows up is not fun.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

Yeah, I read Pantera's profile and am well aware of how she can be used. In fact, I'm looking at her character sheet right now. For the record, she's got a 35 DEX and one level with her claws, so that shold be a 13 OCV and a 12 DCV (-1 if she takes a half move back then, right?)

 

I'll try to get my hands on the rest of Eurostar tonight...

[Kirby]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

For the record' date=' she's got a 35 DEX and one level with her claws, so that shold be a 13 OCV and a 12 DCV (-1 if she takes a half move back then, right?) [/quote']Er, yeah. I must have had the "13 OCV" stuck in my head and then added the level again. Still, pretty nasty. She's the kind of character that my PC with Regeneration would like to have done the bump-n-grind with (but he's lecherous anyway). It probably didn't hurt that there was a female on the team named "Vixen" who had claws and regen also (as well as martial arts), so Pantera was the more "wild animal" to the girl he already had the hots for.

[Questar]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

You know, based on posts in this and other threads I expected 4E Eurostar to be virtually unstopable. Having now seen Bora and Pantera, I can't say I'm all that impressed.

 

I think I need to see the rest of 4E Eurostar...

 

As has been mentioned, the SPD, DEX and sheer number of villains in Eurostar helped make Eurostar the most powerful supervillain team in 4E.

 

What hasn't been noted is that most 4E characters underwent a balooning in power when rewritten for 5E. Compare 4E Ripper, for example to the new 5E Ripper. Or most any other 5E character (there are probably a few exceptions, Eurostar being one).

 

If Eurostar had received a comparable upgrading in power as others, they *would* be virtually instoppable, even in a 5E campaigns. Instead, their power was degraded, if not in point value, certainly in combat effectiveness.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

A few factors made 4E Eurostar so deadly. Numbers and Damage Class have already been mentioned (note that Mentalla's mental attacks were DC 16, in addition to her Drain EGO Power). In particular, Pantera's HKA combined with Find Weakness was extremely nasty. And don't underestimate the usefulness of Desolid, even if you don't have Affects Solid World, in letting you avoid major attacks, and circumvent obstacles to getting in position for a surprise attack.

 

Eurostar were also described as using excellent team tactics, even Pantera unless and until she went Berserk. With Bora's Double Knockback EB to hurl opponents away from her allies or toward where they could be easily attacked; White Flame and Le Sone's nasty Flash attacks; Fiacho's concealing smoke projector; Mentalla's major Mind Control and Mental Illusions; and the Whip's Trip and Disarm Martial Maneuvers whith his weapon, the group had many tactical options when working together.

 

Finally, Eurostar were all ruthless killers, with no hesitation to use lethal force, kill innocent bystanders, or cause large-scale devastation. Attitude was as big a factor as power in what made Eurostar so dangerous and so feared.

[Weldun]

Re: Eurostar's current line up

 

Attitude was as big a factor as power in what made Eurostar so dangerous and so feared.

Wow. I was going to make a point about how the current line up is still something to be feared, but that pretty much sums it up, right there.