Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Well, it's not specifically talking about "Usable By Others," but by some form of "Usable On Others." It is rather vague, but it seems to me the implication is that it's an attack power - something intended for an opponent. It's fine to give general guidelines in the FAQ about vague powers so that attack builds aren't abusive, but the specific case of "Flight with Passengers" isn't addressed.

 

Even if there is some passage in the rules that specifically forbids my build (which I have yet to see), it certainly isn't as big a stretch of the rules as some of the official builds in many of the books. Can anyone provide an argument that my build isn't fair, or doesn't make sense, etc.?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Well' date=' it's not specifically talking about "Usable By Others," but by some form of "Usable On Others."[/quote']

 

That seems to be a bit like "Potato, Potato". Usable On Others is the "MetaAdvantage", of which there are subdivisions, which include Usable By Others, Usable Simultaneously, and Usable As Attack.

 

It is rather vague' date=' but it seems to me the implication is that it's an attack power - something intended for an opponent.[/quote']

 

Quote: "non-Ranged non-Attack Power". Seems pretty specific that it's not an attack power.

 

It's fine to give general guidelines in the FAQ about vague powers so that attack builds aren't abusive' date=' but the specific case of "Flight with Passengers" isn't addressed.[/quote']

 

Anything that affects someone else besides the person with the power is effectively an Attack Power. Passenger, by the very word, means that something or someone else is transporting the character. This outside force (in the context of this discussion) is outside his direct control, which rules out UBO, but leaves UAA as a possibility. The rules about Self-Only (as opposed to a "Target of Self") Powers rule out using AoE.

 

This would seem to leave just UAA, with possible Limitations to flavor, like Limited Range(4"; -1/4).

 

Even if there is some passage in the rules that specifically forbids my build (which I have yet to see)' date=' it certainly isn't as big a stretch of the rules as some of the official builds in many of the books.[/quote']

 

Well, if you're looking for a passage that says "You cannot use AoE on Flight to get others to fly as well", we'll be looking for a long time. However, the rules for Self Only Powers (like Flight) on their own rule out things like Ranged and AoE. Otherwise, I could buy EDM + Ranged to make others "Come Along".

 

Self Only Powers are Powers that only affect the character himself.

 

This rules out both Ranged and AoE in an attempt to allow such powers to affect additional people. Only means only. Only

 

Can anyone provide an argument that my build isn't fair' date=' or doesn't make sense, etc.?[/quote']

 

First, please provide a full build as you would see it. Then we can provide more concrete arguments. But I am concerned. Who or what is to decide what is fair, or what makes sense?

 

Also, I direct readers to Gadgets and Gear, p 104-105. The "Flight Disk" is Flight + UAA, and the "Flight Platform" is Flight + Usable Simultaneously. No AoE on either.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Well, it's not specifically talking about "Usable By Others," but by some form of "Usable On Others." It is rather vague, but it seems to me the implication is that it's an attack power - something intended for an opponent. It's fine to give general guidelines in the FAQ about vague powers so that attack builds aren't abusive, but the specific case of "Flight with Passengers" isn't addressed.

 

Even if there is some passage in the rules that specifically forbids my build (which I have yet to see), it certainly isn't as big a stretch of the rules as some of the official builds in many of the books. Can anyone provide an argument that my build isn't fair, or doesn't make sense, etc.?

Checkout the sidebar next to the Usable By Others Advantage in 5ER. No, there isn't the phrase "Phil Fleischmann is wrong", but there is a discussion about the topic of this thread, using Flight as a specific example and how to accomplish a group flight ability such as flying with passengers.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Straight from the source!

 

Flight and AOE question

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1268063#post1268063

 

I asked:

Can the Area Of Affect Advantage be purchased for Flight without also purchasing some form of the Usable On Other Advantage as well?

 

Steve Long answered:

No. But for that matter, even if a Movement Power is made Usable On Others, applying Area Of Effect is meaningless; the character still has to buy enough Usable Simultaneously to affect every individual person he wants to give the power to, per the usual UOO rules. See the sidebar on 5ER 274, and the optional rules on FH 125, for more information.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Checkout the sidebar next to the Usable By Others Advantage in 5ER. No' date=' there isn't the phrase "Phil Fleischmann is wrong", but there is a discussion about the topic of this thread, using Flight as a specific example and how to accomplish a group flight ability such as flying with passengers.[/quote']

 

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dust Raven again.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Straight from the source!

 

Flight and AOE question

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1268063#post1268063

 

While the Great And Powerful Steve is wise and knows the rules better than anyone, I disagree with some of this, at least if Flight is bought UAA specifically. Like any Attack Power (which any UAA Powers should be considered ad), it should affect everyone/thing in the area equally.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

While the Great And Powerful Steve is wise and knows the rules better than anyone' date=' I disagree with some of this, at least if Flight is bought UAA specifically. Like any Attack Power (which any UAA Powers should be considered ad), it should affect everyone/thing in the area equally.[/quote']

 

What made it click for me was first understanding that any power with UBO is automatically usable at a range away from the granter once granted. Adding the Range and/or AOE Advantages only removes the normal requirement to touch the target. They have nothing to do with the number of targets that can be affected.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

What made it click for me was first understanding that any power with UBO is automatically usable at a range away from the granter once granted. Adding the Range and/or AOE Advantages only removes the normal requirement to touch the target. They have nothing to do with the number of targets that can be affected.

That's always been weird to me. I can understand if you are giving powers to other people with Usable By Others/Simultaneously. But with UAA, that creates an Attack Power. If you put AoE on an Attack Power, everyone in the area is targeted.

 

Example. EB 6d6 AoE (3" radius). You attack, and everyone within 3" of the hex you hit takes 6d6 damage. Everyone. Not one person that you can double for an +1/4 Advantage.

 

But if you buy Teleport, Flight, FF, or anything like that, and apply UAA, Range and AoE, you still only affect a single target. Why?

[archermoo]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

That's always been weird to me. I can understand if you are giving powers to other people with Usable By Others/Simultaneously. But with UAA, that creates an Attack Power. If you put AoE on an Attack Power, everyone in the area is targeted.

 

Example. EB 6d6 AoE (3" radius). You attack, and everyone within 3" of the hex you hit takes 6d6 damage. Everyone. Not one person that you can double for an +1/4 Advantage.

 

But if you buy Teleport, Flight, FF, or anything like that, and apply UAA, Range and AoE, you still only affect a single target. Why?

 

Because those powers already have a mechanic for adding extra capacity.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

That seems to be a bit like "Potato' date=' Potato". [i']Usable On Others[/i] is the "MetaAdvantage", of which there are subdivisions, which include Usable By Others, Usable Simultaneously, and Usable As Attack.

The FAQ you posted says, "As a general rule." Specific rules are often exceptions to general rules. UAA and UBO are not the same, that's why they have different rules.

 

Quote: "non-Ranged non-Attack Power". Seems pretty specific that it's not an attack power.

I was referring to the power construct, after UAA is applied. Flight, after all, isn't an attack power either. Not with a capital A - an Attack Power that requires an Attack Action. And not with a lower case a - an attack (or offensive) power that is intended to hinder an enemy regardless of whether it requires an Attack Action. And to clarify yet again, the construct we are talking about is also not an Attack Power, nor an attack power.

 

Anything that affects someone else besides the person with the power is effectively an Attack Power.

Not necessarily.

 

This outside force (in the context of this discussion) is outside his direct control, which rules out UBO, but leaves UAA as a possibility.

And as I've already said before, UAA doesn't do what we want it to in this case. Passengers, not prisoners.

 

The rules about Self-Only (as opposed to a "Target of Self") Powers rule out using AoE.

Considering all the published examples that violate "rule out" rules, I don't see any reason to conclude that this one is any more "ruled out." Especially since the FAQ answer specifically allows an exception to be made.

 

This would seem to leave just UAA, with possible Limitations to flavor, like Limited Range(4"; -1/4).

Again, this creates a construct that doesn't do what we want. That should be the first criterion when evaluating a build: does it achieve the desired result? In this case, we're looking for a construct that *allows* (not *forces*) other characters to fly along. I don't mean to keep repeating myself, but I see no other choice if you keep offering builds that don't do what I'm asking for.

 

Well, if you're looking for a passage that says "You cannot use AoE on Flight to get others to fly as well", we'll be looking for a long time. However, the rules for Self Only Powers (like Flight) on their own rule out things like Ranged and AoE. Otherwise, I could buy EDM + Ranged to make others "Come Along".

No. That would be an Attack power which would require UAA. That's not what we're talking about, right? And we're not talking about ranged here either. Sending someone else flying against his will is a very different power than letting others fly along with you if they want.

 

This rules out both Ranged and AoE in an attempt to allow such powers to affect additional people. Only means only. Only

Why do you assume this rule is sacred and inviolate when so many others aren't in official works? And when the FAQ that you quoted allows for exceptions?

 

First, please provide a full build as you would see it. Then we can provide more concrete arguments.

I thought my build was simple enough that everyone would understand, but maybe not. Here is the build:

 

Flight, Area of Effect

 

That's it. The shape of the area can be either Radius or "Trail" or maybe even a "Trailing Cone", or maybe some other shape. The shape doesn't really matter for the purpose of this discussion. It would be chosen based on SFX. A flying carpet would be Radius or maybe a Radius with the sides cut off to be a square or rectangle, or it could just be One Hex. A wind-based power might carry others along in the flyer's wake, and use Trail or some type of Trailing Cone. etc.

 

The character with this power can fly, and others within the Area *may* also fly provided that they stay within the Area. Note that the Area moves with the character. Other characters can leave the area at any time, at which point they stop flying (and may start falling), or they may choose not to start flying from the point where the flyer takes off, in which case, they remain on the ground. The flyer has no control over who comes with and who stays behind. Of course he may use other powers/actions to have some control over this, like Grabbing someone to make him come along (which is available even without the AoE), or pushing/knocking someone out of the Area to prevent him from coming along.

 

But I am concerned. Who or what is to decide what is fair, or what makes sense?

Anyone with the ability to do so and the courage to use it.

 

Also, I direct readers to Gadgets and Gear, p 104-105. The "Flight Disk" is Flight + UAA, and the "Flight Platform" is Flight + Usable Simultaneously. No AoE on either.

I don't have that book, but from what you've described, neither one does the same thing as my build above. The "Flight Disk" *forces* others to come along. And the "Flight Platform" lets the user select who may comes along and who may not. My "Flying Carpet" does neither of those.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Checkout the sidebar next to the Usable By Others Advantage in 5ER. No' date=' there isn't the phrase "Phil Fleischmann is wrong", but there is a discussion about the topic of this thread, using Flight as a specific example and how to accomplish a group flight ability such as flying with passengers.[/quote']

Yes. There is an example of one way to accomplish a group flight ability there. Here, I am offering another. Is it your contention that there is only one right way to do things in HERO?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

What made it click for me was first understanding that any power with UBO is automatically usable at a range away from the granter once granted. Adding the Range and/or AOE Advantages only removes the normal requirement to touch the target. They have nothing to do with the number of targets that can be affected.

Exactly! Which is why UBO is not the correct advantage for a "Fly along with me" power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Yes. There is an example of one way to accomplish a group flight ability there. Here' date=' I am offering another. Is it your contention that there is only one right way to do things in HERO?[/quote']

 

Nope.

 

Your suggested way is just against the rules.

 

According to the GAME DESIGNER no less.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

That's always been weird to me. I can understand if you are giving powers to other people with Usable By Others/Simultaneously. But with UAA, that creates an Attack Power. If you put AoE on an Attack Power, everyone in the area is targeted.

 

Example. EB 6d6 AoE (3" radius). You attack, and everyone within 3" of the hex you hit takes 6d6 damage. Everyone. Not one person that you can double for an +1/4 Advantage.

 

But if you buy Teleport, Flight, FF, or anything like that, and apply UAA, Range and AoE, you still only affect a single target. Why?

 

Well, EB + BOECV isn't *fully* a mental power (I.e., follows all the rules of mental powers), so in the same way Flight + UAA isn't *fully* an attack power. The advantage lets a normally non-attack power be used in an offensive way, but doesn't fully change it's category in terms of how other advantages affect it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Because those powers already have a mechanic for adding extra capacity.

Please direct me to the mechanic for Flight and FF to add extra capacity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Please direct me to the mechanic for Flight and FF to add extra capacity.

 

With the mechanic to allow people other than the one who paid points for the power to use the flight and FF. is under the UBO advantage.

 

While I'm not opposed to letting UAA, or even UBO, abilities use area of effect to affect multiple targets, Steve's recent comment on the Rules Board makes it clear that this would be a variant of the official rules.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Yes. There is an example of one way to accomplish a group flight ability there. Here' date=' I am offering another. Is it your contention that there is only one right way to do things in HERO?[/quote']

It is my contention that the fact there is usually more than one right way to do things in Hero does not preclude the fact there will always remain wrong ways as well.

 

I'd also like to point out I've already made several suggestions as to how to model a "flight with passengers" ability in this thread. None of them use invalid mechanics.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

With the mechanic to allow people other than the one who paid points for the power to use the flight and FF. is under the UBO advantage.

 

While I'm not opposed to letting UAA, or even UBO, abilities use area of effect to affect multiple targets, Steve's recent comment on the Rules Board makes it clear that this would be a variant of the official rules.

Agreed. I'm not debating the legality of it, just the reason. The rule is there and legal and nothing short of a 6th edition can change that. I'm just sayinig the rule sucks and shouldn't exist in the first place.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Your suggested way is just against the rules.

 

According to the GAME DESIGNER no less.

The GAME DESIGNER (peace be unto him) violates his own rules on a regular basis. Apparently, even he believes that the rules do not trump common sense and fairness. He says so in the rulebook, in so many words. That's why there are those stop signs and warning signs/magnifying glasses, among other things. He's saying, essentially, "There are places where exactly following the rules won't make sense or be fair, so in such cases the principles of fairness and common sense take priority."

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

It is my contention that the fact there is usually more than one right way to do things in Hero does not preclude the fact there will always remain wrong ways as well.

We're in perfect agreement on this.

 

I'd also like to point out I've already made several suggestions as to how to model a "flight with passengers" ability in this thread. None of them use invalid mechanics.

True. But none of them do quite the same thing as mine does. One of the most important principles of the game is the idea that you should be able to model *anything*. None of the mechanics you suggested models the flying carpet. Here are the differences, in a nutshell:

 

Advantage   Invited Passengers   Uninvited Passengers
UBO            If willing        None
UAA            Willing or not       None
AoE            If willing        Possible

 

If an uninvited guest steps onto my flying carpet, I have to make him leave or take him with me.

[archermoo]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

The GAME DESIGNER (peace be unto him) violates his own rules on a regular basis. Apparently' date=' even he believes that the rules to not trump common sense and fairness. He says so in the rulebook, in so many words. That's why there are those stop signs and warning signs/magnifying glasses, among other things. He's saying, essentially, "There are places where exactly following the rules won't make sense or be fair, so in such cases the principles of fairness and common sense take priority."[/quote']

 

Certainly. However when someone is looking for a way to model something in a game, the implied caveat is that they are looking for an answer that doesn't violate the rules of that game.

 

Since I'm not exactly sure at this point specifically what you are looking to model, could you restate it? Then I'll happily see if I can suggest an alternative that is a little more in keeping with the rules as written.

[archermoo]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

We're in perfect agreement on this.

 

 

True. But none of them do quite the same thing as mine does. One of the most important principles of the game is the idea that you should be able to model *anything*. None of the mechanics you suggested models the flying carpet. Here are the differences, in a nutshell:

 

Advantage   Invited Passengers   Uninvited Passengers
UBO            If willing        None
UAA            Willing or not       None
AoE            If willing        Possible

 

If an uninvited guest steps onto my flying carpet, I have to make him leave or take him with me.

 

Your code section isn't entirely true. The difference between UBO and UAA isn't a matter of if they are willing or not. It is a matter of who is in control of the flight. You could easily add a limitation to Flight UAA of something like "only if willing".

 

And as AoE isn't applicable to flight, if you wish to make it so you can set the "willingness level" wherever you want.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

We're in perfect agreement on this.

 

 

True. But none of them do quite the same thing as mine does. One of the most important principles of the game is the idea that you should be able to model *anything*. None of the mechanics you suggested models the flying carpet. Here are the differences, in a nutshell:

 

Advantage   Invited Passengers   Uninvited Passengers
UBO            If willing        None
UAA            Willing or not       None
AoE            If willing        Possible

If an uninvited guest steps onto my flying carpet, I have to make him leave or take him with me.

 

You just described a vehicle. Use those rules.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Certainly. However when someone is looking for a way to model something in a game' date=' the implied caveat is that they are looking for an answer that doesn't violate the rules of that game.[/quote']

And I still maintain that my suggestion doesn't. I claim and maintain that the principles of common sense and fairness taking priority over the rules, is in fact *part* of the rules.

 

Since I'm not exactly sure at this point specifically what you are looking to model, could you restate it?

No. I'm tired of repeating myself. If you're interested, you're welcome to read my posts and respond.

 

Your code section isn't entirely true. The difference between UBO and UAA ...

Hence my inclusion of the phrase, "in a nutshell."

 

And as AoE isn't applicable to flight, if you wish to make it so you can set the "willingness level" wherever you want.

But only if you *pay* for the appropriate "willingness level." As-is, the "willingness level" of *any* AoE power is the same, and quite simple: if you don't want to be affected by the power, you can get out of the area; and if you do want to be affected, you can get into the area. The user of the power doesn't get any further control than this, unless they pay for it.

 

YGWYPFAYPFWYG.

[archermoo]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

No. I'm tired of repeating myself. If you're interested, you're welcome to read my posts and respond.

 

Okay. I have no interest in being helpful to someone who cannot respond to a simple and easily answered request. Have a nice day.