I may be overthinking this, but

[Robyn]

I'm told, from time to time, that I'm overthinking things. But if I engage in more thought than someone else upon a given topic, wouldn't I be better qualified than they to determine when I've been thinking too much about it?

 

I am excellently positioned to identify overthinking, and indeed do have some criteria for it. I will now share these criteria, as drawn from my own experience, and built through HERO mechanics

 

+xINT, No Conscious Control (no handwaving this; the power cannot be invoked at will, it may or may not activate when the character is using INT whether more INT is needed or not, and will typically shut off when the character ceases activities that do not require boosted INT anymore), Activation Roll with Burnout, Side Effect: headaches (Always; they kick in when the +xINT power wears off)

 

If possible, the "-1/10AP" should be taken from RSR and applied to the Activation Roll, or even -1/5AP since this fits the INT increments (and their corresponding bonuses to INT-based skills) better.

[Fireleaper]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Hmm, interesting but since you are able to determine that you are overthinking things then would that mean you also have:

 

Detect: overthinking, (mental group), discriminatory, Sense; 10 active;Requires a Perception roll -1/2, 7 real

[Sean Waters]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

The power is fine but you need to include a Psych Lim: OCD.

 

 

 

[pinecone]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

I'd add in Extra time, otherwise its not much of a lim... "Dang if only I been less smart!" doesn't sound as bad as "Why did I spend so much time think about this instead of Doing something!" (much more angsty..)

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

I'd add in Extra time' date=' otherwise its not much of a lim... "Dang if only I been less smart!" doesn't sound as bad as "Why did I spend so much time think about this instead of Doing something!" (much more angsty..)[/quote']

 

You're thinking of a different build. In my experience, the latter never occurs; overthinking is not thought that isn't worthwhile, but thinking too hard.

[casualplayer]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Do you find that overthinking produces anything other than the realization that your first impulse was best? I would say it is a Psych Lim occasionally requiring you to take Extra Time to make INT Rolls.

[McCoy]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Robyn, I've know you a long time. If you suspect you even might be overthinking, go with that instinct.

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Do you find that overthinking produces anything other than the realization that your first impulse was best?

 

I didn't say rethinking, I said overthinking. Thought does not solely consist of some frantic scramble to assemble a coherent idea so you can run with it, borne out of the desperation to get things done that arises in today's "Now! Faster!" world. There is also the more careful contemplation, such as your philosophy teacher might have described to you on the first day you entered his lecture hall:

 

In your schooling career, you have been trained in the art of answering questions, expressing yourself, and interacting well with a group. But you who devote yourselves to mastering the ways of your social peers are slaves to the group and their approval. What respect do you have for yourself as an individual? That's a question. Answer!

Shut up. That wasn't a rhetorical question, but it did demonstrate how many of you recognize the importance of presenting an answer promptly. It will also be the last time I desire or ask for your opinion. In expressing how you feel, you define yourself to the group, but who are you? If identity is more than a chronicle of emotions, how can you be a product of your thoughts when you never give yourself time to truly think about what you are saying?

[...]

Right and wrong are irrelevant to the feelings of the group, but you need more from a way of life. How many times, after making decisions, have you later realized that it was not a good choice? In other words, though it is not politically correct to say so, you were wrong. This is not always because you did not think about your options beforehand, but because you were not experienced in thinking.

Now when I say thinking, I mean thinking correctly - and before you permit yourself to react to this, remind yourself of what I have just said about thoughts and feelings, about right and wrong. Experience is of little use for the art of feelings, with no right or wrong, and will be just as helpful when treating thoughts the same way. In this class, I will teach you a method for analyzing experience to maximize its potential benefits and assure that they are always with you. That is the difference between a science and an art.

You will learn how to recognize when thoughts are incomplete, and when they cannot be developed further. You will learn how to identify right thoughts, and wrong thoughts, using not the art of guesswork but scientifically proven and objectively reproducible techniques. You will learn the difference between those people who are consistently right, and those whose success depends on their luck of the moment. In short, you will learn how to think.

 

[The preceding text has been paraphrased for semantics and redacted because I just have no idea anymore how the lecture got from self-identity to ethics. Oddly, my recollection was much clearer several days ago when I had the flu and - during one of my brief lapses into lucidity - this speech was wandering through my mind.]

 

Where was I, anyway?

 

Impulse borders on intuition; a subconscious reasoning process. One of the consequences of deepening your awareness is that processes which were previously subconscious may be made fully conscious.

 

Before that awareness, we are consciously aware only of having an opinion or idea manifest, fully formed, in our mind; we then might be able to improve upon it, but only if we try, and even then it depends upon the efficacy of our subconscious mind and the efficacy of our conscious mind. Untrained minds will probably find that their subconscious reasoning process is superior. (The subconscious improves over time*, but while trained minds may still eventually be outstripped again by their subconscious, the conscious thoughts can be verified as having actually occurred; untrained minds generally have no choice but to rely on their subconscious for the best thoughts.)

 

*An interesting feedback loop can be set up to learn faster by direct observation of your own thought processes, but this (like many other things that perhaps ought to be included for the sake of thoroughness) is being saved for a future time, of which Liaden may know something

 

After that awareness, however, the least one can do is take note of which methods are employed by the subconscious during a given thought, and not repeat those with the conscious mind. But there is so much more. For instance, by refining these thought processes, one can ensure that the same process of thinking which is "first in line" (usually generating impulses) does produce the best outcome. It can be the best not by chance, not by fortuitous coincidence, but because you made it so with the full resources you had access to. At that stage, there is no point in rethinking a matter because you have already thought about it quite thoroughly before deciding on a "best" answer.

 

I would say it is a Psych Lim occasionally requiring you to take Extra Time to make INT Rolls.

 

This implies that the taking of Extra Time (which, incidentally, would probably earn a bonus to the roll) is outside the control of the thinker. In practice this is not the case; thoroughness may be desired for whenever possible, but in cases where speed is necessary, it will be possible and in fact the thinker may have devised more accurate prediction formulas for what sort of processing will lead to the best thought.

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Robyn' date=' I've know you a long time. If you suspect you even might be overthinking, go with that instinct.[/quote']

 

Believe me, I know! I've learned (almost the hard way, but thankfully I narrowly avoided that disaster ) to keep alert for the subtle signs such as the faint taste of blood in my nose, or the very faint headache that (if I go somewhere quiet and pay attention to the sensation) seems like it could rapidly become an extremely large headache if I continued cogitating for even a few seconds more. The mind, though not itself a muscle, is nonetheless like any muscle in your body; if exercised too much, it will wear out - and begin to hurt (you) if forced to continue operating.

 

I have experience with overthinking; I know what it's like (and even how to "heal" the mental strain faster, so I can reduce the likelihood of overthinking anything or return to normal sooner after suffering from the effects), and I think it's important to stress the difference between thoughts that are "deeper than anyone should bother going" (to some subjective perceptions) and thoughts that are so intense they literally hurt you.

 

Hmm, maybe I should have listed the game effects of those headaches more descriptively. Let's just say that INT penalties (it hurts too much to think so much) equivalent to the bonuses, and BODY damage (nosebleeds) makes for a good start

[Sean Waters]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

I have to admit to feeling ever so slightly offended that there seems to be a suggestion underpinning this thread that overthinking might, from certain perspectives, be considered a less than desireable thing.

 

Surely not?

[Sean Waters]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

+30 INT

 

Extra time

Concentration

Side effects (full effect, reduced INT)

 

So, you start thinking about something, it takes a long time, you have to give it your all and even then it doesn't really help.

 

Sound at all familiar

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

I have to admit to feeling ever so slightly offended that there seems to be a suggestion underpinning this thread that overthinking might, from certain perspectives, be considered a less than desireable thing.

 

Surely not?

 

I looked through the thread, and indeed I have been able to find traces of this ever so slightly offensive perspective that you mention. I recommend reporting to the mods this fellow:

 

+30 INT

 

Extra time

Concentration

Side effects (full effect, reduced INT)

 

So, you start thinking about something, it takes a long time, you have to give it your all and even then it doesn't really help.

 

Sound at all familiar

 

Don't know who he is, though his name is strangely familiar (could have sworn I'd seen him before), but the post definitely seems to contain those elements you spoke of

[CraterMaker]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Robyn -I think that philosophy .. stuff.. is BS. Oh, not philosophy in general, but that stuff you posted. BUT -

 

- To me, overthinking something means that a person is adding complexity to a problem, usually because they LIKE solving problems, tho there are many psychological tendancies people have that can contribute to overthinking.

 

As a real world example, it's like having a computer that doesnt work - so you tear it all apart, check the internet for help, buy some new parts and install them.... but what was wrong was that it was unplugged.

 

I would build Overthinking as this:

 

-2 INT based rolls, Trigger (when Int Roll Fails), Lasts until an INT roll is successful

 

but that's me..

 

_CraterMaker

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Robyn -I think that philosophy .. stuff.. is BS. Oh' date=' not philosophy in general, but that stuff you posted.[/quote']

 

You've never encountered the teacher who uses his position to push on students the beliefs he personally favors?

 

Thankfully, I've had access to the internet for most of my life, and my philosophical education was not limited to Objectivism, though I do retain a soft spot in my heart for the Sufi way of learning.

 

As a real world example' date=' it's like having a computer that doesnt work - so you tear it all apart, check the internet for help, buy some new parts and install them.... but what was wrong was that it was unplugged.[/quote']

 

This is an inaccurate guessing algorithm . . . whether the thoughts take place consciously, or subconsciously with only a final conclusion presented to the conscious mind.

[CraterMaker]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

You've never encountered the teacher who uses his position to push on students the beliefs he personally favors?

 

Thankfully, I've had access to the internet for most of my life, and my philosophical education was not limited to Objectivism, though I do retain a soft spot in my heart for the Sufi way of learning.

 

 

 

This is an inaccurate guessing algorithm . . . whether the thoughts take place consciously, or subconsciously with only a final conclusion presented to the conscious mind.

 

Now wait a minute.. Re-read what I wrote for the example - there is NO guesswork going on - what is happening is someone is ASSUMING the problem is difficult, so isn't LOOKING for an easy solution -

 

Which is why I think my build is close to Overthinking,but needs some tweaking.. Probably I should buy it as penalty INT rolls that apply ONLY if the INT roll (with modifiers) is 14- or greater, to simulate having a difficulty with the easy stuff.. And boost it up to -5 or so..

 

-CraterMaker

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Now wait a minute.. Re-read what I wrote for the example - there is NO guesswork going on - what is happening is someone is ASSUMING the problem is difficult' date=' so isn't LOOKING for an easy solution[/quote']

 

Ahh, okay. I see now. Sorry about that, I couldn't make sense of your two paragraphs together, the first didn't seem related to the second.

 

To me' date=' overthinking something means that a person is adding complexity to a problem, usually because they LIKE solving problems, tho there are many psychological tendancies people have that can contribute to overthinking.[/quote']

 

How about a Psychological Disadvantage that frequently adds to the difficulty of INT-based tasks the character is considering, then?

 

I assume your players do ask for estimates of their probabilities of success on actions before committing to them.

 

If you don't know whether those "ten Penalty Skill Levels" reflect the actual difficulty of a task, or exist only in your perception, you then have exactly the same situation you described above: not knowing whether your judgement is correct (and the situation really is that complicated) or you're just fooling yourself. It may be safer - and would definitely be more reliable - to make sure (by thorough contemplation) every time, but this just gives you the option of rolling to overcome your Psychological Limitation (and, as a player, you still don't know whether you would want to in any given case, since the GM is keeping the effects secret from you).

 

It should be noted that, in many cases, thinking itself takes very little time. Actions, based on those thoughts, may take longer than they should have, but this is where efficiency comes in; when repairing a computer, the efficient thinker would come up with possible solutions that were both quick to try and did not impair further testing first. (Color added to reduce potential confusion in syntax.)

 

Where there are not many actions to take, or those actions are quite immediate, thinking may not discernibly take any longer at all; consider the sport of baseball, for which young children learn how to catch a flying ball. Their ability to gauge (accurately) where to move their hands, and when, and how to orient their fingers and palm so as to catch the ball - all of this is improved over time, with practice. Despite this improvement, they do not require extra time to watch the ball coming (analyze its trajectory, etcetera) so they can catch it. They are thinking better, not taking longer.

 

In my experience, the efficiency of catching a ball, or otherwise reacting to any fast-moving object, is similar to the efficiency I described above for repairing a computer: immediately figure out what actions can be taken right away and will not interfere with future revelations. (Further optimization, in my experience, is possible through identifying whether it's something I need to catch, intercept, dodge, or run away from; I then get into position for that action, figuring out the details on my way there.)

[Wolfgar]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

You need to factor into the build how overthinking gives other people headaches as well.

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

You need to factor into the build how overthinking gives other people headaches as well.

 

I'd make that a separate attack power, SFX "describing my thought processes to someone" (requires Incantations), Limited to not have any effect on people who're interested in that sort of thing

[Astragaal]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

I pretty much agree with with CraterMaker, but to me Overthinking is a negative, if there can be truly said to be an optimal level of thinking, then overthinking it is the mental equivalent of sending it to comitee adding definitions that obscure rather than illuminate. In short over thinking is detrimental and should be a Psyk Lim of some sort or a limitataion bought on either Int or a skill the character is prone to over thinking.

 

Eg a brilliant mathematician who has an awe inspiring natural grasp of numbers, but frequently overthinks give problem and presents work of dubous academic work on the whole, even if the odd phrase was brilliant.

Id buy that i any nuber of ways, +10 Mathematics Activates on an 11-, half the time he's focused and his brilliance shines through, half the time he over thinks and his work consequently suffers. Or as a psyk Lim, Tends to overthink maths, on failed ego roll 1 is added to the time chart for completion, when new ego roll need be made at -2. Each failed ego roll reduces maths skill by minus 2 although bonues would accrue from extra time. Over timer the ego roll gets harder and eventually there come a point he should give up go think on something else and come back to the problem later, probably itial time for completion to remove a -2 to the ego roll with a further -2 removed for every +1 up the time chart, of course he'd lose the bonuses through extra time, although the work he has made could be the basis for a complementory skill later, etc. If he concentrates and makes the Ego roll he does suffer the penalty, if he fails he over thinks it and fluffs it.

Or as a Stat you could even use +5 Int (not for maths or maths related tasks) +1/4 limitation or whatever., or use activation , or burn out.

 

Certainly, by adding the word complicated maths problems (14- or higher) you can tailor the modeling.

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

if there can be truly said to be an optimal level of thinking

 

The overlooked question, as usual, is scope: is the optimal level of thinking the same for every person, or only for an individual, or only for a group?

[CraterMaker]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Yes.

 

 

 

 

-CraterMaker

[Robyn]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Yes.

 

Do you think you're being clever?

 

The options are mutually exclusive. Either indicate a single answer or admit that you don't see any difference between options which are, by definition, contradictory.

 

Saying "yes" without replying to any particular option is essentially the appearance of answering, without an actual answer. If that's really what you want to do, ever, why waste anyone's time by putting forth such an empty illusion?

If you really feel compelled to speak, admit "I don't know." or declare "I'm not going to answer that."; these, at least, openly divulge that no answer is forthcoming. Speaking in a way that may mislead people into thinking you've actually said something is harmful to a constructive process of communication.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

I thought he was being clever...

[Lucius]

Re: I may be overthinking this, but

 

Do you think you're being clever?

 

The options are mutually exclusive. Either indicate a single answer or admit that you don't see any difference between options which are, by definition, contradictory.

 

Saying "yes" without replying to any particular option is essentially the appearance of answering, without an actual answer. If that's really what you want to do, ever, why waste anyone's time by putting forth such an empty illusion?

If you really feel compelled to speak, admit "I don't know." or declare "I'm not going to answer that."; these, at least, openly divulge that no answer is forthcoming. Speaking in a way that may mislead people into thinking you've actually said something is harmful to a constructive process of communication.

 

I'm not going to answer that.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Nor is the palindromedary