WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

[nexus]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Well' date=' yeah - but I think the main issue McCoy is having with the situation is that a single work of popular fiction shouldn't have THAT much of an impact. In comparison, other literary works that have had major impact on society (the Koran and the Bible) have had active communities supporting and evangalizing their messages. [b']A Christmas Carol[/b], as currently written, doesn't have that. What changed that made the anti-Christmas Carol so infuential?

 

I know what he's saying and I'm not trying to argue with him. I was actually offering a bit of support for his stance. The books mentioned aren't still in print or have sale because they're particularly influential but because students are made to read them, write reports and quite often promptly forget about them.

 

Edit: OTOH, I see nothing wrong with the thread. Its light hearted seasonal fun. It doesn't make perfect sense, no but once you're brought into super powers, time, actual Spirits of Christmas and cosmic beings is saying that "A Christmas Carol" was pivotal that much more to just handwave?

[Lucius]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

 

 

Okay, let’s play along. Assume an unrepentant, morally unregenerate Scrooge. A man who loves the acquisition and accumulation of his own wealth above all else. What is he going to do, specifically re: Christmas? He’s going to write A Christmas Carol, or a book very like it, or, as I said, hire Dickens to write it for him. He is going to do everything in his power to create Christmas as it currently exists, because Christmas is a means for him and his ilk to acquire obscene profits. Of course, he’ll do a lot of other things too – he’ll notice that Prince Albert is making Christmas Trees popular so he’ll buy some land with evergreens and have them cut down, hauled to London, and sold. He’ll invest in sweatshops making cheap ornaments and toys, and stores to sell them. But the one thing he WON’T do is anything to subvert or undercut the idea of Christmas.

 

Except that's NOT what he's done. He did not commision Dickens to write a book telling people to give others presents so that he could profit. He wrote a book instead (and my apologies if I did not make this clear) that puts down Christmas, charity, and gift-giving.

 

You said that. What you never said was anything that would make it make sense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is ordering something at the soda fountainhead.

[Powerhouse]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Got it. Economics, history, and logic don't apply, it's a dream of sleeping Vishnu. Being a Buddhist and not a Hindu, Dolphin sits down and waits for it to be over.

 

Hey, it's just a comic book

 

You said that. What you never said was anything that would make it make sense.

 

Actually I did, you just didn't agree. In the end, see above for my response to McCoy.

 

And to all, Happy Holidays, Season's Greetings, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwaanza , HHope ya win the Lottery, and whatever I may have missed.

[Lucius]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

 

You said that. What you never said was anything that would make it make sense.

 

Actually I did, you just didn't agree.

 

You were not, in my opinion, very clear - but perhaps that applies to all of us. I know that I have not always understood immediately what McCoy was saying, for example. And his concerns and mine overlap, but are not identical.

 

Upon reflection, I actually withdraw my objection. It is true that Scrooge responds to every "Merry Christmas" with a "Bah Humbug" and his speech and actions reflect not indifference, but irritation and annoyance. As the holiday was growing in significance during his lifetime, it is conceivable that he would eventually feel driven to write such a book as a kind of ultimate "Bah Humbug!" to the world.

 

That still leaves McCoy's objection unanswered - how did the Victorian equivalent to an Ayn Rand novel become so influential?

 

But I can accept that for the sake of the game.

 

Which brings us to the question McCoy and I have in common - this is a bad thing, how? But the answer to THAT could be that these characters don't belong in this scenario. Stormwalker would likely see both worlds as unbalanced, and you'd have to convince him that this one is actually worse for him to want to change it.

 

And even then he would be very reluctant, but for personal reasons. He has reason to believe that if he ever goes back in time, he will end up killing someone and setting in motion a chain of events that will lead to escalating strife and violence. He'd really rather stick to moving forward through time at one second per second along with everyone else.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary, on the other hand, wants to try all three roles.....

[McCoy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

That still leaves McCoy's objection unanswered - how did the Victorian equivalent to an Ayn Rand novel become so influential?

 

But I can accept that for the sake of the game.

At least Dolphin is going to learn a bit of Latin out of this. Cui bono? Who benefits? Being a biologist and not a lawyer, he never needed it before.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Who benefits? My guess is "any infernal or mystical power that favors the degradation of humanity."

 

IOW, start looking for Mephisto or the campaign equivalent.

[McCoy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Who benefits? My guess is "any infernal or mystical power that favors the degradation of humanity."

 

IOW, start looking for Mephisto or the campaign equivalent.

That was Dolphin's thought, but Powerhouse has repetedly said that's not happening.

[Robyn]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Who benefits? My guess is "any infernal or mystical power that favors the degradation of humanity."

 

IOW, start looking for Mephisto or the campaign equivalent.

That was Dolphin's thought, but Powerhouse has repetedly said that's not happening.

 

If you look for Mephisto or an equivalent in the history you remember, of course you won't find the true culprit here:

 

Scrooge.

 

In the old timeline, Ebenezzer chose redemption - but in the new timeline, he became an infernal being that favored the degradation of humanity and wielded mystical power toward that goal. Hence the amazing influence his book has exerted throughout history.

 

Like the Archmage in Gargoyles, his future self has travelled back in time to interfere with the 3 spirits who would otherwise have diverted him from his destiny.

 

But just as surely as Scrooge has bent the law, still he cannot break it; 3 spirits visited his younger self that night, and - in disguise - he approached various heroes from alternate timelines seeking substitutes to take the place of those spirits who originally "saved" him.

[Vondy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Dolphin: "Dude' date=' have you noticed I'm Buddhist? People no longer spend ten percent of the year in an orgy of conspicious consumption, bying material [i']things [/i]for family and friends rathen than spending time with them, and I'm suppost to change that? ¿Por qué?"

 

Heh.

 

Anthem: "I'm Jewish. Happy Channukah. Now tell me, and be honest, what did you guys spike the eggnog with?"

 

He doesn't object, however, if a few members of his government super-spook team, loaded with holiday cheer, look into the matter. Some of them are geared to it (one of them is a very-spooky spirit himself), and sometimes they get tasked with x-files stuff, though their mainline is espionage and black ops. Its in purview and budget. He'd keep tabs on it, but he wouldn't get overly worked up about it. He'd expect at least one "mulder report" and one "scully report" based on the team personalities, as well as one or two agents turning in "tabloid reports," by the time it was over. All of them would be filed away under "head-scratchers," which is the Freedom Patrol's sequestered "what if?" files.

[Vondy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Pinstripe: [shoots scrooge in the back of the head with a .44]

Ghosts: "What?!"

Pinstripe: [shrugs]

[Vondy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

 

Now from a Buddhist perspective, attachment to a material possession, from it's intrensic value or from sentamental value, is a self-destructive trap.

 

Not just Buddhist. Also Toist, Sifu, Confucian, Aristotalean, Natural Moralist, Sikh, Jewish, Muslim, and... Christian. Among others.

 

Materialism for its own sake is a religion in of itself.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

I still fail to see how generous materialism is supposed to be worse than selfish materialism. At least in the normal Christmas version, you can guilt people into helping those in need.

[Vondy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

I still fail to see how generous materialism is supposed to be worse than selfish materialism. At least in the normal Christmas version' date=' you can guilt people into helping those in need.[/quote']

 

Being open handed is, of course, better than being a pinch-faced lickpenny. On the other hand, being open-handed with things is much easier than being open handed with yourself, and barring the things people need to survive, doesn't reach the same exalted level. There's a hassidic maxim that applies: "If good is good, is better not better?"

 

There's a famous mishna at the beginning of Tractate Shabbat that talks about a householder and a poor man at the doorway and deals with the prohibition of transferring objects between the public and private domain on the sabbath. The classic criticism is "look, this is cruel, those Jews are evil misers, how could you refuse to give a poor man charity over something so petty?"

 

The answer, of course is - its very easy to hand a man a piece of bread and send him packing, but what arrogance! You dismissed your brother into the cold and dark on the sabbath with a mere piece of bread?! You should have invited him in, put respectable clothes on his back, and let him enjoy the warmth and light of your table, as well as the same food you fed your family - even if you have to eat less to do it. You should have treated him as one of your own!

 

And if he has a family waiting for him, go and get them! If he can't afford bread, then he can't afford oil to light his table, and they should not sit in darkness. Human contact, making human connections, and being generous with yourself - not just your things - are the key to community and peace.

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Being open handed is' date=' of course, better than being a pinch-faced lickpenny. On the other hand, being open-handed with [i']things[/i] is much easier than being open handed with yourself, and barring the things people need to survive, doesn't reach the same exalted level. There's a hassidic maxim that applies: "If good is good, is better not better?"

 

There's a famous mishna at the beginning of Tractate Shabbat that talks about a householder and a poor man at the doorway and deals with the prohibition of transferring objects between the public and private domain on the sabbath. The classic criticism is "look, this is cruel, those Jews are evil misers, how could you refuse to give a poor man charity over something so petty?"

 

The answer, of course is - its very easy to hand a man a piece of bread and send him packing, but what arrogance! You dismissed your brother into the cold and dark on the sabbath with a mere piece of bread?! You should have invited him in, put respectable clothes on his back, and let him enjoy the warmth and light of your table, as well as the same food you fed your family - even if you have to eat less to do it. You should have treated him as one of your own!

 

And if he has a family waiting for him, go and get them! If he can't afford bread, then he can't afford oil to light his table, and they should not sit in darkness. Human contact, making human connections, and being generous with yourself - not just your things - are the key to community and peace.

 

Entirely understood and agreed. Its just, thats *still* more likely to occur in Normal Christmas World than Bah Humbug World.

[Robyn]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

Entirely understood and agreed. Its just' date=' thats *still* more likely to occur in Normal Christmas World than Bah Humbug World.[/quote']

 

Yes, because the book he commissioned was so effectual upon the billions of people who don't celebrate Christmas

[McCoy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

I still fail to see how generous materialism is supposed to be worse than selfish materialism. At least in the normal Christmas version' date=' you can guilt people into helping those in need.[/quote']

This is because you believe that guilting people into helping those in need is an good thing, and I see it as the end justifying the means.

 

You sould help those in need because they are in need, not to make yourself feel less guilty. Bad karma to help someone because it makes you feel good.

[Vondy]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

You sould help those in need because they are in need, not to make yourself feel less guilty. Bad karma to help someone because it makes you feel good.

 

Worse karma to refuse to help them for the same reason.

[Lucius]

Re: WWYCD: A Christmas Carol, Champions Style!

 

I still fail to see how generous materialism is supposed to be worse than selfish materialism. At least in the normal Christmas version' date=' you can guilt people into helping those in need.[/quote']

 

That's because, like the littlest Who, you look right at the disguised Grinch and think HE is Santa.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that it's time to drop the subject for another year, and threatens to kick me if I don't.