Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

So... meat hooks are out? I mean, with enough STR and enough longish meat hooks, you can carry a few folks.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I'm not disagreeing with you' date=' DR, about preferring TK over Flight UAA. I just wanted to point out something: A vehicle has Size -- effectively making it's STR AoE (for any vehicle that is large enough for the occupant to be in it instead of on it).[/quote']

 

And a Character can by Growth, giving "passengers" more to hold on to. You could also buy the TK AoE, as suggested, to pick up/carry several people at once instead of having them "board" one at a time.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I just wanted to point out something: A vehicle has Size -- effectively making it's STR AoE (for any vehicle that is large enough for the occupant to be in it instead of on it).

Which is similar to why I prefer putting the AoE on the Flight. Note: That's for *willing* passengers only, even enemies, as long as their within the defined area. Just like with a vehicle, if you don't want to go where it's going, you can always jump out (sure there may be hazards involved, but you can take it. You're a Superhero!)

 

Somewhere, in a book I don't own, there's an AoE option called "Trail" or something like that. It's an AoE Line that is the "wake" of a character's movement. A "wind-riding" flyer could easily have such a power that can bring others along in her wake. Someone who doesn't want to come along can simply "fly" out of the area and no longer be affected.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I've heard of that -- somewhere. IIRC, Trail isn't meant to be a usefull conveyance, but either an actual attack, or a negative side effect.

 

By what means would they "fly" out of the AoE?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

By what means would they "fly" out of the AoE?

What do you mean? You just fly. The same way you would walk out of an AoE, or leap out of an AoE, or swing out of an AoE, or teleport out of an AoE.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Let's see. *Someone else's* Flight power is lifting them, I'm pretty sure that they can't Run, Swim, or Leap out of the AoE. Which means that against targets without a special form of movement, once it has you, it has you.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Let's see. *Someone else's* Flight power is lifting them' date=' I'm pretty sure that they can't Run, Swim, or Leap out of the AoE. Which means that against targets without a special form of movement, once it has you, it has you.[/quote']

Huh? You're just in the AoE of a power. There's nothing preventing you from leaving the AoE (unless it's an Entangle or a Suppress Movement Powers, or something like that).

 

And if it's Flight *AoE* and you're in the area, then it's *your* power too! If you're in the area of Invivibility AoE, then you become invisible, and the same holds true for any other power bought AoE. And if you leave the area, the power stops affecting you. And if the power is a Movement power, as it is in this case, you have that additional option of methods to leave if you wish.

 

Just because you're in the area of a Flight AoE, doesn't mean you lose access to your Running, Leaping, etc.

 

And in case it wasn't clear, I'll say it again: I'm only talking about "Flight with Passengers" not "Flight with Prisoners." In case that's your issue with the build.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Huh? You're just in the AoE of a power. There's nothing preventing you from leaving the AoE (unless it's an Entangle or a Suppress Movement Powers, or something like that).

 

[cut-paste]Just because you're in the area of a Flight AoE, doesn't mean you lose access to your Running, Leaping, etc.[/cut-paste]

 

If you've lifted off the ground (regardless of who's Flight is doing it), what solid surface do you have to get traction to Run or Leap, or Liquid surface/substance to Swim?

 

And if it's Flight *AoE* and you're in the area' date=' then it's *your* power too! If you're in the area of Invisibility AoE, then you become invisible, and the same holds true for any other power bought AoE. And if you leave the area, the power stops affecting you. And if the power is a Movement power, as it is in this case, you have that additional option of methods to leave if you wish.[/quote']

 

Flight AoE is not the same as Flight UBO, unless it's bought with that Advantage as well (IMO). Invisibility AoE doesn't have any ramifications for preventing the persons in the AoE from using their own movement powers to leave the AoE. If there is some FAQ or page entry that I have missed that says otherwise about Flight (or other movement powers), please let me know.

 

And in case it wasn't clear' date=' I'll say it again: I'm only talking about "Flight with Passengers" not "Flight with Prisoners." In case that's your issue with the build.[/quote']

 

What if Flight Guy first has his friend, Mr. Mental, to Mind Control someone to "go along willingly". Now he is a passenger?

 

I am fairly sure there are other powers that don't work with AoE. Like Force Field. IIRC, it is established that this doesn't create a Force Wall type of effect, or allow others to use my Force Field.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Flight AoE is not the same as Flight UBO' date=' unless it's bought with that Advantage as well (IMO). [/quote']

 

This is the crux of Phil's misunderstanding of the rules being discussed here (not a house-rule interpretation of them).

 

If I use Hero Designer V3 (which is based on the most current "official" interpretation of 5er rules by Mr. Long and Mr. Simon) to attempt to add the advantage Area Of Affect to Flight I get the following response.

 

"Area Of Effect can only be applied to Powers which are targeted on others."

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

You need Usable as Attack or Usable By Others for an AOE flight.

 

My Barker Air example would probably be Usable As Attack, AOE, with a linked KA.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

This is the crux of Phil's misunderstanding of the rules being discussed here (not a house-rule interpretation of them).

 

If I use Hero Designer V3 (which is based on the most current "official" interpretation of 5ER rules by Mr. Long and Mr. Simon) to attempt to add the advantage Area Of Affect to Flight I get the following response.

 

"Area Of Effect can only be applied to Powers which are targeted on others."

 

I don't have HDv3. If you could, HM, would you let us know if that changes if you add UOO (UBO) to the Flight first?

 

After re-re-re-reading the text on p 274 of 5ER, I think I may be restricting myself too much, though I'm not entirely convinced. It details that if the base power has a method of increasing the mass affected, that is used instead of the +1/4 additional advantage to UOO to increase mass affected. Since it is the same +1/4 cost to also increase # of targets, I rationalized that the rule would apply to that as well, thus ruling out using AoE to get extra targets.

 

But re-introducing UOO into the mix brings me back to one of my earlier points: That by the defined F/X, it is the character with the flight that is controlling it (and spending the END), not the characters that are "along for the ride".

 

Think of this: Storm is flying along, bringing several other (normally non-fliers) X-Men with her. If it's Flight UBO, then each other character is controlling his own flight. A sentinel targets Cyclops while the group is flying. The shot stuns him. His flight (given by UBO) shuts off and he falls! This directly contradicts the fact that it is Storm that is doing the transporting.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I don't have HDv3. If you could, HM, would you let us know if that changes if you add UOO (UBO) to the Flight first?

 

sure,

 

Examples of Variable Target "Flight":

 

1) Telekinesis (25 STR), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Unlimited # of unwilling targets.] - END=7

 

1a) Flight 5", Position Shift* (* or any other method to get base power = to 15 active points), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (x8 maximum weight per inanimate target; +1 3/4), Area Of Effect (20" Radius; +1 1/2), Selective (+1/4) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Maximum of 8 unwilling targets. AOE + Range only means that center of AOE can be something other than the power's owner] - END=7

 

2) Flight 10", Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Usable As Attack (x8 maximum weight per inanimate target; +1 3/4) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Maximum of 8 unwilling targets.] - END=7

 

3) Flight 15", Ranged (+1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be SHARED among a maximum of 8 willing targets (including owner). ] - END=7

 

4) Flight 15", Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be shared with 1 target (or granted to 2) within 5" radius simultaneously.] - END=7

 

5) Flight 25", Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be shared with 1 target (or granted to 2) via touch* simultaneously. * Only required to initially grant power, once granted only line of sight is required to maintain.] - END=7

 

6) Flight 30", Usable By Other (+1/4) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be granted (but not used at same time) to 1 target via touch*. * Only required to initially grant power, once granted only line of sight is required to maintain.] - END=7

 

 

further notes:

END is paid by EVERY user in the case of "Usable By Other" and Usuable Simultaneously" but is only paid by the owner in the case of TK and "Usable As Attack".

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

 

Think of this: Storm is flying along, bringing several other (normally non-fliers) X-Men with her. If it's Flight UBO, then each other character is controlling his own flight. A sentinel targets Cyclops while the group is flying. The shot stuns him. His flight (given by UBO) shuts off and he falls! This directly contradicts the fact that it is Storm that is doing the transporting.

 

I usually think of that effect as wind based TK. YMMV.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

If you've lifted off the ground (regardless of who's Flight is doing it)' date=' what solid surface do you have to get traction to Run or Leap, or Liquid surface/substance to Swim?[/quote']

How about the carpet, as I mentioned in my first post, the second one on the thread? Otherwise, it doesn't matter anyway, since you aren't grabbed and it's not UAA Flight that the "true" flyer is controlling, so you "fly" (in whatever form that takes, depending on the SFX and the way the power works) out of the Area of Effect. I have never advocated that you should get UAA for free just by buying AoE.

 

Flight AoE is not the same as Flight UBO, unless it's bought with that Advantage as well (IMO).

I've never claimed otherwise. In fact they aren't the same even if you do buy both advantages. Flight UBO allows a person to fly independently. Flight AoE allows those in a limited area around you to fly with you as long as they stay with you. Hence the flying carpet example, or the Storm-like wind-riding example.

 

Invisibility AoE doesn't have any ramifications for preventing the persons in the AoE from using their own movement powers to leave the AoE.

Neither does Flight AoE. Why? Because you haven't *paid* for any.

 

What if Flight Guy first has his friend, Mr. Mental, to Mind Control someone to "go along willingly". Now he is a passenger?

Sure, but so what? What if you leave the Flight Guy out of it and just have Mr. Mental issue the MC command, "come along willingly, using your normal movement mode"?

 

I am fairly sure there are other powers that don't work with AoE. Like Force Field. IIRC, it is established that this doesn't create a Force Wall type of effect, or allow others to use my Force Field.

Why couldn't you take FF with AoE? It's true that it doesn't create a Force Wall - a barrier that prevents movement - but it does give everyone in the area (friend and foe alike) additional resistant defenses. I've used just such a power for a "zone of peace" effect that dampens all violence (or at least the resulting injuries) within the area. Two people within an AoE FF can whack at each other all they like and never hurt each other (assuming a sufficiently strong power). It's great for training practice or just working out your frustrations. If you add Selective Target, you can protect yourself and your buddies, leaving your enemies without the added defense. It certainly isn't fool-proof: the enemy(s) can always use ranged attacks from outside the Area, or use attacks that bypass the defences of the FF, or grab a hostage (one of your allies) and drag him out of the area, etc.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

...

Neither does Flight AoE. Why? Because you haven't *paid* for any.

 

please see my earlier post on this.

 

AOE is not a legal advantage for Flight or any other movement power for that matter unless it already has some variation of Usable By Others already applied.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

This is the crux of Phil's misunderstanding of the rules being discussed here (not a house-rule interpretation of them).

 

If I use Hero Designer V3 (which is based on the most current "official" interpretation of 5er rules by Mr. Long and Mr. Simon) to attempt to add the advantage Area Of Affect to Flight I get the following response.

 

"Area Of Effect can only be applied to Powers which are targeted on others."

I do not "misunderstand" the rules! If Hero Designer doesn't let you do this, that's HD's failing.

 

You need Usable as Attack or Usable By Others for an AOE flight.

No you don't. Not if that isn't the effect you want. UBO is for *independent* use of the power. This thread is about *passengers* - they come with you, they can't fly about on their own. And yes, if you want to *force* them to come along, you need UAA, or Grab, or something else.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

 

No you don't. Not if that isn't the effect you want. UBO is for *independent* use of the power. This thread is about *passengers* - they come with you, they can't fly about on their own. And yes, if you want to *force* them to come along, you need UAA, or Grab, or something else.

 

Hmm, I thought there was a version of UBO that didn't give them control over the power. I must've misremembered that, sorry. I still think TK is probably the easiest way to haul extra extra people along with you.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Flight lists it's target as Self Only. 5ER, p 101 says "Self Only Powers are Powers that only affect the character himself." The usual way to change this is to use some form of UOO. AoE by itself isn't valid because Flight only affects the person with the Flight.

 

Putting it into a large Focus (like your AoE Flying Carpet, Phil) gets around this IMO because it is a physical object that can be attacked, grabbed and held onto (for hitchhikers), people can be knocked off of it, and they can jump/run off of it if they so choose, since it is the Focus that is lifting them, not the power itself.

 

Passengers, willing or not, are targets. Flight, being Self Only, can't affect any targets outside the character without either being an AoE Focus or by being UBO/UAA.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Hmm' date=' I thought there was a version of UBO that didn't give them control over the power. I must've misremembered that, sorry. I still think TK is probably the easiest way to haul extra extra people along with you.[/quote']

 

There is. It costs +1 and is called Usable As Attack. Retaining control over the movement of others is IMO why it costs so much more. Even if that control is benign and requires a willing target.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I do not "misunderstand" the rules! If Hero Designer doesn't let you do this, that's HD's failing.

 

 

No you don't. Not if that isn't the effect you want. UBO is for *independent* use of the power. This thread is about *passengers* - they come with you, they can't fly about on their own. And yes, if you want to *force* them to come along, you need UAA, or Grab, or something else.

 

You are discussing your house rules, not the official 5er rules at this point.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

I do not "misunderstand" the rules! If Hero Designer doesn't let you do this, that's HD's failing.

 

 

No you don't. Not if that isn't the effect you want. UBO is for *independent* use of the power. This thread is about *passengers* - they come with you, they can't fly about on their own. And yes, if you want to *force* them to come along, you need UAA, or Grab, or something else.

I haven't checked the FAQ, but I believe that simply applying AoE (and only AoE) to Flight will not accomplish a "passenger effect." Flight's target is "self", and AoE specifically states that it will affect all targets in its area, implying that only characters that are the using character's self will be affected. So with this method, you've just doubled the cost of Flight for no additional effect. If you also add in UBO or Usable Simo, you've also done nothing. If you add UAA, then you can blanket an area to affect everyone in it with a Flight Power.

 

The sidebar next to Usable By Others specifically uses Flight as an example Power of what you might want to buy as a "group ability," and suggests using just Usable Simo or UAA, with no mention of AoE, implying AoE is completely unnecessary in either case.

 

Regardless, I still think TK is a better choice for a passenger effect for any (well, most) Movement Power. Just pick up the passengers and go; you pay the END and decide where everyone is going.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

Flight lists it's target as Self Only. 5ER' date=' p 101 says "Self Only Powers are Powers that [b']only affect the character himself[/b]." The usual way to change this is to use some form of UOO. AoE by itself isn't valid because Flight only affects the person with the Flight.

So what? AoE changes a power from one that affects one person, to one that effects everyone in an area. Same as any other power bought AoE.

 

Putting it into a large Focus (like your AoE Flying Carpet, Phil) gets around this IMO because it is a physical object that can be attacked, grabbed and held onto (for hitchhikers), people can be knocked off of it, and they can jump/run off of it if they so choose, since it is the Focus that is lifting them, not the power itself.

This is an argument from SFX. You can't force mechanics to change because you've defined a particular SFX. You're basically saying that a limitation gives an advantage in this case. What if the flying carpet isn't a Focus? Suddenly the rules change because you didn't take the Focus Limitation?

 

Passengers, willing or not, are targets. Flight, being Self Only, can't affect any targets outside the character without either being an AoE Focus or by being UBO/UAA.

But those aren't the effects I want. Shouldn't I be allowed to buy the effects I want? UAA is for *forcing* someone else to fly, usually separately from where you might fly. That's not what I want. UBO allows another to fly independantly wherever they want, separately from you if they like. That also isn't what I want.

 

Sure you could buy UAA and then tack on limitations "Only to fly with the user" and "Only if willing" but then it still doesn't work the way I want it to. You'd need even more modifiers (you'd *still* need AoE, for one), and "Each Individual Has (partial) Control". The result is a much more complicated and confusing build.

 

Or you could start with UBO and AoE, and add modifiers "Only to fly with the user" and "Any or all persons in the Area can come along" and you have to buy the UBO to be able to carry an arbitrarily large number of people. This is also far more complicated than it needs to be.

 

Remember the KISS principle (being discussed in another thread). I use just plain AoE. It's simple, it's fair, it makes sense, it does what I want. Those four points, IMO, trump any quibbling rules arguement (or interpretation) you might make. And remember there are *lots* of rules "violations" in the *officially* published books. The most recent one I saw was Persistant applied to an Instant power. If Steve Long can bend the rules when it makes sense, is fair, is simple, and works, then so can I.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

....AoE changes a power from one that affects one person, to one that effects everyone in an area. Same as any other power bought AoE.

...

 

According to the default rules this is incorrect. GM permision (aka houserule) is required.

 

From the current 5er FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/POWER%20ADVANTAGES%20AND%20ADDERS.htm

 

Ranged

 

Q: If a character purchases the Ranged Advantage for a non-Ranged non-Attack Power, and also purchases the Area Of Effect Advantage for that power, does he also need to purchase the Usable On Others Advantage (as described under Ranged) to affect targets?

 

A: As a general rule, yes. Of course, GMs can make exceptions if they feel it’s worthwhile to do so.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

That FAQ Q&A doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about here. Read the title of the thread: "Flight with Passengers". IOW, "These people near me are coming along with me," not "Send those people over there (at range) flying."

[Dust Raven]

Re: Flight with Passengers - What's the Best Way?

 

That FAQ Q&A doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about here. Read the title of the thread: "Flight with Passengers". IOW' date=' "These people near me are coming along with me," not "Send those people over there (at range) flying."[/quote']

Interesting dodge. I find that particular FAQ entry extremely applicable to this discussion. While we're not talking about putting Range on anything, we are talking about the combination of Usable By Others and AoE, or the effects of not combining them. If you reworded the question, removing the reference to the irrelevant term as so:

 

"Q: If a character purchases a non-Attack Power, and also purchases the Area Of Effect Advantage for that power, does he also need to purchase the Usable On Others Advantage to affect targets?"

 

...the answer would be the same.

 

If I'm wrong may Dan Simon strike me down.