Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

[Spence]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Basically' date=' I think the way the game flows one very quickly realizes it's not as much fun without using complications just as one has the same revelation with HERO. And as far as how the book reads and so on, it pretty much guides people to use those just about as heavily as HERO guides people to doing disads, maybe less directly, MAYBE, but not by much at all. Put it this way, I can't imagine a group in which all PCs wouldn't end up with issues that players voluntarily apply to their characters, I don't see how you'd read the book (even at the most cursory glance) and end up doing otherwise.[/quote']

 

Zornwil, I for one agree with you.

 

But this is back to a un-win'able circular discussion like D&D supplements. No one HAS to use all the ten zillian add on's. And while there are a very small, albet very vocal minority, that don't. The vast majority snap them all up like druggies on crack or CCG boosters. Nothing mandates using Disads in Hero, and from what I can tell from the discussion, M&M doesn't require its version either. But in both cases a good character conception/build will demand them.

 

In the end some will enjoy Hero and some M&M. From a surface glance, I would guess Hero is better for detailed character generation and creating unique abilities while M&M will appeal to those wanting a more structured though limited range of abilities.

 

Of course I really cannot judge until I can actually sit down, read M&M and try a playtest of it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

In the end some will enjoy Hero and some M&M. From a surface glance' date=' I would guess Hero is better for detailed character generation and creating unique abilities while M&M will appeal to those wanting a more structured though limited range of abilities.[/quote']

I'll certainly agree that Hero is the game to use if you want more detail. I'm not sure what you mean by creating unique abilities so I can't agree or disagree there.

 

I know there are many things I can do in M&M that I can't do in Champions [such as absolutes] and many things I can do in M&M as a starting character that I can't do in Champions due to point considerations [Rogue effect, nearly non-missing Omega beams, etc] but I haven't found anything in Champions that I can't do in M&M, yet. The big difference is just the degree of detail. Many thing which're limitations in Champions are really just complications in M&M. A Champions player wants to know how many buttons are on his shirt. An M&M player is just happy to know his character has a shirt.

[Spence]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

I'll certainly agree that Hero is the game to use if you want more detail. I'm not sure what you mean by creating unique abilities so I can't agree or disagree there.

 

I am just generalizing from what I have read. I still need to actually read the book to venture a solid opinion.

 

I know there are many things I can do in M&M that I can't do in Champions [such as absolutes] ......

 

Can you give me an example of what you consider an "absolute"? I have yet to find anything I couldn't do if I tried. I am curious.

[OddHat]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Nearly non-missing Omega beams are easy in HERO, so long as you have a GM willing to allow them; one write up is presented in the USPD, and taking One Hex Area: Accurate and No Range Modifier onto an attack will get you something that hits on anything but a 17-18 for a CV:8 character, at the cost of doing lower damage than a similar active point attack built without those advantages. Power Mimicry is possible at 350 points but can require a complex build, depending on just how much raw power you need to mimic, and will hit an upper limit. Absolutes are tougher in HERO, requiring a GM willing to make use of optional rules or complex builds.

 

Generally I find M&M is better at keeping the mechanics behind the curtain than HERO, which is a plus for new players. HERO is much easier for me to fine tune than M&M, but considering my level of familiarity with HERO that's hardly surprising.

 

I'd warn against conflating Champions (one genre), the Champions Universe (one setting), and HERO (the mechanics). The mechanics can often manage things that are not recommended in a particular genre or setting.

 

Of course, that level of differentiation itself can cause problems in these conversations. If I say "X is possible in Mutants and Masterminds", every M&M player knows what I'm talking about. If I say "X is possible in HERO", it may or may not be in line with the base guidelines for the CU.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Can you give me an example of what you consider an "absolute"? I have yet to find anything I couldn't do if I tried. I am curious.

The most common example is true invulnerability to certain degrees/types of damage. The starting level Human Torch clones can easily be immune to all fire damage, the starting level Superman clones [such as the Paragon from chapter 1] can easily bounce bullets off their eyes, etc. There's no need for rules hand waving or funky builds to try and duplicate that for a starting character. In M&M it's part of the genre so it's simply part of the game.

[OddHat]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

The most common example is true invulnerability to certain degrees/types of damage. The starting level Human Torch clones can easily be immune to all fire damage' date=' the starting level Superman clones [such as the Paragon from chapter 1'] can easily bounce bullets off their eyes, etc. There's no need for rules hand waving or funky builds to try and duplicate that for a starting character. In M&M it's part of the genre so it's simply part of the game.

 

In other words, the rule that "X points grants Invulnerability to Y" is already built into the M&M setting, while in HERO the GM has to decide to bring his preferred optional rule for invulnerability into play.

 

This is a good example of keeping the mechanics behind the curtain, one of M&M's strengths. It's also a good example of HERO's ability to let the GM fine tune the world to his tastes.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Nearly non-missing Omega beams are easy in HERO' date=' so long as you have a GM willing to allow them; one write up is presented in the USPD, and taking One Hex Area: Accurate and No Range Modifier onto an attack will get you something that hits on anything but a 17-18 for a CV:8 character, at the cost of doing lower damage than a similar active point attack built without those advantages.[/quote']

I tried to do the uspd version but found it too cost prohibitive for a starting level character. And while AE 1 hex will give you an attack that is hard to miss with, it won't give you an attack which chases you until you either out run it or it hits you.

 

Generally I find M&M is better at keeping the mechanics behind the curtain than HERO, which is a plus for new players. HERO is much easier for me to fine tune than M&M, but considering my level of familiarity with HERO that's hardly surprising.

The scary part is that the new Ultimate Power book removed the power construct curtain. Some M&M players are having a hard time dealing with that.

 

I'd warn against conflating Champions (one genre), the Champions Universe (one setting), and HERO (the mechanics). The mechanics can often manage things that are not recommended in a particular genre or setting.

That's why I try to say Champions rather then Hero often. M&M's a superhero game. It's not trying to be a universal system. It's not designed for playing a SWAT teams in a maximum security prison [no matter how good Scott's Agents of Freedom book is ]. The mechanics are written to play supers.

 

Of course, that level of differentiation itself can cause problems in these conversations. If I say "X is possible in Mutants and Masterminds", every M&M player knows what I'm talking about. If I say "X is possible in HERO", it may or may not be in line with the base guidelines for the CU.

Very true. Unfortunately I'm starting to see a lot more of that on the M&M forum now. Champions players bring their Champions mindsets to the M&M forum, and that tends to cause some confusion with the crowd who really isn't use to effects based building.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

In other words' date=' the optional rule that "X points grants Invulnerability to Y" is already built into the setting, while in HERO the GM has to decide to bring his preferred optional rule for invulnerability into play.[/quote']

Again, that's because M&M's a superhero game. It doesn't need to try and be anything else. It's rules are built for superhero emulation. True20 is a different fish.

[Shaft]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

The most common example is true invulnerability to certain degrees/types of damage. The starting level Human Torch clones can easily be immune to all fire damage' date=' the starting level Superman clones [such as the Paragon from chapter 1'] can easily bounce bullets off their eyes, etc. There's no need for rules hand waving or funky builds to try and duplicate that for a starting character. In M&M it's part of the genre so it's simply part of the game.

 

I don't know much about M&M, but is it 100% invulnerability? If so, how do you "beat" it?

 

In Hero, the best equivalent I can think of is an always on Desolid with the limitation only to prevent damage (not too pass through obkects). The character would have to take "affects real world" advantage on his STR and other attacks. The character would still be affected by attacks made by other appropriately desolid characters or attacks with the affects desolid advantage.

 

Or assign a value to 100% damage reduction.

[OddHat]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

I tried to do the uspd version but found it too cost prohibitive for a starting level character. And while AE 1 hex will give you an attack that is hard to miss with' date=' it won't give you an attack which chases you until you either out run it or it hits you.[/quote']

 

The USPD version has to be scaled down for a 350 point character, but I've seen it work well on 60 active points in my own games.

 

If you want to give the target a chance to escape through The Chase Until It Hits aspect using the 1 Hex Area option, you could use the Dive For Cover maneuver (allowing the target to try to "run"); still, you'd be better off with the USPD version in that case.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

I don't know much about M&M' date=' but is it 100% invulnerability? If so, how do you "beat" it?[/quote']

The advantage to M&M is instantaneous full power power stunts. Maybe you can't burn inferno guy with your hellfire but you can instantly change the power to melt the asphalt beneath his feet causing a full power entangle. How you beat someone in the game's the same dilemma in the comics. You end up using your powers in creative ways rather then trying to win through pure brute force.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Overall I think the thread's getting sidetracked with the same topics this subject always gets sidetracked with. It's not really about which game is better. Both games work equally well. It just comes down to the level of detail you want in a game. Some prefer the cloaked versatility of M&M and others prefer the obvious versatility of Hero. I happen to prefer M&M for supers because I find it to be more in tune with the comic book genre then Champions. There are other genres I'd use Hero for [like the SWAT game I mentioned above].

[Shaft]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Overall I think the thread's getting sidetracked with the same topics this subject always gets sidetracked with. It's not really about which game is better. Both games work equally well. It just comes down to the level of detail you want in a game. Some prefer the cloaked versatility of M&M and others prefer the obvious versatility of Hero. I happen to prefer M&M for supers because I find it to be more in tune with the comic book genre then Champions. There are other genres I'd use Hero for [like the SWAT game I mentioned above].

 

The important thing is that we all agree that they both beat Villains & Vigilantes.

[5 Sided D6]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

I have both M&M 1e and 2e and pretty much every Hero book ever published (sad I know). The "true Invulnerability" question came up with me as well. In Hero the best way (I have found at least) is to use the Force Wall construct from Ultimate Brick. If you make it inherent and say, only good vs Fire or Cold, ect it is not that exspensive to get pretty much Invulnarable to something. Now you may violate some active point caps, if your campaign has them) so it will be up to your GM to approve it but I have never found it to be bad. You have to buy Indirect for you own powers to go thru (we usually just tack on another +1/4 to +1/2 advantage to let all your own abilities thru).

 

Even the 'Can't hurt me' power from Ultimate Brick made persistant is 55 Points. Anything doing 12 Body or less is stopped cold, seems pretty much just like the Impervious ability in M&M, almost identical in fact.

 

Invunlability to Fire-

Force Wall (0 Pd, 20 ED), 2" long (Sufficient to completely surround characters body), Reduced End (0 End, +1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Hardened (+1/4), Inherent (+1/4). (130 Active points):Always on (-0, not really disadvantage), No Range (-1/2),Self Only (-1/2), Restricted Shape (-1/4,Always surrounds character and conforms to his body), Only vs Fire (-1). Total Cost: 40 Points.

 

Now is he completely invulnerable?, No but he can ignore anything less than a 21 Body Fire attack, while I can't speak for anyone elses campaign that covers pretty much any Fire Damage in my campaign.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Even the 'Can't hurt me' power from Ultimate Brick made persistant is 55 Points. Anything doing 12 Body or less is stopped cold' date=' seems pretty much just like the Impervious ability in M&M, almost identical in fact.[/quote']

I'd first say that your version, like Steve's, forgot to add in the +1 invisible advantage listed in the description. The second thing I'd ask is if someone really wants to spend 1/7th of their total points to bounce 12 body attacks when probably most of the badguys you're going to fight are going to do more than 12d6 [and it'd be a lot more expensive if you add in the invisible addy]?

 

Invunlability to Fire-

Force Wall (0 Pd, 20 ED), 2" long (Sufficient to completely surround characters body), Reduced End (0 End, +1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Hardened (+1/4), Inherent (+1/4). (130 Active points):Always on (-0, not really disadvantage), No Range (-1/2),Self Only (-1/2), Restricted Shape (-1/4,Always surrounds character and conforms to his body), Only vs Fire (-1). Total Cost: 40 Points.

You'd also need to throw in the transparent to physical addy, as well as the indirect addy on all your attack powers. And then you're going to get back to that question about whether or not you really want to spend such a large chunk of your 350 points on a single ability.

 

There's not doubt that there's ways to do it in Hero. The trick is to be able to do it at a reasonable cost and not requiring to break the rules in order for it to work.

[redner]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Looking to start a Superhero game with a new group. Only 2 of us have ever played with the Hero system. In your opinions what system would be easier on new players? What one is better for character development? Thanks for any replys.

 

Before I was "into" the Hero System, I've REALLY tried M&M. For the life of me, I could NOT figure out their math. Frustrated, I turn to GURPS. I liked their math, but could NOT understand/accept "GURPS Powers" book. Finally, tried Hero System. Loved the math (ie understandable). And I was very impress with their concepts of 1) Power Frameworks, 2) Damage Class, 3) game Turns, Segments, Phases, 4) two "Hit Points" (Stun & Body) system, 5) Special Effects, and 6) combat.

 

So, to answer your questions. Which system will be easy for noobs? Well, that depends on how far the GM will go to hold a noob's hand. In one extreme, players don't need to read the rules and let the GM do all the work. A GM could supply players a catalog of heroes to choose from and not let them modify the stats. And combat can then be done verbally without miniatures. The GM would have to be REALLY good at storytelling.

 

If a noob is willing to do some work, I say let them start reading the Sidekick book first. It's a good book for new players, IMO.

 

As for your second question. Hero has a better character development system. Power Framework is really cool and logical.

 

And another thing (this may be a turn-off for new players), FRED reads like a computer manual which I like very much.

 

-

[Spence]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

And another thing (this may be a turn-off for new players), FRED reads like a computer manual which I like very much.

-

 

Naw.... Its just a wee bit dry

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

I've REALLY tried M&M. For the life of me' date=' I could NOT figure out their math.[/quote']

Ok, sorry, but I have to ask. You can easily multiply and divide fractions but you found adding +1 or subtracting -1 to the cost of a power confusing?

 

Hero: 8d6 energy blast [area effect: +1, armor piercing: +1/2, no range: -1/2] = 67 points.

M&M: blast 8 (costs 2 points per rank) [area: +1, penetrating: +1, no range: -1] = 24 points [8 ranks @ 3 points each].

 

You're probably the first person I ever saw say that.

[redner]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Ok, sorry, but I have to ask. You can easily multiply and divide fractions but you found adding +1 or subtracting -1 to the cost of a power confusing?

 

Hero: 8d6 energy blast [area effect: +1, armor piercing: +1/2, no range: -1/2] = 67 points.

M&M: blast 8 (costs 2 points per rank) [area: +1, penetrating: +1, no range: -1] = 24 points [8 ranks @ 3 points each].

 

You're probably the first person I ever saw say that.

 

I was doing the math in some of their heroes/villains to test my reading comprehension. My numbers didn't equate. With Hero, all my numbers (so far) equated. I trust the "integrity" of Hero's than M&M's system.

 

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[zornwil]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

I tried to do the uspd version but found it too cost prohibitive for a starting level character. And while AE 1 hex will give you an attack that is hard to miss with, it won't give you an attack which chases you until you either out run it or it hits you.

 

 

The scary part is that the new Ultimate Power book removed the power construct curtain. Some M&M players are having a hard time dealing with that.

 

 

That's why I try to say Champions rather then Hero often. M&M's a superhero game. It's not trying to be a universal system. It's not designed for playing a SWAT teams in a maximum security prison [no matter how good Scott's Agents of Freedom book is ]. The mechanics are written to play supers.

 

 

Very true. Unfortunately I'm starting to see a lot more of that on the M&M forum now. Champions players bring their Champions mindsets to the M&M forum, and that tends to cause some confusion with the crowd who really isn't use to effects based building.

What's unfortunate around that last bit? Just wondering.

[zornwil]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

I was doing the math in some of their heroes/villains to test my reading comprehension. My numbers didn't equate. With Hero, all my numbers (so far) equated. I trust the "integrity" of Hero's than M&M's system.

 

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I think this was just a 1e problem, and some of it, IIRC, was due to actual mistakes in at least a couple sample characters, plus the system didn't make it transparent on the sheets as to how some of those numbers came up. Very annoying, I know. I figured it out but it was a hassle. I believe that's been fixed in 2e with increased transparency in the character examples or better examples in the book (which I have only glanced through and need to revisit).

[5 Sided D6]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

And then you're going to get back to that question about whether or not you really want to spend such a large chunk of your 350 points on a single ability.

 

There's not doubt that there's ways to do it in Hero. The trick is to be able to do it at a reasonable cost and not requiring to break the rules in order for it to work.

You are correct did forget the Transparent adv. With that total cost comes to 48 points. You are correct not cheap, I was just showing how.

 

I guess its a matter of choice about the Invisble Power affects. Without it, yes it would mean you would have to have some special effect that would be visible (I personally wouldn't worry about it).

 

Being able to ignore up to 12 body attacks is still pretty good, can you still be hurt? Of course, but it will still mean you can ignore alot of attacks (an average 12d6 attack or less). Points wise 1/7 is almost the same as M&M, 10 Impervious Protection is 20 points, out of 150.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

What's unfortunate around that last bit? Just wondering.

Hero players have a certain mindset that seems to like to make things more complicated then they need to be. M&M's a game that thrives on simplicity and player/gm interaction. Often those two things don't match. Hero players spend a lot of time trying to deconstruct every aspect of the game. That usually just ends up confusing the non Hero gamers who couldn't care less how something was built, but only care how it works.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

Points wise 1/7 is almost the same as M&M' date=' 10 Impervious Protection is 20 points, out of 150.[/quote']

Not really because the impervious part would only cost 10 points. You'd still have the toughness whether you were impervious or not just as in your can't touch me example where, the brick in question would still have additional pd and ed under the force wall [probably at least another 15-20 points in each]. And the can't touch me example would still require you to purchase indirect on your strength to be able to attack with it on as well.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Champions Or Mutants & Masterminds?

 

You know, I hate to say it, but isn't there some other uber long thread on this already? Guy asked "which is better" and the answer is "whichever you're more comfortable with." We don't need TWO "Hero vs. M&M" threads.

 

Eesh.