Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

[Ebon]

Right now, I have an air/weather controller with this:

 

25 Elemental Control, 50-point powers

17 1) Flight 10", x4 Noncombat, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (50 Active Points); Localized (Passengers must stay within 4' of user; -1/2) 5

26 2) Flight 18", Improved Noncombat Movement (x16) (51 Active Points)

20 3) Strong wind manipulation: Telekinesis (33 STR) (50 Active Points); Affects Whole Object (-1/4)

 

Is there a better (read: cheaper) way to model having flight that can pick up and take up to eight people, willing or not? I'd prefer to have one power that did this instead of two, if at all possible.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I've done this using AE: Radius, Selective. There's a certain radius around you where everyone (that you want) flies along with you. If you don't mind "stowaways" you can leave off the Selective. I've used this method for flying carpets and similar things, but it can work without anything underneath. Note that the AE: Radius means the others have to stay near you or they fall. They don't get to fly independantly. The way you built it is also valid.

 

You might want to put the two versions of Flight into a Multipower instead. It might save you some points since they won't be used together.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I've done this using AE: Radius, Selective. There's a certain radius around you where everyone (that you want) flies along with you. If you don't mind "stowaways" you can leave off the Selective. I've used this method for flying carpets and similar things, but it can work without anything underneath. Note that the AE: Radius means the others have to stay near you or they fall. They don't get to fly independently. The way you built it is also valid.

 

You might want to put the two versions of Flight into a Multipower instead. It might save you some points since they won't be used together.

 

I don't think that it is legal to put AoE on Flight. It resembles a UAA power, only without needing to define a "reasonably common set of defenses that cancels out the attack".

 

Also, without some method of movement that doesn't depend upon contact with the ground, the targets have no choice but to go along with the character, and they will remain in their respective locations relative to the character with the AoE Flight. They have no way of not staying near you.

 

About the passengers "problem". Try this: Buy your Flight normally, to whatever level you want in whatever Framework (EC, MP, or VPP), then add this slot to the EC:

 

15 Passenger Service: 16 STR Telekinesis - Zero END(+.5), Limited Range(4"; -.25), Affects Whole Object(-.25)

AND +8 OCV Skill Levels w/Grab(52 Active Points).

 

To pick up multiple people in one action, just use Rapid Fire. Note that using Rapid Fire does take a Full Phase and makes the character 1/2 DCV. There is a -2 OCV penalty for each attack after the first (but the +8 offsets that nicely. ). But the character can use TK again, and again, and again until he has everybody he wants (and can hold onto).

 

After all, the character is not granting the power of flight to someone else, and isn't causing them to fly as he does (strictly speaking, and IMO). He is literally picking them up and carrying them along. Once you have everybody "in your arms", you can carry them with you at your full Flight velocity (and at no greater END cost!)

 

And it only costs 15 pts in your EC! The only possible objection would be putting Skill Levels into a Framework slot as part of a Compound Power. If so, you can use this AoE version:

 

14 Passenger Service: 12 STR Telekinesis - Zero END(+.5), AoE: Radius, Selective(4" Radius;+1.25), No Range(-.5), Affects Whole Object(-.25)(50 Active Points - rounded *up* from 49.5).

 

The down side is that each target in the area gets their normal DCV against this (because of Selective), there is no +8 to Grabs with it, and it's a weaker TK.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I don't see a problem with the UBO or the 'must stay near' as a limitation: One word: knockback!

 

Mind you I'd be inclined to simply use your existing TK rather than an advantaged flight power or a seperate slot, then you could lose one slot, fly faster with passengers and it kinda makes sense that you have less TK available when carrying passengers.

 

I do recall that you can put AoE on certain powers to make it rather like a UAA, something from the FAQ or a previous thread I'll have to look at when I get the time (sometime in 2009, I'd imagine )

[Sean Waters]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

If all passengers held onto each other then I'd let you treat them as a single object for lifting: they would probably huddle anyway from the buffetting of the winds! Probably not a very comfortable way to travel long distances.

 

The downside is that they are technically grabbed, so their DCV is halved. I might, however, allow the whole ensemble to use the wind manipulator's DCV, with a penalty for 'larger than normal': 1 passenger, no problem, 3 passengers (2 hexes) -2, 16 passengers (pretty close to max with 33 STR TK) -DCV, and I'd apply that to both wind manipulator and passengers.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I don't think that it is legal to put AoE on Flight. It resembles a UAA power' date=' only without needing to define a "reasonably common set of defenses that cancels out the attack".[/quote']

Why not? You can put AoE on most other powers. It depends what you're trying to do. If you want to *force* people to come with you, then I'd agree, you need UAA. If you want to *let* others come with you, AoE seems the simplest way to go. The defense is very easy: get out of the area radius. If you want people to be able to fly independantly, then you need UBO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

If a character already has the Flight power and wants to carry multiple passengers why not just create a Force Wall construct centered on himself. All the passengers have to do is hang on to the construct like any other vehicle. This solves the dilema of deciding if AOE or UAA needs to be purchased on Flight since it doesn't even involve the flight power.

 

from 5er, page 179

 

"Force Walls are usually immobile: once set up

they stay in place. A character can make himself the

center of his Force Wall; the Force Wall then moves

with him. However, moving Force Walls have no

STR — characters can’t use them to push people

aside or perform Move Throughs."

 

This implies that it can't be used for combat benefit but previous threads have addressed the issue of using a Force Wall as a 'bridge' by just using its defense to determine how much weight it can carry before breaking.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I typically buy the 'scoop several people up in a whirlwind and take them with me' power as Flight, Useable Against Others (or Useable As Attack nowadays) AE Radius, with the defense being grabbing on to something or being too heavy to lift based on other TK-based air powers the character has.

 

This takes care of the issue of HERO's (well, any RPG's) 'move one at a time in initiative order while, technically, everybody moves at once' problem ... out of combat you can work with it, but in combat it gets ugly deciding who's staying within 4" of you, when each individual person controls their power, and they may be SPD points below you.

 

There's also the fact that the other people shouldn't be able to control where they go ... the air-manipulator does, plus he's the one who should be spending the END for the power. I think you're normally not allowed to use an UAA power on yourself, but I allow it in this instance, to make everything go smooth.

[gojira]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Best/most efficient way of flying with passengers?

 

Buy it as a vehicle. Sidekick says a Boeing 747 is only 8 points.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Best/most efficient way of flying with passengers?

 

Buy it as a vehicle. Sidekick says a Boeing 747 is only 8 points.

 

But can you afford the fuel it burns?

 

And TUV shows a Boeing 747-400 as 26 pts. I'd be real interested to see how they got it down to only 8 pts in Sidekick.

 

But besides that, using a vehicle or Force Wall is not Reasoned From Effect. For one thing, in a Ororo Munroe/Storm style "carry people with her" type of flight, there is nothing around the characters that can be attacked to disrupt this. This alone rules out Force Walls and Vehicles IMO.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I typically buy the 'scoop several people up in a whirlwind and take them with me' power as Flight' date=' Usable Against Others (or Usable As Attack nowadays) AE Radius, with the defense being grabbing on to something or being too heavy to lift based on other TK-based air powers the character has.[/quote']

 

I don't understand the need for AoE: Radius with such a power. But something like this (based on the original 25 pt EC/50 pt powers)?

 

21 Passenger Service: 7" Flight - Zero END(+.5), Usable As Attack(Defense is mass over 800kg, Clinging, Grabbing with 25+ STR onto a well-rooted, immobile object; +1), x8 Targets(+.75), Ranged(+.5), Limited Range(4"; -.25)(52 Active Points).

 

The problem is that because of all the advantages, it leaves little room for inches of Flight. Using this, the character would have to limit himself to 7", and cannot use Non-Combat Multiples.

 

This takes care of the issue of HERO's (well' date=' any RPG's) 'move one at a time in initiative order while, technically, everybody moves at once' problem ... out of combat you can work with it, but in combat it gets ugly deciding who's staying within 4" of you, when each individual person controls their power, and they may be SPD points below you.[/quote']

 

I don't understand what the segmented nature of RPG combat has to do with this. The only way I see it being a problem is if Usable By Others is used (incorrectly, based upon the F/X given).

 

There's also the fact that the other people shouldn't be able to control where they go ... the air-manipulator does' date=' plus he's the one who should be spending the END for the power. I think you're normally not allowed to use an UAA power on yourself, but I allow it in this instance, to make everything go smooth.[/quote']

 

These are why it shouldn't be a UBO Flight. And 5ER, p 275, is emphatic that it is only usable as an attack, and not for normal purposes. It does go on to concede that the GM might permit a character to "attack" himself with it in appropriate circumstances (IMO like using it on other targets as well as himself).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

But can you afford the fuel it burns?

 

And TUV shows a Boeing 747-400 as 26 pts. I'd be real interested to see how they got it down to only 8 pts in Sidekick.

 

But besides that, using a vehicle or Force Wall is not Reasoned From Effect. For one thing, in a Ororo Munroe/Storm style "carry people with her" type of flight, there is nothing around the characters that can be attacked to disrupt this. This alone rules out Force Walls and Vehicles IMO.

 

You just hit upon the keyword: carry

 

carry implies STR. STR at range = Telekinesis

 

The disruption mechanic is an opposing higher STR grab (TK or otherwise).

 

How would you resolve a grab via TK vs. a character being 'flown' by another character with Flight UAA? There is no easy answer. It becomes a GM handwave issue like unanticipated NND circumstances.

[gojira]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

And TUV shows a Boeing 747-400 as 26 pts. I'd be real interested to see how they got it down to only 8 pts in Sidekick.

 

I was trying to be funny--buy you're "fly others" as a vehicle. :

 

8 points in Sidekick looks like a typo. SK lists a Boeing 747 as 14 1/2 8 points, with the 1/2 being a single character. I sure what they meant was 141/28 points, which makes much more sense. Somebody's "helpful" automagic character substitution must have bit them when they weren't looking.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Oh, so that's what humor looks like. Sorry, I've seen so many serious attempts to munchkin things, even attempts just like what you've described, that I drop into "Book Legal" mode (for lack of a better name) easily.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I don't understand the need for AoE: Radius with such a power. But something like this (based on the original 25 pt EC/50 pt powers)?

 

21 Passenger Service: 7" Flight - Zero END(+.5), Usable As Attack(Defense is mass over 800kg, Clinging, Grabbing with 25+ STR onto a well-rooted, immobile object; +1), x8 Targets(+.75), Ranged(+.5), Limited Range(4"; -.25)(52 Active Points).

 

I believe, to affect multiple targets with a UAA power, you have to use Area of Effect or Autofire, just as if you wanted to attack multiple people with an Energy Blast. At the very least, that's how I'd rule it, if that's not the case. The 'double recipients for a +1/4' thing is only for Useable By.

[lemming]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

But can you afford the fuel it burns?

 

And TUV shows a Boeing 747-400 as 26 pts. I'd be real interested to see how they got it down to only 8 pts in Sidekick.

Sidekick doesn't serve an in flight meal.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I believe' date=' to affect multiple targets with a UAA power, you have to use Area of Effect or Autofire, just as if you wanted to attack multiple people with an Energy Blast. At the very least, that's how I'd rule it, if that's not the case. The 'double recipients for a +1/4' thing is only for Usable By.[/quote']

 

The sidebars on 5ER p 274 -275 seem to indicate that UAA can be bought to affect multiple targets. Also, on 5ER p 276 it says that with the GM's permission a character can buy a UAA power to affect multiple targets using the standard rules for UOO powers. It also cautions the GM about multi-target, ranged UAA powers being potentially unbalancing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

The sidebars on 5ER p 274 -275 seem to indicate that UAA can be bought to affect multiple targets. Also' date=' on 5ER p 276 it says that with the GM's permission a character can buy a UAA power to affect multiple targets using the standard rules for UOO powers. It also cautions the GM about multi-target, ranged UAA powers being potentially unbalancing. [/quote']

 

 

Go figure.

[SatinKitty]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

On a side note, it is probably a good idea to hand non-flying characters a paper bag before you take off. OddHat makes them roll a CON check all the time.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

On a side note' date=' it is probably a good idea to hand non-flying characters a paper bag before you take off. OddHat makes them roll a CON check all the time. [/quote']

 

 

Oops. Musta failed my roll. Maybe I'll invest in Envoronmental Movement (No penalties for Turbulence).

 

That, or LS: Does Not Eat. After all, nothing can come up if it hasn't gone down the hatch first!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

You just hit upon the keyword: carry

 

carry implies STR. STR at range = Telekinesis

 

The disruption mechanic is an opposing higher STR grab (TK or otherwise).

 

How would you resolve a grab via TK vs. a character being 'flown' by another character with Flight UAA? There is no easy answer. It becomes a GM handwave issue like unanticipated NND circumstances.

Hyper-Man has a point here. If I were a Vehicle, I would not under any circumstances need to buy my Movement as UBO/UAA to carry passengers. I'd just need a space to put the passenger and the STR to carry him. That's it. Since all a character needs to carry stuff is STR, that's all you need to "take on passengers". Well, that and a way to hold them. I tend to use TK. I make the TK Area Effect if I need to pick up more than one target at the same time a lot. According to the core rules, once you pick something up with TK, you can move at any speed and move it with you to match, and according to an answer from Steve Long that I can't seem to find, there's a difference between a Grab and a Carry Someone Around (one requires an attack roll and reduces everyone's DCV, the other just happens automatically and there's no reduction in DCV).

 

TK works for most SFX of one guy causing a group of people to fly all at once. They are all pretty much scoop and go effects, whether it's wind, a giant greed force bubble, or a telekinetic hand.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

You just hit upon the keyword: carry

 

carry implies STR. STR at range = Telekinesis

 

The disruption mechanic is an opposing higher STR grab (TK or otherwise).

 

How would you resolve a grab via TK vs. a character being 'flown' by another character with Flight UAA? There is no easy answer. It becomes a GM handwave issue like unanticipated NND circumstances.

 

I asked Steve L. several questions related to this thread. It & his answers can be read here.

 

Generally, one of the things one suffers when grabbed by another is that one is prevented from moving until one breaks free of the grab. If the GM feels that this gives too much weight to weak grabs vs weak-but-fast characters, he can (as S.L. pointed out) apply the "Flight or Running to augment a Movement Power (5ER 364)" rules. In which case, they are using their movement to augment their STR in an attempt to break the Grab.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I asked Steve L. several questions related to this thread. It & his answers can be read here.

 

Generally, one of the things one suffers when grabbed by another is that one is prevented from moving until one breaks free of the grab. If the GM feels that this gives too much weight to weak grabs vs weak-but-fast characters, he can (as S.L. pointed out) apply the "Flight or Running to augment a Movement Power (5ER 364)" rules. In which case, they are using their movement to augment their STR in an attempt to break the Grab.

 

In the case of Flight with UAA how do you determine the 'base' STR to resist a grab?

 

Example:

Say Storm is using Flight UAA to fly Wolverine. They encounter Magneto. Magneto attempts to grab Wolverine with Telekinesis STR 60.

 

What STR is used to resist the grab? Wolverine's STR (~30-35)? How does Storm's Flight UAA figure into it? What if Magneto's TK STR was only 40.

 

take these 2 builds with identical cost:

 

1) Flight 10", Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Usable As Attack (x8 maximum weight per inanimate target; +1 3/4) (75 Active Points) 7 END

 

2) Telekinesis (25 STR), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points) 7 END

 

A character using 1) would have to have a seperate Flight power for themselves just as they would for 2). However, if their seperate Flight power were higher than 10" they could not 'carry' anyone or anything faster than 10" using 1) even though they could move faster. No such limit exists with 2).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Hyper-Man has a point here. If I were a Vehicle, I would not under any circumstances need to buy my Movement as UBO/UAA to carry passengers. I'd just need a space to put the passenger and the STR to carry him. That's it. Since all a character needs to carry stuff is STR, that's all you need to "take on passengers". Well, that and a way to hold them. I tend to use TK. I make the TK Area Effect if I need to pick up more than one target at the same time a lot. According to the core rules, once you pick something up with TK, you can move at any speed and move it with you to match, and according to an answer from Steve Long that I can't seem to find, there's a difference between a Grab and a Carry Someone Around (one requires an attack roll and reduces everyone's DCV, the other just happens automatically and there's no reduction in DCV).

 

TK works for most SFX of one guy causing a group of people to fly all at once. They are all pretty much scoop and go effects, whether it's wind, a giant greed force bubble, or a telekinetic hand.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, DR, about preferring TK over Flight UAA. I just wanted to point out something: A vehicle has Size -- effectively making it's STR AoE (for any vehicle that is large enough for the occupant to be in it instead of on it).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

In the case of Flight with UAA how do you determine the 'base' STR to resist a grab?

 

Example:

Say Storm is using Flight UAA to fly Wolverine. They encounter Magneto. Magneto attempts to grab Wolverine with Telekinesis STR 60.

 

What STR is used to resist the grab? Wolverine's STR (~30-35)? How does Storm's Flight UAA figure into it? What if Magneto's TK STR was only 40.

 

take these 2 builds with identical cost:

 

1) Flight 10", Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Usable As Attack (x8 maximum weight per inanimate target; +1 3/4) (75 Active Points) 7 END

 

2) Telekinesis (25 STR), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points) 7 END

 

Hyper-Man, I'm not sure which you are promoting (if either), so I'll try to give a broad-based answer.

 

First off, I think that Flight UAA is generally not the way to do a mass-transit service, and that TK is more appropriate. Also, I would be inclined to keep things simple and just keep it STR vs STR to get out of a grab. After all, using Movement to augment STR is stated as being an optional rule in 5ER.

 

But if I *had* to GM the above, and had to take into account the UAA movement power, it follow these guidelines:

 

First, the "base" STR used to resist the grab is always that of the victim of the grab.

 

1. I would allow Wolverine and Storm to make a Teamwork Roll for Storm to use her Flight UAA in conjunction with Wolverine's STR to try to break free of Magneto's Grab.

 

2. I think there are rules (or a FAQ) somewhere about two characters "fighting over" a third who has been grabbed. If so, I would defer to them. If not (and I'm losing my mind), then:

 

A. The simple form would be the higher of Wolverine's own STR and Storm's TK STR would be used to resist Magneto's TK Grab,

 

B. The complex form would be to allow the two to coordiante with a Teamwork roll to combine their STR. I am a little dubious of this method, and would research it further before actually using it.

 

A character using 1) would have to have a seperate Flight power for themselves just as they would for 2). However' date=' if their seperate Flight power were higher than 10" they could not 'carry' anyone or anything faster than 10" using 1) even though they could move faster. No such limit exists with 2).[/quote']

 

I believe I have pointed this out myself.