Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

[zornwil]

Whoops, edited -

 

OddHat proposed an interesting idea - see http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1249487&postcount=20

 

Basically, what I'm specifically addressing here is his comment that one could recreate Adjustments to be regular powers with an Advantage of "affects a charateristic/power instead of the character" and target, for example, STR or the like. Absorption would replace Transfer. You might translate STUN damage into suppression of the power with BOD damage as the actual elimination (with later healing) of it.

 

Any ideas as to how this might work? I know I'm posting the thread so should provide some sort of initial construction but at the moment just sort of musing on it and wondering if others have muses.

 

This said, let me state clearly that, at least until something develops that looks like a halfway workable proposal, I am not whatsoever promoting this per se - I just want to think about it and see if it's even possible. So right now my approach is really just "how could it reasonably work, is it feasible" not "should it be done." And I realize that even if we figure out how it could reasonably work, it simply might not be a good idea for a variety of reasons.

[OddHat]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Sean proposed (and himself naysayed) an interesting idea - see http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1249785&postcount=38

 

No he didn't. I proposed it Here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1249487&postcount=20

I've thought a bit about just dumping adjustment powers in favor of EBs with a +1/4 advantage "Alternate Stat Targeted". The "EB Versus Stat" goes up against standard PD or ED unless purchased as an NND or AVLD. Calculate "Stun" and "Body" normally. "Stun" is the number of Active points you lose but regain at a rate of REC per turn. "Body" that gets through reflects a loss of active points has to be healed at REC/10 per day (faster with Healing).

 

Want to use a nerve strike that weakens your foe? EB vs STR (+1/4). Want Power Damping Gas? EB NND versus Power or Category of Powers (as per the advantage currently used for adjustment powers).

 

Healing is purchased as REC usable by others, Succor or Aid as X points of the power or stat in question usable by others, advantages and limits added as appropriate.

 

Haven't play tested it, but it feels easier to fit into appropriate SFX for me than the current system.

[zornwil]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

No he didn't. I proposed it Here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1249487&postcount=20

Sorry, corrected.

[OddHat]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Sorry' date=' corrected.[/quote']

 

No worries.

[zornwil]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

One comment is that REC might become too valuable and get bumped up. I have a house rule that REC is applied for Adjustment powers but found that as campaigns got higher-powered REC became too good a deal. The players forgot the rule anyway and in the last couple combats were just doing 5 REC. I didn't "correct" them since I was observing it was working better in play. I'm still conflicted - I think the flat rate is a bit merciless and anti-HERO but at the same time REC might be too good a deal.

 

Maybe REC/2 or such?

[zornwil]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Also, as to suppression or such, use Entangle, targetted against a char. The Entangle restrains the ability without actually damaging it.

 

As mentioned in my first post above, Absorption replaces Transfer.

 

My question to the public - what can we NOT do with Oddhat's approach?

[Fireleaper]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

How would you do a power similar to this:

 

1d6 Aid, +24 maximum effect, Continuous (+1), 4 stats simultaneously (+1), Decreased fade rate (1/minute, +1/4); 71 Active; Self only(-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Guestures (-1/4), Costs END to activate (-1/4), x4 END (-1 1/2), Full Phase to activate (-1/4) END: 28, Real cost: 18.

 

Admittedly it is not a common model of the power, but it is still legal in the current rules.

[OddHat]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

How would you do a power similar to this:

 

1d6 Aid, +24 maximum effect, Continuous (+1), 4 stats simultaneously (+1), Decreased fade rate (1/minute, +1/4); 71 Active; Self only(-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Guestures (-1/4), Costs END to activate (-1/4), x4 END (-1 1/2), Full Phase to activate (-1/4) END: 28, Real cost: 18.

 

Admittedly it is not a common model of the power, but it is still legal in the current rules.

 

You'd buy the four characteristics you wanted to aid at +30 each in a compound power, drop the continuous and self only (as they're part of the way characteristics already work), a custom limitation to reflect the fact that they only reached +30 potency after 10 phases (the length of time needed to use aid with standard effect to add 30 points), no figured characteristics, and the other limits as they stand. The active point total would be 120 instead of 71, but that's not a drawback; it's a reflection of the real value of the stats you're adding.

 

Buying "Aid" as limited characteristics or as characteristics usable by others reduces the use of Aid to get back more active points than you've actually spent.

[zornwil]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

I thought this deserved emphasis, bolding my own:

 

The active point total would be 120 instead of 71' date=' but that's not a drawback; [b']it's a reflection of the real value of the stats you're adding.[/b]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

How would you do a power similar to this:

 

1d6 Aid, +24 maximum effect, Continuous (+1), 4 stats simultaneously (+1), Decreased fade rate (1/minute, +1/4); 71 Active; Self only(-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Guestures (-1/4), Costs END to activate (-1/4), x4 END (-1 1/2), Full Phase to activate (-1/4) END: 28, Real cost: 18.

 

Admittedly it is not a common model of the power, but it is still legal in the current rules.

 

Doesn't "costs END to activate" halve the limitation for increased END? I'm not sure that's been taken into account above.

 

As Aid is an attack power, does making it Continuous remove the need to use an attack action each phase to utilize it (isn't that what Uncontrolled is for)? If not, this power would need an attack action each phase to beef up the stats, further limiting the "buy the characteristics" approach.

 

BTW the suggested power using Characteristics is not a precise match. The +1 "any four characteristics" allows the characteristics selected to be changed at the user's discretion each time Aid is used. The suggested model hardwires the four characteristics which can be aided.

[OddHat]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

As Aid is an attack power, does making it Continuous remove the need to use an attack action each phase to utilize it (isn't that what Uncontrolled is for)?

 

Continuous does in fact remove the need to make the attack roll each phase. Uncontrolled means that you don't have to maintain the power; you fire, sink in the END you need to spend, and let go.

 

If not, this power would need an attack action each phase to beef up the stats, further limiting the "buy the characteristics" approach.

 

It doesn't limit the "buy the characteristics" approach at all; characteristics are already continuous, and don't need the advantage.

 

BTW the suggested power using Characteristics is not a precise match.

 

Of course not. The limitations and advantages can be made almost exactly the same in terms of what happens in game, but there will be differences in price and design.

 

The +1 "any four characteristics" allows the characteristics selected to be changed at the user's discretion each time Aid is used. The suggested model hardwires the four characteristics which can be aided.

 

I consider that a positive, not a negative. You could use a Multipower of characteristics to simulate the ability to mix and match without getting as much of a point break as the one built into the "Any, Any Two, Any Four, All" structure. If you wanted the full point savings you could use a VPP or simply apply the +1/4, +1/2, +1, +2 to the base cost of one stat; I'd rather not take that route, despite the virtue of simplicity.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Too tired to respond thoughtfully at the moment, but looks like an interesting alternative.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Continuous does in fact remove the need to make the attack roll each phase. Uncontrolled means that you don't have to maintain the power; you fire' date=' sink in the END you need to spend, and let go.[/quote']

 

Maybe I'm misrecalling, but I thought the Continuous attack power didn't require a roll to hit in the next phase, but still requiresd some use of the character's time to maintain (whether a half phase action or a half phase attack action). I'll try to remember to look that up when I get home.

 

It doesn't limit the "buy the characteristics" approach at all; characteristics are already continuous, and don't need the advantage.

 

If the character needs to sacrifice a half phase for ten phaqses, I'd consider that limiting. If not, I agree there's no limitation.

 

Of course not. The limitations and advantages can be made almost exactly the same in terms of what happens in game, but there will be differences in price and design.

 

The difference I was citing was a difference in effect.

 

I consider that a positive, not a negative. You could use a Multipower of characteristics to simulate the ability to mix and match without getting as much of a point break as the one built into the "Any, Any Two, Any Four, All" structure. If you wanted the full point savings you could use a VPP or simply apply the +1/4, +1/2, +1, +2 to the base cost of one stat; I'd rather not take that route, despite the virtue of simplicity.

 

The issue was whether there were things your Adjustment Power model could not accomplish which the present rules allow for. Whether those abilities are costed appropriately is, in my view, a separate issue. Under your model, how would I build the ability to add 2d6 to any four characteristics of anyone, with the ability to choose which characteristics with each use of the power?

 

What if, rather than 4 characteristics (which at least are a finite and identifiable group), I can Aid, or Drain, any four fire-based abilities?

[OddHat]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Maybe I'm misrecalling' date=' but I thought the Continuous attack power didn't require a roll to hit in the next phase, but still requiresd some use of the character's time to maintain (whether a half phase action or a half phase attack action). I'll try to remember to look that up when I get home.[/quote']

 

Continuous just makes a power constant. 5thER, p.98-99. You need to spend the END every phase, otherwise using a continuous power takes no more time than using your Force Field or any other constant power.

 

If the character needs to sacrifice a half phase for ten phaqses, I'd consider that limiting. If not, I agree there's no limitation.

 

There is no limitation.

 

The difference I was citing was a difference in effect.

 

You will see differences in game effect unless you use limits and advantages to eliminate them; sometimes, some of those limits may need to be custom. The core game element of adding or removing characteristics or powers is not difficult to achieve.

 

The issue was whether there were things your Adjustment Power model could not accomplish which the present rules allow for. Whether those abilities are costed appropriately is, in my view, a separate issue.

 

If you'd like to take cost out of the equation, feel free.

 

Under your model, how would I build the ability to add 2d6 to any four characteristics of anyone, with the ability to choose which characteristics with each use of the power?

 

Note that you specified the current rules, with no custom advantages or limitations.

 

You'd use a VPP, limited appropriately as to types of powers; within that VPP, you'd have a bunch of compound powers that looked like this:

Aid to four characteristics: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 40 Real Cost) +12 STR, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10) plus +4 DEX, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10) plus +6 CON, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10) plus +6 BODY, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10)

 

You can't get the random effect without a custom limit, but you can use Gradual Effect to require the "Aid" to build up over a turn, minute, or what have you.

 

What if, rather than 4 characteristics (which at least are a finite and identifiable group), I can Aid, or Drain, any four fire-based abilities?

 

Exactly the same as above, just change the power type limits on the VPP.

[zornwil]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

For that matter, why not just add some new Advantage such as "May affect multiple chars/powers" or "powers of a certain SFX" or so on? I imagine it could be balanced somehow. I do think we'd desire some elegance in design.

 

PS - as an aside, of course anything Continuous is really dangerous and IIRC that ability has at least a warning if not a stop sign on it, so any discussions involving it are rather abstract as such abilities may or may not fly in any given campaign, in a manner much more suspect than even Adjustment powers as they stand.

[schir1964]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

I've stayed out of this thread in order to keep from derailing it from the original focus. Many of the ideas expressed here have been brought up before. Here's some threads that dicussed various aspects of Adjustment Powers and can be used to mine other possible ideas that are applicable.

 

[thread=31336]Adjustment Powers[/thread]

[thread=29801]Adjustment Reserve[/thread]

[thread=23110]Damage Shield[/thread]

 

The one starts out with Damage Shield but quickly devolves into the cost analysis of Adjustment Powers.

 

Zornwil already knows my thoughts on Adjustment Powers all too well. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

You'd use a VPP, limited appropriately as to types of powers; within that VPP, you'd have a bunch of compound powers that looked like this:

Aid to four characteristics: (Total: 60 Active Cost, 40 Real Cost) +12 STR, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10) plus +4 DEX, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10) plus +6 CON, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10) plus +6 BODY, Usable By Other (+¼) (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-½) (Real Cost: 10)

 

You can't get the random effect without a custom limit, but you can use Gradual Effect to require the "Aid" to build up over a turn, minute, or what have you.

 

Exactly the same as above, just change the power type limits on the VPP.

 

Under the current model, once the character has Aided FireLad's flight, EB, Force Field and Flash, he can now change the four powers and Aid his RKA, Suppress Fire Powers and pick another two fire powers. Your model does not permit this.

 

A better illustration of this loss is a character who can enhance a single Fire-based power at a time, and then move on to enhance a second one, rather than being able to manage four at once, then pick another four. This character essentially needs an infinite VPP under your model.

[OddHat]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Under the current model' date=' once the character has Aided FireLad's flight, EB, Force Field and Flash, he can now change the four powers and Aid his RKA, Suppress Fire Powers and pick another two fire powers. Your model does not permit this.[/quote']

 

Sure it does. He just has to Aid the previously Aided powers less.

 

A better illustration of this loss is a character who can enhance a single Fire-based power at a time, and then move on to enhance a second one, rather than being able to manage four at once, then pick another four. This character essentially needs an infinite VPP under your model.

 

Only if he wants to hand out an infinite number of points. The character has a top limit he can provide under my model; That isn't a bug, it's a feature.

 

However, you could always allow a custom version of Uncontrolled to give "duration".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

Sure it does. He just has to Aid the previously Aided powers less.

 

A requirement not present in the current system. In addition, a character with Aid under the current system can Aid any number of people. It sounds like, under your system, he can only Aid the number he's purchased UBO for.

 

Note that I'm not assessing whether a restriction on adjustment powers' ability to add (or deduct) theoretically unlimited points. I am, however, asserting that there are things this proposed new approach does not allow, which the current approach does, contrary to an earlioer comment that this revised system allowed all the same possibilities.

[OddHat]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

A requirement not present in the current system. In addition' date=' a character with Aid under the current system can Aid any number of people. It sounds like, under your system, he can only Aid the number he's purchased UBO for.[/quote']

 

That would be correct. However, nothing stops him from buying UBO in the hundreds, thousands, or billions, save the point limits of the campaign.

 

You did suggest taking costs off the table.

 

Note that I'm not assessing whether a restriction on adjustment powers' ability to add (or deduct) theoretically unlimited points. I am, however, asserting that there are things this proposed new approach does not allow, which the current approach does, contrary to an earlioer comment that this revised system allowed all the same possibilities.

 

Was that my comment? If so, I'd say that from a practical in-game perspective, it does allow say a single mage to cast a spell that gives character points to an army, everyone on a planet, or everyone in the universe. He'd just need to buy enough Usable By Others to cover that number of targets. He can still aid others to the tune of unlimited points, so long as he spends enough points on the power. What he loses is the ability to as easily get back more points from Aid then he spent, especially when he applies an aid to himself or any single character; a mechanics level change. The costs and mechanics are different; the effect in game, if the character has the points to spend, appear the same.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Completely rearranging Adjustment powers -

 

I hate the bookkeeping of Adjustment Powers. I'd rather see them all-or-nothing, as in they work for a while then disappear. Sure, that may not mimic a comic book somewhere, but damn! tracking all that garbage is cumbersome!

 

Oh, yeah. Uh, original topic.... umm, sure. What he said.