TK & Martial Arts?

[Trebuchet]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

First, I want to thank all of you for your input on this discussion.

 

Second, as the player in question, I do have to make some clarifications:

1) the character is SPD 6, not SPD 8.

2) she does have two TK powers: one is 33 STR and one is 10 STR w/ fully Invisible Power Effects and Fine Manipulation. Both of these have a Limitation that they can only be used to simulate "luck." For example, neither can be used to lift a pen off of a table or push a button, they could make the pen start rolling toward the edge of the table and drop onto the button below... This is important because, under most circumstances, she CANNOT use either for a standard attack. A person can't be punched, grabbed, held, or thrown by "luck," though they can trip and fall (Legsweep) or loose their grip on a Focus (Disarm). Block could probably go either way. However, she has to use her normal STR (15) for actual "attacks" with her MA because hitting someone for 33 STR isn't "luck."

Even not taking any of the above into account, if you look at the rule cited on page 230 of reFREd, it says that using MA with TK should require Fine Manipulation. In this case, that means that to use her MA with her TK, she'd actually have to _loose_ a DC - from 15 STR to 10 STR TK, and that she can't use the 33 STR TK w/ MA at all... Thankfully for me, I _never_ intended to use the 33 STR TK with her Martial Arts - it's for causing "lucky" or "unlucky" things to happen, not direct damage.

 

Again, thank to everyone for their input. It's always great to draw on other people's thoughts and experiences.

 

Blackjack

With those clarifications, I'll give provisional assent to the ability. I reserve the right to eliminate it, require changes and/or the purchase of Weapon Element and/or Ranged Martial Maneuvers with it if it proves unbalancing. I will however agree to see how it works in play over a session or two before I decide. Is that reasonable?

 

In many cases, it's not just the TK/MA mix with Jinx that concerns me; but the entire can of worms it opens in our campaign. TK is not that unusual an ability; lots of characters might decide to mix TK with combat maneuvers. If it can be used with martial maneuvers, why not just as logically with standard maneuvers? Should other characters with TK and Martial Arts all gain these abilities even if they lack the fairly strict Limitations on the TK Jinx has?

[dstarfire]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

I recently played a telekinetic and was considering martial manuevers, but discoverd a couple of major drawbacks:

 

1. Even though TK lets you manipulate objects at ranged, it's still limited to range manuvers by default.

 

2. If you want to use melee manuevers at range with TK, you have to buy the ranged advantage for those manuevers, according to the rules in the UMA, which gets expensive REALLY fast.

 

3. TK's have to pay extra even for optional manuevers, including the ever-popular sweep/rapid fire.

 

In the end, my GM vetoed it, but I also abused the heck out of the indirect aspects of TK, beating on opponents four floors up.

[Blackjack]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

With those clarifications' date=' I'll give provisional assent to the ability. I reserve the right to eliminate it, require changes and/or the purchase of Weapon Element and/or Ranged Martial Maneuvers with it if it proves unbalancing. I will however agree to see how it works in play over a session or two before I decide. Is that reasonable?[/quote']

 

I certainly think so...

 

In many cases' date=' it's not just the TK/MA mix with Jinx that concerns me; but the entire can of worms it opens in our campaign. TK is not that unusual an ability; lots of characters might decide to mix TK with combat maneuvers. If it can be used with martial maneuvers, why not just as logically with standard maneuvers? Should other characters with TK and Martial Arts all gain these abilities even if they lack the fairly strict Limitations on the TK Jinx has?[/quote']

 

The rule on reFREd 230 clearly implies that Martial Maneuvers may be allowed because and only because the character does have to pay points to have them. Generally speaking, unless the rules state otherwise, if you've paid full character points for two different things, it makes sense that you should be able to use them both at the same time.

 

Having said all that, I would certainly be cautious about allowing a character who _routinely_ uses TK with MA. If a character fights primarily at range, they should use EB, RKA, and the like...

 

Blackjack

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

 

1. Even though TK lets you manipulate objects at ranged, it's still limited to range manuvers by default.

 

Not necesarily. The basic build of TK is STR bought with the Ranged advantage. Thus it has properties of both Ranged and Hand to Hand attacks.

 

2. If you want to use melee manuevers at range with TK, you have to buy the ranged advantage for those manuevers, according to the rules in the UMA, which gets expensive REALLY fast.

 

I personally don't require this in my games, but its a good system to balance the usefulness of TK Martial Arts.

 

3. TK's have to pay extra even for optional manuevers, including the ever-popular sweep/rapid fire.

 

Again, I don't require this in my games. If its a basic maneuver you don't have to pay points for, TK can handle it. It contradicts the UMA, but then again, I was doing these things (TK Martial Arts) back in the 4th edition days and was nearly lynched on the old Message Boards for suggesting it.

 

In the end, my GM vetoed it, but I also abused the heck out of the indirect aspects of TK, beating on opponents four floors up.

 

Hey, nothing wrong with that. As a GM, if a player comes up with a unique (even if its potentially abusive) use of a power thats perfectly legal, I reward them for it...either in gameplay through exceptional success or via extra XP for a cool idea.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

I .

 

Having said all that, I would certainly be cautious about allowing a character who _routinely_ uses TK with MA. If a character fights primarily at range, they should use EB, RKA, and the like...

 

Blackjack

 

Hey, Darth Vader routinely uses the Choke maneuver (and Martial Crush!) with his TK. Who are you to tell a Dark Lord of the Sith he's gotta switch up to using NND Energy Blast instead of a perfectly good Choke maneuver!

 

Poor Admiral Veers....

[pinecone]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Martial Trip is already allowed for the Gun-Fu writeup in UMA so Martial Throw should be OK. As others have already pointed out' date=' you still subtract any range penalties in addition to manuever penalties when using any of these maneuvers. Also, a Brick is not necessarily going to be affected by a TK Grab if he can beat the Body roll with his [u']casual STR[/u]. Hostage situations should use the rules for 'Cover'. In that sort of situation, the block can't really occur unless the Covering Attacker is somehow distracted.

 

Oh you, misunderstood me....the senario is I TK-Throw the bad guy, then Brick man smashes him while he is prone...it's suprizing how fast that gets old......

[pinecone]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Annother manuver I deceided to disallow was Martial escape at range...I just did not want to mess with it .....

[Blackjack]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Hey, Darth Vader routinely uses the Choke maneuver (and Martial Crush!) with his TK. Who are you to tell a Dark Lord of the Sith he's gotta switch up to using NND Energy Blast instead of a perfectly good Choke maneuver!

 

Poor Admiral Veers....

 

*puffs out his chest, flourishes his cape, and activates Soliloquy Mode*

 

"Who am I?! I am Blackjack... Nerd Master and Middle Finger of the Left Hand of God! BWAHAHAHA!"

 

*This moment of silliness brought to you by the pound sign and the square root of -1.*

 

Blackjack

[Fedifensor]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

I had a wind-based MA villain who had Stretching, Invisible Power Effects. Basically, he used focused wind blasts to hit or trip his opponents.

 

Maybe I'm just too lazy to mess with the TK rules in conjuction with the Martial Arts rules...

[BNakagawa]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

I had a wind-based MA villain who had Stretching, Invisible Power Effects. Basically, he used focused wind blasts to hit or trip his opponents.

 

Maybe I'm just too lazy to mess with the TK rules in conjuction with the Martial Arts rules...

 

Just don't aim a focussed wind blast at anyone with a damage shield...

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

have used and allowed TK and powers to be used with martial arts some times with a MA build for that effect specifically and other times as a Power Element to the MA and i works well for several reasons.

 

The most important thing to realize is you as the GM set damage caps and other limits and if the power does not go over the DC's and CV limits then ultimately its about building a workable concept so everyone can have fun!

[Trebuchet]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

The character in question, Jinx, was given a "test run" in a one-shot scenario a couple of weeks ago; unfortunately while she did get into combat she never got the opportunity to try out the TK/MA combo during the fight to see if it was unbalancing. I'll have to run another adventure for her fairly soon so we can see how it works.

 

I'm still leaning towards requiring Weapon Element on the TK.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

The character in question, Jinx, was given a "test run" in a one-shot scenario a couple of weeks ago; unfortunately while she did get into combat she never got the opportunity to try out the TK/MA combo during the fight to see if it was unbalancing. I'll have to run another adventure for her fairly soon so we can see how it works.

 

I'm still leaning towards requiring Weapon Element on the TK.

 

Always when ever you're using anything external from the MA make it a weapon element or in this case Power Element it's only 1pt any way for each element so come on its what makes you stand out from the other TK wielders that does not have Elements with their TK/MA.

[Fedifensor]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Just don't aim a focussed wind blast at anyone with a damage shield...

That was the weak point of the build. I rationalized it with the damage being feedback, as he "became the wind" to an extent.