TK & Martial Arts?

[Trebuchet]

One of our players has built a martial artist who also happens to have Telekinesis; and would like to be able to use her MA Maneuvers with the TK. On page 230 of 5ER it states this can be allowed "with the GM's permission." I and another GM have some concerns about how unbalancing this may be, but not quite enough to veto it outright. We also trust the player, which goes a long way toward mitigating our concerns. One concern I have is that her TK is 23 higher than her STR, leaving the possibility of doing an extra 4½d6 damage over her straight STR roll at range for free. I thought I'd solicit some input from Herodom Assembled and see if I'm missing something.

 

Has anyone here ever played or allowed a PC with this combination? How did it work out? Was it too effective for the cost, useless, or somewhere in between? What was your experience?

[OddHat]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

When I allowed MA to be used with TK, I ruled that maneuvers add 1 DC to TK damage for every 2 DC added by the maneuver. I also required a 1 point Usable With TK.

 

It worked out fine, and added fun bits of business like TK Block and TK Offensive Strike/Disarm MPAs. Throw in Missile Deflection with a TK SFX and have a very cool Chinese Martial Arts Film power set.

[Robyn]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

One concern I have is that her TK is 23 higher than her STR' date=' leaving the possibility of doing an extra 4½d6 damage over her straight STR roll at range for free.[/quote']

 

If her TK is higher than her STR, why would she be using STR attacks at all? If she has paid for TK that is higher than STR, how is she getting the "4½d6 over STR" for free?

[Cardinal]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Played a character with TK that used martial arts with the TK. It was a blast.

 

When I played the character I had to purchase a 1 pt TK Weapon Element to use the TK, which should not be much of an issue either way.

 

If you are concerned about the excess damage, you may want to consider requiring the play to purchase DCs separately for the TK. Also, are you requiring the player to have the Fine Manipulation adder?

[Trebuchet]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

If her TK is higher than her STR' date=' why would she be using STR attacks at all?[/quote']That's a pretty good question. Why use STR at all when TK does more, and at range to boot?

 

If she has paid for TK that is higher than STR, how is she getting the "4½d6 over STR" for free?

Well, perhaps not "free" but certainly a bargain. No Weapon Element or Weapon Familiarity for using TK with the MA, yet it's not bare hands, offers Range, and greater damage for the reduced cost of an MP slot. My question is really "Will this be unbalancing, or unfair to other players?" What's the downside, or even equivalence, to this attack compared to an EB of equal cost and damage? Could it be Blocked or Missile Deflected?

[Trebuchet]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

When I allowed MA to be used with TK' date=' I ruled that maneuvers add 1 DC to TK damage for every 2 DC added by the maneuver. [b']I also required a 1 point Usable With TK.[/b]

Kindly explain the portion in boldface. Do you mean an Advantage on the MA or TK?

[OddHat]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

That's a pretty good question. Why use STR at all when TK does more, and at range to boot?

 

Well, perhaps not "free" but certainly a bargain. No Weapon Element or Weapon Familiarity for using TK with the MA,

 

Charge for one, or rule that the character must purchase a second MA for TK. Keep the 2 MA DC = 1 TK DC Rider, and point to the rules on ranged MA if the player argues.

 

yet it's not bare hands, offers Range, and greater damage for the reduced cost of an MP slot. My question is really "Will this be unbalancing, or unfair to other players?"

 

Not if you offer them similar chances for interesting and effective builds. At 2 MA DC = 1 TK DC it's not all that much cheaper anyway, though there is some cost savings, and the MPAs are impressive.

 

What's the downside, or even equivalence, to this attack compared to an EB of equal cost and damage? Could it be Blocked or Missile Deflected?

 

See above for comparing it to an EB, and note that you can buy a ranged MA for your EBs if the GM allows. It's a ranged attack and may, imo, be missile deflected.

[casualplayer]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Pretty sure Oddhat means a Weapon Familiarity, like Usable with Clubs, etc.

 

It's no more broken than Stretching martial artists, just so long as you enforce the range modifiers and don't allow Fully Invisible TK MA. Did the second with a villain once and whupped my players so badly that I almost got lynched.

[OddHat]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Pretty sure Oddhat means a Weapon Familiarity, like Usable with Clubs, etc.

 

Yup. Either build the MA so that it only works with TK, or charge 1 point for Usable with TK.

[casualplayer]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

An argument can be made that MA DC would add to TK as they would to advantaged STR, as if they were adding to STR Ranged. So 1 DC would be +1/2d6/+3 STR, 2 DC would be +1d6+1/+7 STR, 3 DC would be +2d6/+10 STR, 4 DC would be +2 1/2d6/+13 STR.

[Robyn]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

That's a pretty good question. Why use STR at all when TK does more' date=' and at range to boot?[/quote']

 

Weapons to double the effective STR for damage?

[ghost-angel]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

I had a TK Character using Martial Arts. After a bit of experimenting we found as long as damage didn't exceed the campaign max (12D6) is wasn't very unbalancing at all.

 

It allows for some interesting and fun tactical dynamics as your Martial Artists is now anywhere on the battlefield they need to be.

 

The idea at one point involved Ranged Skill Levels (as this was under 4E, so no PSLs) and that's when things didn't become unbalanced much, but they definitely tipped in the TKs favor a bit more.

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

As to whether it will be unbalancing, what is her total TK strength, what MA manouvres is she taking and what are the campaign average/maximum DCs?

 

I'd be wary of allowing any manouvre that added to strength for grab/hold purposes, even if it was logically justifyable, and I might be slightly wary of a ranged throw but other than that it is just a question of whether the damage do-able fits under the campaign cap: I'd probably be happy enough to allow it but if it was a first outing for this particular combination I would warn the player that I might re-think my permission of it all seemed a bit too effective or was spoiling the enjoyment of other players.

[Valerious]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

While I haven't dealt with a TK MA, I have both played and GMed stretching Martial Artists. They do present some interesting challenges and can do some cool things, but I didn't consider them unbalancing. I would imagine they are similar in ways. The main difference I can think of is the stretcher doesn't have a range penalty and can benefit from stretching velocity damage, but can't really go beyond the stretching inches purchased, while the TK has effectively much longer range, but has to deal with range penalties. I'd imagine that would even out pretty well.

 

I'd allow it in my game, but like all unfamiliar things, I'd keep a close eye on it. I definately would consider it a separate martial art to do it with TK than with your body. If you use AP limits, I'd also want to consider the total AP used in the attack; if you have a 60 point limit, and it's a 60 poink TK with maneuvers on top of it, it might not necessarily be broken, but I would think that'd indicate somewhere to apply a little more scrutiny.

[BNakagawa]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

martial arts + TK/stretching = useless speedsters.

 

Anyone moving very fast is now set up for martial throws anywhere on the field. Brutal combo, smashing the speedster into the ground right next to the brick...

 

(and with TK, you can maintain the hold, reducing the victim's DCV to garbage while the brick moves in for the kill)

 

My GM won't let me have ranged martial arts.

[pinecone]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

One of our players has built a martial artist who also happens to have Telekinesis; and would like to be able to use her MA Maneuvers with the TK. On page 230 of 5ER it states this can be allowed "with the GM's permission." I and another GM have some concerns about how unbalancing this may be, but not quite enough to veto it outright. We also trust the player, which goes a long way toward mitigating our concerns. One concern I have is that her TK is 23 higher than her STR, leaving the possibility of doing an extra 4½d6 damage over her straight STR roll at range for free. I thought I'd solicit some input from Herodom Assembled and see if I'm missing something.

 

Has anyone here ever played or allowed a PC with this combination? How did it work out? Was it too effective for the cost, useless, or somewhere in between? What was your experience?

 

TK martial arts can get real hairy, but not nessisarily in the obvious places.

In my own experiance, the heartburn is found in Martial throw, and Martial block.

Using those two can make a major change on the flow of battle. They make speedsters an almost suicidal conception, and let the brick smash anyone at 1/2 DCV.....so if a combo of Martial throw at range, and a pushed move-through dosen't scare you, you should be alright......

 

 

 

And geting TK-blocked makes most any hostage cirumstance, an easy fix, instead of a tense negociation....

[casualplayer]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Y'know, there is a reason why Jean Grey was a bad-ass for years with only an 800 lb TK lift. I mean, before she went all Phoenix-y.

 

If the TK MA can hit the Speedster, then I say inexperienced or chumpy speedster. Or maybe the GM might not want to let the TK MA's OCV get up around 15! I've already warned against Invisible TK MA, which is bah-roken!

 

TK MA sure makes it easier to do Darth Vader's force choke also.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

TK martial arts can get real hairy, but not nessisarily in the obvious places.

In my own experiance, the heartburn is found in Martial throw, and Martial block.

Using those two can make a major change on the flow of battle. They make speedsters an almost suicidal conception, and let the brick smash anyone at 1/2 DCV.....so if a combo of Martial throw at range, and a pushed move-through dosen't scare you, you should be alright......

 

 

 

And geting TK-blocked makes most any hostage cirumstance, an easy fix, instead of a tense negociation....

 

Martial Trip is already allowed for the Gun-Fu writeup in UMA so Martial Throw should be OK. As others have already pointed out, you still subtract any range penalties in addition to manuever penalties when using any of these maneuvers. Also, a Brick is not necessarily going to be affected by a TK Grab if he can beat the Body roll with his casual STR. Hostage situations should use the rules for 'Cover'. In that sort of situation, the block can't really occur unless the Covering Attacker is somehow distracted.

[Trebuchet]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Y'know' date=' there [b']is [/b]a reason why Jean Grey was a bad-ass for years with only an 800 lb TK lift. I mean, before she went all Phoenix-y.

 

If the TK MA can hit the Speedster, then I say inexperienced or chumpy speedster. Or maybe the GM might not want to let the TK MA's OCV get up around 15! I've already warned against Invisible TK MA, which is bah-roken!

 

TK MA sure makes it easier to do Darth Vader's force choke also.

The character in question's schtick is luck manipulation; so I don't think of "force choke" was what the player had in mind but more upon the order of a ranged "trip" ability (he's specifically requesting to be allowed to Legsweep with the TK). Since the PC in question has 38 DEX and 8 SPD, CV differences between her and a more traditional speedster are negligible. The trick would be hitting the speedster at range.

 

After reading all this and discussing it with Mentor, I find myself leaning towards requiring the purchase of a Ranged Martial Art maneuver so the TK doesn't come with the full package of MA maneuvers already possessed but only those specific maneuvers she's paid for.

[OddHat]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

After reading all this and discussing it with Mentor, I find myself leaning towards requiring the purchase of a Ranged Martial Art maneuver so the TK doesn't come with the full package of MA maneuvers already possessed but only those specific maneuvers she's paid for.

 

Which makes sense. You'll also want to decide if you're allowing the Martial Arts MPA rules.

[Trebuchet]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Which makes sense. You'll also want to decide if you're allowing the Martial Arts MPA rules.

We already permit that in our campaign. Zl'f used it in our last adventure to take down 3 velociraptors in one Phase. If Zl'f can use it, there's no good reason this character can't.

[OddHat]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

We already permit that in our campaign. Zl'f used it in our last adventure to take down 3 velociraptors in one Phase. If Zl'f can use it' date=' there's no good reason this character can't. [/quote']

 

Groovy. Nothing like a ranged Disarm and Throw to teach gun bunnies the price of an OAF.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

I might also require Fine Work on the TK to use it with MA, after all Martial Arts are supposed to use finesse and precision.

 

I'm not sure what the problem is with TK Martial Block. I assume it's a Martial Block for someone else, right? Is this really any more abusive than TK Regular Block, without MA?

 

I can see how TK Martial Throw (or any Target Falls maneuvers) might be a problem. But the Speedster's high DCV combined with the range mod ought to give him a good fighting chance. And he should have enough SPD that he can afford to Abort to Dodge or Block himself, when he sees those incoming Throws. If you're speeding along and someone throws an obstacle in your path, assuming you see it in time, you ought to be able to go around or over it with only a little loss of movement/momentum.

[Sean Waters]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

Ranged blocks are at -2 - range modifiers, so are not easy anyway (a martial block at range would be -0 OCV).

 

You'd need to be able to perceive the attack, and you'd need to be in the right position to do some sort of intervention.

 

Personally I'd probably only allow it if the character also bought 'missile deflection, useable at range'.

[Blackjack]

Re: TK & Martial Arts?

 

First, I want to thank all of you for your input on this discussion.

 

Second, as the player in question, I do have to make some clarifications:

1) the character is SPD 6, not SPD 8.

2) she does have two TK powers: one is 33 STR and one is 10 STR w/ fully Invisible Power Effects and Fine Manipulation. Both of these have a Limitation that they can only be used to simulate "luck." For example, neither can be used to lift a pen off of a table or push a button, they could make the pen start rolling toward the edge of the table and drop onto the button below... This is important because, under most circumstances, she CANNOT use either for a standard attack. A person can't be punched, grabbed, held, or thrown by "luck," though they can trip and fall (Legsweep) or loose their grip on a Focus (Disarm). Block could probably go either way. However, she has to use her normal STR (15) for actual "attacks" with her MA because hitting someone for 33 STR isn't "luck."

Even not taking any of the above into account, if you look at the rule cited on page 230 of reFREd, it says that using MA with TK should require Fine Manipulation. In this case, that means that to use her MA with her TK, she'd actually have to _loose_ a DC - from 15 STR to 10 STR TK, and that she can't use the 33 STR TK w/ MA at all... Thankfully for me, I _never_ intended to use the 33 STR TK with her Martial Arts - it's for causing "lucky" or "unlucky" things to happen, not direct damage.

 

Again, thank to everyone for their input. It's always great to draw on other people's thoughts and experiences.

 

Blackjack