Some Thoughts On Rules

[RDU Neil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I'd say the one of the most valuable effects of Homing is that it potentially keeps the target running' date=' dodging and diving for cover for several phases, burning his actions evading an attack rather than acting himself (unless he has a DCV or defenses high enough not to worry about it). From a tactical POV, that can be as or more useful than just landing a shot. Brace and set won't do that. That's part of the reason, if the GM wants to incorporate the Homing effect, to either make it its own advantage or go the summon route.[/quote']

 

Ok... cool. That raises another question.

 

"Increasing a chance to hit via more time" is a mechanical effect.

 

"Keeping my opponent dodging and spending actions avoiding the attack" is a SFX/game play effect. In many ways, much harder to "build."

 

1. You are trying to force a target character to act in a certain way. "waste time dodging and weaving" (So are we going the Mind Control route?)

 

2. You are shooting for an end result that is actually out of control (sans Mind Control) of your character... so should it really be what we are shooting for?

 

3. What are the limits of "powers" that are defined purely by SFX rather than mechanics.

 

 

So in many ways, Hero forces you (using "you" in the generic sense) to deconstruct your assumptions. Am I trying to build a power that damages? Am I trying to build a power that forces my opponent to waste phases. (Mechanical interpretation). I'm trying to build a power that makes my enemy dodge and weave and run away. (SFX interpretation) I'm trying to Sim a homing missile. (Sim SFX interpretation)

 

Each possible way of looking at the issue drives different ways of addressing the issue. Problem is that Hero not only assumes each way of looking at the issue is equally valid (neutral play point of view) but that each way is INTERCHANGABLE (lacking defined design intent). This is the problem... two people can both say they want a Homing Missile, but they are thinking of two different aspects of "what a homing missile is/does" and may not agree on approach.

 

The reason I bring up this stuff is that the GM (taking the traditional Hero POV of "GM allows or disallows builds") should know how they are judging "yes" vs. "no" based on concepts above... but those are very convoluted and nuanced concepts... made all the harder because Hero as a system refuses to provide guidance or standards for certain kinds of play.

 

Reason from effect is a good start on guidance... but which effect? How do you compare various effects? Can you have multiple effects? Which are SFX effects compared to mechanical effects?

 

 

Interesting... but Homing Missile is, in many ways... a perfect case studies for examining where Hero fails to help actual play. That to me is the big flaw... I don't believe a generic toolkit can really exist... and Hero as is, certainly isn't one no matter what it claims... and as a generic system, there is still a designed play experience and design intent which should be addressed directly and not left up to painful trial and error by players.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

re: forcing targets to dodge an attack.

 

I think this something that rarely happens in HERO because the relative power levels of champions (probably the most common genre) player characters are so often in the 350-450pt range. Dr. Destroyer level threats are usually the exception rather than the rule so when players are presented with an attack as dangerous as Darksied's Omega Beams (which is essentially a homing attack) they may not treat it with the respect it deserves due to the relative non-lethal campaign norms. Whose fault is this? Maybe the GM isn't conveying the danger enough. Maybe the players are power gaming too much and not roleplaying enough.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

Also,

 

Regarding 'Homing Missles' in general....

 

I am no expert on the subject but it seems like most real world self guided missles only have 1 chance to hit their target. If a sidewinder or sparrow misses on the first pass they don't swing around for a second attempt. The only real world exception to this I can think of is submarine torpedoes and even that might just be a Hollywood creation.

 

It just occured to me that one of the expectations of 'homing missles' (forcing a target to duck/dodge etc..) is really a matter of intimidation and should really be handled by the existing PRE rules instead of going into such fine detail on the actual combat mechanics. Don't get me wrong, I love combat mechanics but there are situations where it is best to just step back from them as a GM. The only time they would be a major issue (in this case) is if the players in a non-super game got a hold of a high tech 'homing missle' launcher. Even then, there would most likely be a limited number of shots available so a 'GM handwavium' effect might still be appropriate.

[archermoo]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

Also,

 

Regarding 'Homing Missles' in general....

 

I am no expert on the subject but it seems like most real world self guided missles only have 1 chance to hit their target. If a sidewinder or sparrow misses on the first pass they don't swing around for a second attempt. The only real world exception to this I can think of is submarine torpedoes and even that might just be a Hollywood creation.

 

It just occured to me that one of the expectations of 'homing missles' (forcing a target to duck/dodge etc..) is really a matter of intimidation and should really be handled by the existing PRE rules instead of going into such fine detail on the actual combat mechanics. Don't get me wrong, I love combat mechanics but there are situations where it is best to just step back from them as a GM. The only time they would be a major issue (in this case) is if the players in a non-super game got a hold of a high tech 'homing missle' launcher. Even then, there would most likely be a limited number of shots available so a 'GM handwavium' effect might still be appropriate.

 

As a note, as far as the real world goes, homing missiles will in general continue trying to find their target until they run out of fuel. It is just that only with torps are the speeds sufficiently low, the turn modes sufficiently high, and the run time sufficiently long that they might actually get more than one shot.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

As a note' date=' as far as the real world goes, homing missiles will in general continue trying to find their target until they run out of fuel. It is just that only with torps are the speeds sufficiently low, the turn modes sufficiently high, and the run time sufficiently long that they might actually get more than one shot. [/quote']

 

another possible issue is that most self guided missles sensors (heat, radar, laser) have more a limited arc of perception (less than 180 degrees i'd bet) than torpedoes using sonar. As a result, when they miss and overshoot they probably lose 'target lock' as well.

[archermoo]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

another possible issue is that most self guided missles sensors (heat' date=' radar, laser) have more a limited arc of perception (less than 180 degrees i'd bet) than torpedoes using sonar. As a result, when they miss and overshoot they probably lose 'target lock' as well.[/quote']

 

Prolly so. I'm guessing that their arc or perception is in the single digits, though I'll admit that is just a guess.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

OK, we look at effect. What is the effect of 'homing'? If it is just 'increased chance to hit' then levels with extra time is favourite.

 

If it is 'dodge or be hit you can still use levels, but differently.

 

+5 to hit (5 point levels)

 

Only for one attack (-1)

Only to increase chance to hit (-1/2)

Doesn't hit if the target acts defensively (5-levels needed to hit) -1/2

 

SO, if you'd have hit anyway, you hit anyway, if you needed 1 level to hit, the target can avoid the damage if they spend (5-1)=4 phases acting defensively (dodging or moving only) etc.

 

Still works.

 

Don't like summon as it is hassle. Each to their own though.

 

OTOH 'multipass homing' effect is very dependent on the base chance to hit: if you were only hitting on 8-, then 4 passes still leaves you a 30% miss chance. If the base chance was 11- then four passes leaves you with a miss chance of less than 2%. Let us face it: it is not against the easy to hit target you'll feel the need for a homing missile...

 

I don't think there is a right way to do it, but I do think there is a right way to go about doing it: start by deciding the effect you want. Homing means differerent things to different people.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I'm still contemplating the possible to-hit advantage. I think it'd simulate the Omega Effect or Nexus' blasts a bit better ...

[zornwil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I was being pithy. I meant "No... it is not part of Hero. If you can create a non-Hero mechanic to emulate this... go for it... but Hero itself says "NO" to magic missiles, homing missiles (missiles in general, really), invulnerabilty, etc."

 

 

Even if there is some "Bolt On" mechanic that somehow plays nice with Hero for these things... I highly doubt it would be "built from existing mechanics" as much as "an entirely new mechanic that is Hero-ish..." Even then, I doubt it is a Mechanic as much as a Game Rule... something that really only works within the established play experience of that game... not something universally applicable.

 

If that is the case, you've essentially just "written down your hand waving" rather than really built anything new. If a build is so hyper-contextual as to really only work/make sense in a very limited play environment then I'd say that is still just hand waving... you just documented it. There needs to be some portability/multi-application to a build for it to be a House Rule or new mechanic.

 

IMO of course.

Yeah, that makes sense. Sorry for taking you too literally.

[zornwil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

---poking head up like a prairie dog as the dust settles and Odd Hat and Tesuji return to their respective corners---

 

So... the question on the Homing Missile really should not be "How do I Sim this effect?" It should be, "What is the end result in Hero terms of the effect of a homing missile?"

 

To some the end result is really "Increased chance to hit, maybe taking extra time." In that case... do we need a build or is it SFX for maneuvers that already exist. I mean, we have +1 OCV and +2 vs range for Brace and Set. You could rule that a Homing Missile is auto-using this maneuver and translate it as "Missile fires but won't have a chance to hit until the phase later with Brace and Set bonuses calc'd at that time."

 

There you go... not perfect, but a simple interpretation of Homing Missile by interpreting from end result... not from trying to Sim a concept. This is one point where we need to remember "reason from effect."

 

Hero can get quite convoluted and kludgy when we try to Sim concept, instead of reason from effect. (I think this can happen because reason-from-effect can make a lot of VERY different SFX look very plain and unsexy on the sheet. As a GM, I love the fact that a simple power can be described a hundred ways for the players... but players want their SHEET to reflect high differentiation from another sheet. Again, part of Hero's internal conflict (cake and eat it).

Considering the board traditions here, maybe we should be saying "have our pie and eat it..."

[zornwil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

re: forcing targets to dodge an attack.

 

I think this something that rarely happens in HERO because the relative power levels of champions (probably the most common genre) player characters are so often in the 350-450pt range. Dr. Destroyer level threats are usually the exception rather than the rule so when players are presented with an attack as dangerous as Darksied's Omega Beams (which is essentially a homing attack) they may not treat it with the respect it deserves due to the relative non-lethal campaign norms. Whose fault is this? Maybe the GM isn't conveying the danger enough. Maybe the players are power gaming too much and not roleplaying enough.

 

Just some thoughts.

First, as to where this whole dodge-and-weave thing came up, I wasn't considering that, either, and I think RDU Neil's points are exactly the thought process pretty much to consider. I was thinking more along the lines of "this thing is going to get increasingly likely to hit you," not, per se, "you better start running as this thing is bearing down on you."

 

To your comment, I've been trying to formulate a post for the general roleplaying thread about what "failure" means in RPG design, not so much incremental failure, but real failure, such as real character death, the loss of the world to the villain, etc.. Because this important aspect of RPGing needs to be somehow simultaneously real as a threat (for most games, anyway) yet not really something likely to happen - or perhaps, for many gamers, to be avoided at all costs except where the players WANT to be dead/fail (in which case of course it's moved away from failure and become a roleplaying desire).

 

But the issue is so complex and cuts across so many variables I can't seem to write a coherent post on the considerations and complexity.

 

PS - and Hyper-man, I totally agree as to the reaction of most characters in superhero games that I've been around.

[OddHat]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

Re - Supers Dodging.

 

This will depend on who's attacking who and where you set defenses and damage caps in a campaign. In a "genre of its own" Champions game where everyone has a 12 DC attack, 5 SPD, and expects to be able to take 2.5 shots before going down, you'll certainly see less dodging and diving for cover than in a game where DC and defenses vary widely, and the Superman homage is probably going to DFC less often than the Black Canary homage. I've seen a lot of Dodging and DFC in my own campaign over the last year or so, after an online game convinced me to lower defenses for characters that didn't have invulnerability as a schtick, but then I don't run a standard CU game.

 

Re- Summon is a pain for homing attacks.

 

I haven't found it to be so.

 

60 points gets you a 150 point slavishly loyal "missile", enough points for something that can do a 12d6 move through and die in the process, or keep attacking until it's out of fuel or shot down. It takes you an extra phase to launch the missile. Lift the 12d6 cap and it's much more effective.

 

Of course, an advantage would be simpler.

[zornwil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I just wanted to chime in on HM's point - I can't speak for others' games, but what I've seen has had fairly little dodging and such, though I"m not saying there's none. I am not sure how others would see it (and of course, certain character types will also vary here, e.g., I would think the typical MA would be dodging/DFCing more than anyone, and I have seen that - in fact, to the degree I recall any dodging/such it's really just been the ones who are closest to being an MA across the years)

[OddHat]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I just wanted to chime in on HM's point - I can't speak for others' games' date=' but what I've seen has had fairly little dodging and such, though I"m not saying there's none. I am not sure how others would see it (and of course, certain character types will also vary here, e.g., I would think the typical MA would be dodging/DFCing more than anyone, and I have seen that - in fact, to the degree I recall any dodging/such it's really just been the ones who are closest to being an MA across the years)[/quote']

 

I actually agree that dodging can be rare in HERO, especially in genre-unto-itself Champions games. OTOH, I've been in a game where most characters defenses were limited to 2x the average DCs in the campaign and where massed attacks by large numbers of foes were common. In that campaign, DFCs and Dodges were a major feature of combats, as was trying to force the PCs and enemies to waste phases. In my own current campaign, there's really no top limit to DCs as such, and most PCs have defenses set at 2* the damage classes they themselves put out with their default attack (though two PCs also have some Damage Reduction); the players end up dodging and diving for cover against some foes, while sucking up attacks from others. I find it much more interesting than the less tactical slugfests I was running in more standardized campaigns.

[zornwil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I actually agree that dodging can be rare in HERO' date=' especially in genre-unto-itself Champions games. OTOH, I've been in a game where most characters defenses were limited to 2x the average DCs in the campaign and where massed attacks by large numbers of foes were common. In that campaign, DFCs and Dodges were a major feature of combats, as was trying to force the PCs and enemies to waste phases. In my own current campaign, there's really no top limit to DCs as such, and most PCs have defenses set at 2* the damage classes they themselves put out with their default attack (though two PCs also have some Damage Reduction); the players end up dodging and diving for cover against some foes, while sucking up attacks from others. I find it much more interesting than the less tactical slugfests I was running in more standardized campaigns.[/quote']

That's cool. With no DC limits, I found people generally get a lot more conservative about defenses, just different experiences. Some of this may be there's a substantial number of AoE and some more exotic attacks, dunno.

[OddHat]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

That's cool. With no DC limits' date=' I found people generally get a lot more conservative about defenses, just different experiences. Some of this may be there's a substantial number of AoE and some more exotic attacks, dunno.[/quote']

 

I should mention that I asked the players to keep the defenses down to 2*DC of the character's default attack unless Invulnerability was a primary schtick, specifically to speed combat.

 

As to the tougher PCs, we do have a Shape Changer with 50% Damage Reduction PD based on being squishy, and a Dragon with 3/4 Damage reduction and extra armor vs Fire/Heat plus very high CON, BOD and regeneration. The Shape Changer is less likely to dodge physical attacks, and the Dragon doesn't bother dodging much at all unless she's low on Stun or facing something she thinks can one punch her.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

Another stray conversion idea ... Equipment Points (ep) ... 1 pt/5 ep. Basically works like Base/Vehicle points, but for regular equipment as well ..

[gojira]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

Hmm, for "real world" applications, I'd think that No Range Modifier or Skill levels, Only to offset Dodge, might work. Just from what few things I've seen on TV, using a homing missile instead of guns means you can't quite line up a shot, either due to distance or target maneuvering.

 

For a omega beam type application, it seems like it's equal to + chance to hit, and entangle (because it keeps the target occupied). That might be worth +1.5, consider you are getting an improved power (the + to hit) as well as effectively a second one (the entangle).

 

Offseting the +1.5 advantage would be how easy it is for someone else, or you, to negate the homing missile. If it can be shot down, blocked, Missile Deflected, or even someone else can leap in front of it and take the hit, this might reduce the value of the advantage.

[zornwil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

Another stray conversion idea ... Equipment Points (ep) ... 1 pt/5 ep. Basically works like Base/Vehicle points' date=' but for regular equipment as well ..[/quote']

I thought of that but I am afraid that for a first HERO campaign this might add more complexity, one more ruleset thing, and has to be balanced against the supers' powers, should the other supers have any resource points, etc.. So I"m a little leary of this for the group. But you were right to bring it up, I mean no offense.

[OddHat]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I thought of that but I am afraid that for a first HERO campaign this might add more complexity' date=' one more ruleset thing, and has to be balanced against the supers' powers, should the other supers have any resource points, etc.. So I"m a little leary of this for the group. But you were right to bring it up, I mean no offense.[/quote']

 

I've long allowed players to have equipment with no or trivial combat value for free, as well as useful items that further the plot for a single scene (flashlight, first aid kit, whatever), subject to common and dramatic sense. A 1/5 deal in a Supers setting for real tech with real problems seems pretty reasonable, especially as you could get most of the better items through the vehicle and follower rules for that price anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I've long allowed players to have equipment with no or trivial combat value for free' date=' as well as useful items that further the plot for a single scene (flashlight, first aid kit, whatever), subject to common and dramatic sense. A 1/5 deal in a Supers setting for real tech with real problems seems pretty reasonable, especially as you could get most of the better items through the vehicle and follower rules for that price anyway.[/quote']

As long as it's truly normal equipment. I don't think that's what the "Punisher" wants, but, anyway, sure, I do the same (meaning as you, not the 1/5 resource points thing), I agree.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I would think by "real" equipment, I'd define it as things you'd see in a store or even through some dubious channels. This would include many things that someone like the Punisher may get, but not the stuff in Reed Richard's lab or even some of the stuff seen by advanced SHIELD agents ...

[transmetahuman]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I can see the rank system. The problem is that HERO already gives you this as a 0 point modifier in the focus rules. In a campaign where you ask HERO players to pay for the level of restriction on their focus' date=' I'm not sure all that many will want to do so, especially as it would raise active point costs without having significant combat value in most campaigns.[/quote']

I was thinking keeping Personal and Universal at default, by the same rationale HERO uses - but possibly allowing other levels for situations where you can easily let your teammates borrow the device, but a foe would have a hard time making it work ("you don't know the command word"). That gives you the best of both Personal and Universal, with the downsides of neither, and should be an advantage.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Some Thoughts On Rules

 

I'm with Lord Mhoram on this... Personal Focus is the rule to cover "restricted" The SFX (worthiness... that's my ring you can't use it) is the interpretation in play.

 

As for "roll again" my Luck Chit rules cover that. It is one of the basic uses of chits... throw a chit to reroll a roll you control. It turn out to be used more when a damage roll is for crap... as it least in my experience players are less bugged by "missing" than they are by "I hit and didn't do anything." Even when the re-roll is for crap, there seems to be more acceptance of "Well... I had two chances... I guess I'm hosed" than being grumpy about it.

 

For the full list of my Luck Chit rules... do a search under House Rules... you'll find lots of references.

I should hope so I posted them often enough.

 

LOL

 

QM