Parasite/Rogue Effect

[Guest TheUnknown]

I believe transform your powers to mine is very legit mechanical build since in a published hero supliment has a transform my mind to you body in existence. now in conjunction with this I believe a transfer or drain should be bought and the method of the transform healing back is based on the return rate of the adjustment power Ie if you lose 5pts per hour and it takes 1ohrs to lose all the points gained then that targets abilities would return at the end of that 10 hours. or have heal back simply base oo contact, the longer The target is touched the longer they are without powers in addtion to natural Recovery based healing not regen or healing this simulated Ms marvel being touched to long b rogue and the body done put her in a coma that took her a long time to recover from by her natural recovery.

 

In retrospec I suppose certain sfx heals or the like could wake you up and restore targets power but for the purpose of the transform you dont lose what you gained until they officially gain all the body back from the inital transform through natural recovery.

 

Any input, suggestions, compliments or insults please feel free to post here! I love you and there's not a thing you can do about it!

[pinecone]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Sounds good...you can use a VPP, first transform You> you without cool powers...then Copy the powers just flushed.....maybe use partial effect to make it more affordable...flush some powers,copy them, flush more, copy the rest.

 

The Transform heals back a rate simular to trnsfer, or normally in severe cases...(like say a critical success of some sort)

 

Sounds totally "doable"

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Thanks for the compliment!

[radioKAOS]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

I believe transform your powers to mine is very legit mechanical build since in a published hero supliment has a transform my mind to you body in existence. now in conjunction with this I believe a transfer or drain should be bought and the method of the transform healing back is based on the return rate of the adjustment power Ie if you lose 5pts per hour and it takes 1ohrs to lose all the points gained then that targets abilities would return at the end of that 10 hours. or have heal back simply base oo contact, the longer The target is touched the longer they are without powers in addtion to natural Recovery based healing not regen or healing this simulated Ms marvel being touched to long b rogue and the body done put her in a coma that took her a long time to recover from by her natural recovery.

 

In retrospec I suppose certain sfx heals or the like could wake you up and restore targets power but for the purpose of the transform you dont lose what you gained until they officially gain all the body back from the inital transform through natural recovery.

 

Any input, suggestions, compliments or insults please feel free to post here! I love you and there's not a thing you can do about it!

 

please clarify. You cannot use a transform to transform yourself.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Sure ya can... Ya just wave yer hand about, use yer magic GM powers, and presto - you can use transform on yourself.

 

 

-No sacred cows here...CraterMaker

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

You're not transforming yourself you're transforming the target making their powers your powers. There is a official 5th build that has a transform your mind to my body and mine to yours so it's as legal and mechanically correct as that build!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

... Lemme make sure I understand. You're suggesting that the power be built as a Transform, and that the nature of said Transform is ... you into me? What?

 

No. That's not how Transform works, sacred cow or no. The way Parasite/Rogue has always been built is as a VPP -- the example is in the book somewhere, it's probably the greatest PIA of all the power replications, but it can be done under RAW.

 

But this whole transform me to you while no one's looking thing doesn't seem vaguely legal to me. Perhaps I just don't understand, but my instincts all tell me the same thing:

 

"It might work for you in your game, but never for me in mine."

[OddHat]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

The Mind Transfer power is a Transform with a Side Effect. Your target gains your mind, you (as a side effect) gain your target's mind. It's a controversial build, but it is official.

 

Using it for Rogue like powers allows you to gain powers, a positive benefit, from a side effect, a limitation. That violates the spirit of the rules; I wouldn't allow it.

 

I'd handle a power stealing character with a Transform (Target with powers into Target without powers) and a VPP, Multiform Only, Only form of self plus powers of Duplicated Character. Relatively easy to put together even on 350 points.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

... Lemme make sure I understand. You're suggesting that the power be built as a Transform, and that the nature of said Transform is ... you into me? What?

 

No. That's not how Transform works, sacred cow or no. The way Parasite/Rogue has always been built is as a VPP -- the example is in the book somewhere, it's probably the greatest PIA of all the power replications, but it can be done under RAW.

 

But this whole transform me to you while no one's looking thing doesn't seem vaguely legal to me. Perhaps I just don't understand, but my instincts all tell me the same thing:

 

"It might work for you in your game, but never for me in mine."

 

It's must be to complicated for you to crasp what the effect is but it's doesnt matter because that's what's so wonderful about hero system and GM's you can have a legal build for all intensive purposes but if the GM says no or its not allowed in his game then presto it's outed or illegal for their game nothing to argue about but VPP does not do justice or come close to producing the actual sfx of Rogue or Parasite!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

I think I've just been insulted. It must be too complicated for me to crasp, eh? Okie doke, well, good luck with that.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

It's must be to complicated for you to crasp what the effect is but it's doesnt matter because that's what's so wonderful about hero system and GM's you can have a legal build for all intensive purposes but if the GM says no or its not allowed in his game then presto it's outed or illegal for their game nothing to argue about but VPP does not do justice or come close to producing the actual sfx of Rogue or Parasite!

 

Really Unknown, you shouldn't start insulting people because they are having a hard time understanding what you are saying. We are also having a hard time seeing how your explanation fits under the rules. I think that's partially because of the 'run on sentence' structure of your posts. I am having a hard time understanding where your emphasis is, which is why I asked for clarification.

 

I can see the build you are talking about, but I disagree that it's the proper way to do it. In other words, just because Steve Long writes it, doesn't make it work for me. Oddhat has a perfectly acceptable way of creating this effect, and it works well under the rules.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

See, I can't even understand really what's being said, which is why I asked "Are you saying this? If so, then this." That wasn't quite the response I got in return, though. Thanks, KAOS.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

To actually answer the question in, er, question ...

 

A character in Evil Unleashed, Eclipse, has this basic ability. It's bought as a large Variable Power Pool, only for MUltiforms with limitation that make it copy anybody she touches skin-to-skin, with a huge Suppress of all superpowers linked to it.

 

P.S. Spend a few experience points on KS: Rules of Grammar and Punctuation, please?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

If it's a villain, it just happens. I'm perfectly fine with plot devices as NPCs. For Heroes, I'd go with a suppress/vpp combination, after exhausting myself trying to convince the player to choose another concept.

 

Keith "Mister Simple" Curtis

[radioKAOS]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

See' date=' I can't even understand really what's being said, which is why I asked "Are you saying this? If so, then this." That wasn't quite the response I got in return, though. Thanks, KAOS.[/quote']

 

I just calls it like it is.

 

No harm, no foul, and not trying to be a jerk or anything.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

To actually answer the question in, er, question ...

 

A character in Evil Unleashed, Eclipse, has this basic ability. It's bought as a large Variable Power Pool, only for MUltiforms with limitation that make it copy anybody she touches skin-to-skin, with a huge Suppress of all superpowers linked to it.

 

P.S. Spend a few experience points on KS: Rules of Grammar and Punctuation, please?

 

I Have done the multiform mimic concept, the problem is multiform in any frame work especially VPP is really a no no and up to the GM if he'll wave that rule. The 2nd problem with you surpress additive is that once you change forms the surpress is no longer constant because the form that had it is no longer there so the targets powers would begin to return at what ever fade rate you bought unless the power was a continueous charge or a continueous uncontrolled effect either way I would not call your concpt build junk just pointing out the mechanical build faults.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Really Unknown, you shouldn't start insulting people because they are having a hard time understanding what you are saying. We are also having a hard time seeing how your explanation fits under the rules. I think that's partially because of the 'run on sentence' structure of your posts. I am having a hard time understanding where your emphasis is, which is why I asked for clarification.

 

I can see the build you are talking about, but I disagree that it's the proper way to do it. In other words, just because Steve Long writes it, doesn't make it work for me. Oddhat has a perfectly acceptable way of creating this effect, and it works well under the rules.

 

All I'm saying is if a legal build (official hero system build) exist then mechanically you cant argue but you can state in all fairness that it's not allowed or done that way in you universe for whatever reason legit or not!

 

Now symantically we could argue that if the designers/creators concepts/rules hold no weight in a game because of personal preference, then absolute it would be a constant and hold true to all others opinions which is not necessarially a bad thing just a point of fact that makes the last part of you sentence a moot point!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

But the whole thing rests on a Side Effect; a Limitation that magically coughs up the powers of the target. A Limitation that doesn't limit the power isn't worth any points - and, further, it violates the spirit (and possibly the letter, though I'd have to double check) of the rules.

 

I don't see semantics here. I see a build you concocted which smacks of munchkinism. And the last part of the sentence isn't half as important as the first part: please never accuse me (or any board member) of being incapable of understanding something. I'm not really into "board fights" but an apology would be nice.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

All I'm saying is if a legal build (official hero system build) exist then mechanically you cant argue but you can state in all fairness that it's not allowed or done that way in you universe for whatever reason legit or not!

 

Now symantically we could argue that if the designers/creators concepts/rules hold no weight in a game because of personal preference, then absolute it would be a constant and hold true to all others opinions which is not necessarially a bad thing just a point of fact that makes the last part of you sentence a moot point!

 

Ah, no. Beware of ad hominem and other generally fallacious arguments, please.

 

The idea behind the published power build was, from what little I'm reading here, a Permanent Mind Switch. Your mind comes into my body; I become you. Presumably, my mental powers come with me, while your non-mental powers stay with your body, while your non-psychic mind gets to inherit my non-Powered body. This is best done with a Transform, I agree: I transform 'your body/your mind' into 'your body/my mind', while I 'suffer' a shift of 'my body/my mind' into 'my body/your mind'.

 

What you're trying to propose is radically different. Rogue's targets are typically struck unconscious, and sometimes (though not always) regain consciousness before they regain their powers. This is probably best done as an NND linked to a kickass Mimic Pool VPP; while I can understand the lure of a Multiform inside that 'Mimic VPP', I'm pretty damn certain I'd be 103% leery of letting it be played in my game.

 

I know for certain I wouldn't let you Transform yourself, especially since Transform is stated as not being a Power that can be used to alter your own self. The 'mind switch' Transform that happens to the power-user is more in the nature of a 'side effect', because the Power bought is actually Transforming the target. What happens to the user is a result, a side-effect, not a cause.

 

And please -- what you're suggesting is idiot-simple. Don't let your ego get in the way of your proposals or mathematics.

 

You should also be aware that what you are likely trying to model is a Power at the terrible height of their ability. Parasite can take on -- can and has taken down -- Superman himself. Rogue has been able to wreck almost every super in the Marvel universe that had innate (i.e. non-mechanical/tool) powers. These are major characters, on par with the top-end Powers they're fighting. While I don't know about Parasite (though I'm pretty sure he's encountered this situation), Rogue herself has been knocked out because her power couldn't handle the powers that she was trying to channel.

 

If you want to go to that sort of extreme, however, the Perfectly Rules-Legal build of 'Multiform in the VPP' is perhaps the way for you to go. Considering you can build, for example, Rogue's base strength/invulnerability/flight and psychic wall out of, oh, 250 points, getting something with 'additional powers' for that extra 100 means you're probably going to kick some serious keister.

 

Huh. Okay, horror of horrors, get ready for this one.

 

Me, Plus You: Multiform (600 Character Points in the most expensive form) (Instant Change), Fully Variable 'Other Powers' (+3/4) (219 Active Points); Powers 'Borrowed' Fade At a Rate of 5 Active Points per Minute (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Must Touch Target To Mimic Powers (-1/2), Limited Class Of Powers Available Limited (Only Powers of Touched Target; -1/2)

 

73 character points.

 

Sticking a Multiform in a VPP limits the active cost of the VPP, and hence the top end of the character in it; we want the character to have a truly incredible top end. 600 points in, for example, a 350-point campaign would certainly serve...

[pinecone]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

The Mind Transfer power is a Transform with a Side Effect. Your target gains your mind, you (as a side effect) gain your target's mind. It's a controversial build, but it is official.

 

Using it for Rogue like powers allows you to gain powers, a positive benefit, from a side effect, a limitation. That violates the spirit of the rules; I wouldn't allow it.

 

I'd handle a power stealing character with a Transform (Target with powers into Target without powers) and a VPP, Multiform Only, Only form of self plus powers of Duplicated Character. Relatively easy to put together even on 350 points.

 

Yeah...dats what I said...only not so el-o-quint...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Yeah, but even with that, unless you have a huge VPP, the Multiform's actives within it is still limited to the VPP pool size. Stick 'Variable Effects' as an advantage on Multiform (1 Form), and you have the ability to be far, far more 'powerful' vs. the points you spend.

 

For 73 character points, you'd get about a 60-point-pool VPP, of which the Multiform would be able to be a maximum of 60 active points -- or, loosely, a form worth 300 points. For the same 73 points, the Multiform with the increased-cost Variable F/X punches up to 600 points. Which is, to me, just bloody frightful. On the other hand, I think I might use that at some point in the future...

[OddHat]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Yeah, but even with that, unless you have a huge VPP, the Multiform's actives within it is still limited to the VPP pool size. Stick 'Variable Effects' as an advantage on Multiform (1 Form), and you have the ability to be far, far more 'powerful' vs. the points you spend.

 

For 73 character points, you'd get about a 60-point-pool VPP, of which the Multiform would be able to be a maximum of 60 active points -- or, loosely, a form worth 300 points. For the same 73 points, the Multiform with the increased-cost Variable F/X punches up to 600 points. Which is, to me, just bloody frightful. On the other hand, I think I might use that at some point in the future...

 

Variable Special Effects does not allow you to choose alternate forms for your Multiform; it just allows you to change your SFX. There is no "Variable Forms" advantage. If you want infinite forms, you must use a VPP.

 

Multiform is a Standard Power, and may be placed in any power framework; 5thER, p.212, GM's may ask for special justification for Multiform in a VPP because of the ease with which forms can be shifted, but considering that a Multiform VPP is potentially very unbalancing it deserves that extra attention.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Yeah' date=' but even with that, unless you have a huge VPP, the Multiform's actives within it is still limited to the VPP pool size. Stick 'Variable Effects' as an advantage on Multiform (1 Form), and you have the ability to be far, far more 'powerful' vs. the points you spend.[/quote']

Another way to build (and perhaps save points) with a Rogue-type power is to use Transfer to suppliment the powers in the VPP. If you've got a 60-point power and I try to steal it with my 30-point VPP, I can only get up to the 30 points, but if I also have a Transfer: Your Power to My Power, I can build up mine to the proper level and take away yours.

 

The Transfer can be:

An individual power (with advantages) bought outside the VPP,

Bought within the VPP (so be sure you buy a bigger pool to leave room for it),

or bought within a separate VPP (which might be the best, most flexible option).

[OddHat]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

Another way to build (and perhaps save points) with a Rogue-type power is to use Transfer to suppliment the powers in the VPP. If you've got a 60-point power and I try to steal it with my 30-point VPP, I can only get up to the 30 points, but if I also have a Transfer: Your Power to My Power, I can build up mine to the proper level and take away yours.

 

The Transfer can be:

An individual power (with advantages) bought outside the VPP,

Bought within the VPP (so be sure you buy a bigger pool to leave room for it),

or bought within a separate VPP (which might be the best, most flexible option).

 

Point for point, it's probably more efficient to just buy a bigger Multiform VPP. After all, each point in that Multiform VPP yields 5 (though some of that might be lost if you choose to buy down the disads you'll need in the target form). A 90 point VPP is easy enough to budget for on 350 points, enough to completely duplicate a 450 point character (again, some points will be lost if you want to retain your own skills and other powers) and to at least get the major powers of more powerful targets. Of course, between that and the power you need to render them unconscious or powerless, you'll probably be lucky to get more than Agent level stats and skills outside of your duplication power. It's a powerful ability, and hard to build on the cheap.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Parasite/Rogue Effect

 

I think I've just been insulted. It must be too complicated for me to crasp' date=' eh? Okie doke, well, good luck with that. [/quote']

 

I Apologize if my statement offended you, it truly was not my intension and hope you accept without hard feelings!

 

it was Not meant to insult you just acknowledging there's a barrier between communication either in my discription or in you understanding!