SpydirShellX Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Looking at the rules I noticed that negative statistics are rather weird. The primary ones all have nifty effects. Generally requiring a roll to avoid some effect. This means that they get harder and harder to avoid the effects. COM has a slight wierdness in that you can actually get an advantage for having a negative value (which is especially weird since there is no rule-based advantage for a positive value). The weirdness continues when we get to the figured characteristics. Suddenly we have a series of abilities that simply have a cut-off. At zero they loose all the benifits of positive values, (however neccessary positive values of STUN and SPD have) but they have no furthur effect. This actually matches the way powers and such are treated by adjustment powers. Seems to me it might be interesting to have "negative zone" abilities to go with the above powers. Anyway, in addition to the above thoughts, I have a question when a drain affects multiple characteristics at a time, it affects them in relation to the active points in the power. On multiple occasions I've come across a situation where I want to drain them all at the exact same rate, yet due to the way the points work, this becomes very difficult, if not neigh impossible to do. Example 1) Had a nasty attack that was deadly, but only in the long run. I'd like to build it as a Drain END, then STUN, then BOD - kinda like a long term enviromental effect. However, the problem becomes that END costs 1/2 a point, stun costs 1 point and BOD costs two. I'd like to drain at a Standard Effect rate of 1 point no matter the what it was effecting. Yet, in order to do this, I need to buy it a 1d6+1 drain (an annoying uneven amount to purchase), but for most of the effect I'm only using 1/2 a point. Now this ability has a lot of advantanges making it actually pretty expensive active cost (and thus END cost) for a function the probably won't even come into play. Example 2) Decided I wanted a character with a defender ability. So I provided this guy with Aid to his (or Others) all defenses at once(+2). However, they tend to cost differing amounts. Armor is 1.5 per point, Power and Mental 1 per point, Flash 5 per point (the character had 5 sense groups to defend), KB Resist 2 per point, and Lack of Weakness 3 per point (normal, resistant and exotic). Example 3) Drain all movement powers/ aid all movement powers. Anybody have any simple ways of overcoming this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Negative Characterisitc effects are there only for when they are Drained/Transfered below 0. A character cannot start with or buy any CHAR besides STR and COM below 0. And even those require GM Permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics I'm not sure why you want to drain different stuff at the same rate, but here is a sort of fix (sort of because if any of the 'stuff' has advantages then it wouldn't work properly as the costs would be out) Suffocation MP 40 points 1u SLOT 1 1d6 END drain 1u SLOT 2 2d6 STUN drain(can only be used when target has no END -1/2) 1u SLOT 3 4d6 BODY drain (can only be used when target has no STUN or END -2) 43 points Standard effect would give you 6 END, STUN or BODY drained per use. Actually, it would be cheaper to buy them individually rather than in a MP, cost being 36 points, same effect. Seems like a lot of effort to me. BTW The -2 limitation is based on the fact that the character will be helpless and you could just coup-de-grace him. A similar method could eb employed for the other drains you were after. If you really wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics I'm sorry... remind me... Can't you have a generic Drain? Once a character is out of END, then their STUN starts to get burned... after STUN, doesn't body come next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpydirShellX Posted November 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics I'm sorry... remind me... Can't you have a generic Drain? Once a character is out of END, then their STUN starts to get burned... after STUN, doesn't body come next? I wish. There's some game effects that work that way. But nothing easy to build. I'm not sure why you want to drain different stuff at the same rate, but here is a sort of fix (sort of because if any of the 'stuff' has advantages then it wouldn't work properly as the costs would be out) Suffocation MP 40 points 1u SLOT 1 1d6 END drain 1u SLOT 2 2d6 STUN drain(can only be used when target has no END -1/2) 1u SLOT 3 4d6 BODY drain (can only be used when target has no STUN or END -2) 43 points Standard effect would give you 6 END, STUN or BODY drained per use. Actually, it would be cheaper to buy them individually rather than in a MP, cost being 36 points, same effect. Seems like a lot of effort to me. BTW The -2 limitation is based on the fact that the character will be helpless and you could just coup-de-grace him. A similar method could eb employed for the other drains you were after. If you really wanted. That kinda close to what I want. The problem is for that example is that it's continous/uncontrolled... meaning I want it to automatically switch between them when it finishes one without the character using it doing anything. Negative Characterisitc effects are there only for when they are Drained/Transfered below 0. A character cannot start with or buy any CHAR besides STR and COM below 0. And even those require GM Permission. Yes, but wouldn't it be neat if there were cooler effects they happened when they were so drained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Example 1) Had a nasty attack that was deadly, but only in the long run. I'd like to build it as a Drain END, then STUN, then BOD - kinda like a long term enviromental effect. However, the problem becomes that END costs 1/2 a point, stun costs 1 point and BOD costs two. I'd like to drain at a Standard Effect rate of 1 point no matter the what it was effecting. Yet, in order to do this, I need to buy it a 1d6+1 drain (an annoying uneven amount to purchase), but for most of the effect I'm only using 1/2 a point. Now this ability has a lot of advantanges making it actually pretty expensive active cost (and thus END cost) for a function the probably won't even come into play. Drain "Life Energy" 1d6, Any One Of END, STUN or END (+1/4), Must Drain In Order (END, then STUN, then BODY; -1), Maximum Value Drained 1 (-1/2) Personally, I'd just foget the last Lim and go for full point effect. First it quickly makes them tired, then makes them fall asleep, then it slowly kills them. Example 2) Decided I wanted a character with a defender ability. So I provided this guy with Aid to his (or Others) all defenses at once(+2). However, they tend to cost differing amounts. Armor is 1.5 per point, Power and Mental 1 per point, Flash 5 per point (the character had 5 sense groups to defend), KB Resist 2 per point, and Lack of Weakness 3 per point (normal, resistant and exotic). Initially I'd just suggest buying Force Field UBO. The only thing is that you can't include KB Resistance or Lack of Weakness in it, so if you want to increase those as well, buy them with UBO as well. The advantage of doing it this way is that even if the person you are defending doesn't have that type of defense, they will when you grant it to them. If you use Aid or Succor, they'll only get an increase to what they already have, which might not effectively protect them. Example 3) Drain all movement powers/ aid all movement powers. I'd like know what SFX this will be first of all. You really can't define a list of game mechanics in liu of a SFX for Adjustment Powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpydirShellX Posted November 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics The drain/aid all movement powers was a gravitational effect - It bent space-time around the target charcter making it easier or harder for them to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Hehe...negative speed. You have to go back and undo all the actions you have just taken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics That kinda close to what I want. The problem is for that example is that it's continous/uncontrolled... meaning I want it to automatically switch between them when it finishes one without the character using it doing anything. I'm happy enough to have a MP that switches automatically in that kind of situation: it HAS to work in a certain way - in fact having a limit on which slopts you can use in a multipower is (according to the rules, although I probably would not allow it) a limitation and could save you points. I'd just call it a Zero Sum advantage/limitation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Drain "Life Energy" 1d6' date=' Any One Of END, STUN or END (+1/4), Must Drain In Order (END, then STUN, then BODY; -1), Maximum Value Drained 1 (-1/2)[/quote'] I'd argue that the 'must drain in order' limitation is only a limtiation on the part of the power that is the 'can drain multiple things' advantage, rather than on the whole power, otherwise it would be cheaper to have this power than the power to only drain one of the characteristics. Also it would need to be a bigger drain than this given the recovery rate: you'd never get anywhere with it. Might be better in fact to build it with supress..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics ....mind you you can't kill anything with supress.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Can't you do some sort of Change Environment, so that it only applies to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Hehe...negative speed. You have to go back and undo all the actions you have just taken Um... Time Travel anyone? This is one of those negative characteristics that you have to pay points for, like COM past a certain point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics I'd argue that the 'must drain in order' limitation is only a limtiation on the part of the power that is the 'can drain multiple things' advantage' date=' rather than on the whole power, otherwise it would be cheaper to have this power than the power to only drain one of the characteristics. True. It was only what I came up with off the top of my head. Might make it a -0 in that case. Also it would need to be a bigger drain than this given the recovery rate: you'd never get anywhere with it. Might be better in fact to build it with supress..... Could always buy down the recovery rate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Could always buy down the recovery rate... True, true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraterMaker Posted November 10, 2006 Report Share Posted November 10, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Initially I'd just suggest buying Force Field UBO. The only thing is that you can't include KB Resistance or Lack of Weakness in it, so if you want to increase those as well, buy them with UBO as well. WHAT? Really?!? Ermmm... (reluctantly pulls out eraser) Is this just a fiat stated by the rules, or is there some sort of balance issue I'm not seeing? -CraterMaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted November 11, 2006 Report Share Posted November 11, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics WHAT? Really?!? Ermmm... (reluctantly pulls out eraser) Is this just a fiat stated by the rules, or is there some sort of balance issue I'm not seeing? -CraterMaker To which part are you referring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics ....mind you you can't kill anything with supress.... You can; they just don't stay dead. Lucius Alexander Suppress Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics They do if you suppress their STUN or BOD to zero, and then pop a cap in their braincases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted November 20, 2006 Report Share Posted November 20, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics WHAT? Really?!? Ermmm... (reluctantly pulls out eraser) Is this just a fiat stated by the rules, or is there some sort of balance issue I'm not seeing? -CraterMaker Force Fields can include Mental Defense, Power Defense, and Flash Defense for any sense, just like Force Walls can. It's right in the power description; see (frex) FREd p115. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics They do if you suppress their STUN or BOD to zero' date=' and then pop a cap in their braincases. [/quote'] Now I was under the impression that you can't damage a dead guy. Sure, you can cause damage to the corpse, but that's just the corpse. It's not the character anymore. That's why there's no 'body destroyed' level of BODY, and why you can kill someone without even causing damage to the character's physical body. With that in mind, you could save someone's life by Suppressing their BODY to the sufficiently negative level right before they would have been killed, then turn off the Suppress after the danger has passed. Poof! They're alive again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheUnknown Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Now I was under the impression that you can't damage a dead guy. Sure, you can cause damage to the corpse, but that's just the corpse. It's not the character anymore. That's why there's no 'body destroyed' level of BODY, and why you can kill someone without even causing damage to the character's physical body. With that in mind, you could save someone's life by Suppressing their BODY to the sufficiently negative level right before they would have been killed, then turn off the Suppress after the danger has passed. Poof! They're alive again! All in all some very interesting comcepts on suppress and I'm not going to argue or say they're wrong because I've used them before but I've come to the conclusion that once you destroy the body/Structure then its done unlike affecting just a part of it like str, stun or end. Now the only thing I disagree with is the whole suppress someone until danger is gone and they're safe not true because if some attemps to destroy the corpse it will take whatever appropiate damage based on attack and defence. There are no hero system rules o support that assumption that corpes take no damage and there's good reason why because it could cause a nightmare to be created if unchecked. Examble you build duplicate, follower, automation with shape shift to surround you like a symbiate/suit then you suppress it to death and walk around as an unstoppable juggernaught assuming you had enough str to carry around the dead weight lol! Becare of assumptions they can lead to destaster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheUnknown Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics All in all some very interesting comcepts on suppress and I'm not going to argue or say they're wrong because I've used them before but I've come to the conclusion that once you destroy the body/Structure then its done unlike affecting just a part of it like str, stun or end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics Now I was under the impression that you can't damage a dead guy. Sure, you can cause damage to the corpse, but that's just the corpse. It's not the character anymore. That's why there's no 'body destroyed' level of BODY, and why you can kill someone without even causing damage to the character's physical body. With that in mind, you could save someone's life by Suppressing their BODY to the sufficiently negative level right before they would have been killed, then turn off the Suppress after the danger has passed. Poof! They're alive again! If it's suppressed to 0 they're still alive. If it's supressed to -BODY they're dead. Well, Mostly Dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted November 21, 2006 Report Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: Negative Statistics But mostly dead is still partly alive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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