Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

[Stone]

Ok. The ability I am trying to build is more powerful version the Detect Emotions listed in USPD & Ultimate Mentalist (pg 121). It does the same, but also allows the user to identify people by their "emotional fingrprint" and track them. The user is able to determine the number of minds around him/her as well (similar to mind scan).

 

Emotion sense - Detect Emotions (single thing, Mental Group), discriminatory, Analyze, 360 perception, sense, targeting, tracking 35 points

 

I know I have talked about this before, but I wanted to read through the ultimate mentalist a bit before I posted again to make sure this was a valid build.

[OddHat]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I think I'd add "Range", but it looks valid enough. I'd also, as an environmental effect, say that Mental Defense stops it and large crowds impose penalties if you're looking for just one mind. I'd base those on the penalties for sight in various conditions. This would be for dramatic reasons and my own approach to "balance" more than anything else.

[Stone]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

Thanks, I will make the adjustments

[Sean Waters]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

One major flaw with the otherwise excellent approach that Hero takes to senses is this: what blocks them? It is apparent, given the way that N-Ray is now built, that senses are not stopped by anythin in particular, but should be stopped by something.

 

I don't like the 'sense emotions' detect as a GM because it reeks of abuse potential. Perfectly legitimate build but I very much doubt it would get anywhere near any game I ran in that form.

 

This may depend on what stops the sesne though: on the face of it it is far more useful than the points imply.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

One major flaw with the otherwise excellent approach that Hero takes to senses is this: what blocks them? It is apparent, given the way that N-Ray is now built, that senses are not stopped by anythin in particular, but should be stopped by something.

 

I don't like the 'sense emotions' detect as a GM because it reeks of abuse potential. Perfectly legitimate build but I very much doubt it would get anywhere near any game I ran in that form.

 

This may depend on what stops the sesne though: on the face of it it is far more useful than the points imply.

I agree. Rather than see it built as a Sense, I think I'd prefer to see it bought as Telepathy with appropriate Limitations.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

Let's see ... I would:

 

Buy it Ranged.

But it as a class of things rather than a single thing (a single thing would be detecting a specific emotion).

 

However, if it's intended to identify people by an emotional fingerprint, as it were, I don't know if I'd allow that on the general principle that emotions are pretty universal. A more specific 'Detect Mind' or 'Mental Pattern' with discriminatory and analyze would probably be closer to the concept in general.

 

As far as blocking goes, it would depend on the SFX, but Mental Defense would be the logical one if it's a 'reading'.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

You said it was similar to Mind Scan. Why not use Mind Scan? It's already got rules for detecting over a large area, range, and so forth. More dice increases the chance of success. The problem with building it as a sense is that it ALWAYS works, unless someone has a "Darkness to Emotion Sense" in the area.

[Stone]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I agree. Rather than see it built as a Sense' date=' I think I'd prefer to see it bought as Telepathy with appropriate Limitations.[/quote']

 

Hmm...well Ultimate Mentalist pg 49 says a character can use mind scan to determine the number of sentient minds in an area using a base DECV of 3 modified by the number of people.

 

While this does allow the character to do one aspect of what I was looking for, it does not allow for other abilities I was looking for. Ultimate Mentalist also has Read Emotions pg 119 (Telepathy really. Greater than EGO read emotions, EGo +10 deeper reading what caused the emotions, EGO +20 emotional memories, EGO +30 read subconscious instances of emotions).

 

I would perfer not have to make two seperate rolls (1 mind scan & 1 telepathy) in order to achieve the same as 1 Sense Emotions roll.

[Stone]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

You said it was similar to Mind Scan. Why not use Mind Scan? It's already got rules for detecting over a large area' date=' range, and so forth. More dice increases the chance of success. The problem with building it as a sense is that it ALWAYS works, unless someone has a "Darkness to Emotion Sense" in the area.[/quote']

 

Since it is in the mental group, I was going to have mental defense work against the sense. Mind Scan inheritly has a mega scale ability (planet wide) added to it. What type of limitation would it be to limit the range and what would be a reasonable range? Using Telepathy for reading of the emotion would fall under the line of sight. Again, what would the limitations be to limit the range and what would be a reasonable range?

 

As far as it always working, I am not trying to find a munckin way. Radar pretty much always works as well. I am open to suggestions, but to me using mind scan and telepathy is a "clunky" way to do this.

[Stone]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

Ok I found the normal range limitation. As you can tell, I don't play mentalist very often.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

Hmm...well Ultimate Mentalist pg 49 says a character can use mind scan to determine the number of sentient minds in an area using a base DECV of 3 modified by the number of people.

 

While this does allow the character to do one aspect of what I was looking for, it does not allow for other abilities I was looking for. Ultimate Mentalist also has Read Emotions pg 119 (Telepathy really. Greater than EGO read emotions, EGo +10 deeper reading what caused the emotions, EGO +20 emotional memories, EGO +30 read subconscious instances of emotions).

 

I would perfer not have to make two seperate rolls (1 mind scan & 1 telepathy) in order to achieve the same as 1 Sense Emotions roll.

Why would you need to make two rolls except in those (probably rare) instances where the person whose emotions are being read is not in line of sight? A mentalist with Telepathy doesn't have to use Mind Scan unless he can't see the person whose mind he's reading. Otherwise he just rolls for effect.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I think the range penalties are all listed in Mind Scan. The larger the area you cover, the bigger the penalty to find someone. Generally, you wouldn't really need a limitation on Mind Scan to simulate being unable to find people far away. You'd simply buy less dice for it.

 

Overall, it sounds like you're describing two seperate powers. One to determine someone's emotions (Telepathy) and one to find someone (Mind Scan). It makes sense that this could be done as a multipower.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

Erhhhm, except with a multipower you couldn't use Mind Scan and also Telepathy on the target. Hmmm..... Well you could always buy the two powers seperately.

[Frenchman]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

Rather than see it built as a Sense' date=' I think I'd prefer to see it bought as Telepathy with appropriate Limitations.[/quote']

 

You said it was similar to Mind Scan. Why not use Mind Scan?

 

Big, Fat, Dittos.

This came around from the other direction in a how to: Detect Magic thread on the FH forum.

Detects allow you to sense something, but they don't tell you what it is - you need other knowledge for that. FREX: You see a Globbersnatcher. You've never seen one before, and you have never heard of one or had one described to you. You have no idea what it is. You still see it, you just can't do much with the information until you find out stuff about it. The sense power doesn't tell you anything about the Globbersnatcher. You could describe it to someone and they could tell you about it, if they know anything, but the detect alone doesn't allow you to know what it is.

 

For a simple Detect Emotions Power, I'd probably allow a sense - because you, presumably, have emotions and therefore are familiar with them, so you can recognize them when you see them.

This is a bit more than that though, and it seems to me that with Analyze and Discriminatory on it you could not only tell what someone is feeling, but what the target(s) of their emotions are and why - and that sounds like Telepathy to me.

'course, maybe your power can't do more than tell basic moods and allow you to recognize individuals you've sensed before - then Detect sounds fine to me.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

'course' date=' maybe your power can't do more than tell basic moods and allow you to recognize individuals you've sensed before - then Detect sounds fine to me.[/quote']

 

That was how I was reading it ... not "She's mad because her husband blew the rent money on lottery tickets" or "She's scared because a guy in a long trenchcoat has been shadowing her for eight blocks", which would definitely be Telepathy. I was assuming the power would just say "She's mad" or "She's scared" at the Discriminatory, with 'intensities' at Analyze (irked/annoyed/ticked/enraged/furious, for example).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

That was how I was reading it ... not "She's mad because her husband blew the rent money on lottery tickets" or "She's scared because a guy in a long trenchcoat has been shadowing her for eight blocks"' date=' which would definitely be Telepathy. I was assuming the power would just say "She's mad" or "She's scared" at the Discriminatory, with 'intensities' at Analyze (irked/annoyed/ticked/enraged/furious, for example).[/quote']I'm pretty much in agreement with this. If all the Detect Emotion gives is a general sense of the person's emotions (frightened, nervous, angry, sad, happy) then I'm OK with it as a Detect. If it's giving detailed information ("He's fearful because he just murdered his wife and he knows you're a mentalist.") then that's simply a limited version of Telepathy and should be purchased that way.

[Stone]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. If all the Detect Emotion gives is a general sense of the person's emotions (frightened' date=' nervous, angry, sad, happy) then I'm OK with it as a Detect. If it's giving detailed information ("He's fearful because he just murdered his wife and he knows you're a mentalist.") then that's simply a limited version of Telepathy and should be purchased that way.[/quote']

 

That is how I planning on using it. The character will be able to tell how someone or a group of people are feeling (ex. she's really upset or everyone in that apartment building is scared), but not why they are feeling that way. Character will also be able to identify people by their individual "emotional patterns" or "emotional fingerprints". This is not an instant process. Like the FH given eariler, the character may be able to distinguish a particular pattern, but to link it to a person will take effort (just like matching normal fingerprints to a person). The mindscan modifers and mental defense would apply to the rolls. Does that make more sense?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

You said it was similar to Mind Scan. Why not use Mind Scan? It's already got rules for detecting over a large area' date=' range, and so forth. More dice increases the chance of success. The problem with building it as a sense is that it ALWAYS works, unless someone has a "Darkness to Emotion Sense" in the area.[/quote']

 

Darkness, Invisibility, image, shapeshift and a few other abilities that affect the detect group would make you immune, throw off the detect or fool it completely. True the detect is an all or nothing so either it works or if the taget has the right thing it doesnt and never will so I think that's balance in it on right.

 

If you have mind scan, telepathy or the like with the cumulative advantage all you need is to be able to affect the target then its only a matter of time before it works anyway. This means that really there's no way to stop it unless you have enough def to be immune to the def ie nothing from the effect gets in.

Besides both build produce totally different sfx and romance to the world based on the function of the mechanic to the tapastry of the world set. In other words all build that get close to a sfx does not produce the actual feel / romance for the character concept do to the mechanical interpretation.

I believe you all have valid reasons why you feel the way you do and thus run it the best way for your world. I only pointing out what I see as far as balance and sfx between the other suggested builds.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

That is how I planning on using it. The character will be able to tell how someone or a group of people are feeling (ex. she's really upset or everyone in that apartment building is scared)' date=' but not why they are feeling that way. Character will also be able to identify people by their individual "emotional patterns" or "emotional fingerprints". This is not an instant process. Like the FH given eariler, the character may be able to distinguish a particular pattern, but to link it to a person will take effort (just like matching normal fingerprints to a person). The mindscan modifers and mental defense would apply to the rolls. Does that make more sense?[/quote']Yeah, that sounds good to me (Not that you actually need my approval).

 

Just remember that just because someone is feeling a certain emotion doesn't mean your character'll know why he is...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

Big, Fat, Dittos.

This came around from the other direction in a how to: Detect Magic thread on the FH forum.

Detects allow you to sense something, but they don't tell you what it is - you need other knowledge for that. FREX: You see a Globbersnatcher. You've never seen one before, and you have never heard of one or had one described to you. You have no idea what it is. You still see it, you just can't do much with the information until you find out stuff about it. The sense power doesn't tell you anything about the Globbersnatcher. You could describe it to someone and they could tell you about it, if they know anything, but the detect alone doesn't allow you to know what it is.

.................

 

There must always be sone voice of dissent, so....

 

First off, you have to bear in mind that telepathy and mind scan ARE senses, albeit specialised ones with their own mechanics.

 

Moreover you can detect an awful lot with a normal sense: take sight: the Globbersnatcher appears to be a quadruped with forward facing eyes and large, sharp teeth. It does not ahve any armour or equipment, and its feet do not appear to be adapted to use any kind of technology anyway. it is probably a carnivore with animal level intelligence. Now all you have is the results of a detect and some conclusions, although they are likely to be accurate. Sight is not built as detect carnivore, but it can be used that way.

 

Also consider normal hearing (or HRRH) which enable you to detect what someone is saying, and understand it. There is very little difference, logically, between that and telepathy or advanced emotion detecting.

 

In game, of course, there is a difference as there are specific powers for tracking and reading minds, and so, rather than a mechanical limitation, to seems that the approach to this one has to be predicated purely on game balance.

 

Let me illustrate this with an example.

 

I want to beuild a power 'detect thoughts'. I define it as:

 

1. A detect that can pick up the electromagnetic variations in brain tissue that enables me to 'see' that nerve electricity, sort of like one of those cunning hospital scanners OR

 

2. Telepathy limited to detetcting but not reading thoughts

 

Now I'd almost certainly build it with the detect, especially if the character was a medic type and was using brain activity to check if someone was alive.

 

Now, over time, the character buys range, and targetting for their thought detection and begins to recognise certain patetrns; when the brain glows like this it means anger, or lust....so they buy discriminatory too.

 

As more time (and XP) pass, analyse is added - the detection has become so subtle and nuanced that the patterns formed int he language centre f the brain can be read and understood, and even the patterns formed int he memory...

 

Not an illogical progression, IMO. At some point you might require the detect to be replaced with Mind Scan and telepathy, but the cost is likely to take a ssignificant hike, and may not be practical in the overall build: moreover, unless they character has an EGO as high as their INT, their perceptive abilities will take a dive...

 

One other approach though, without replacing telepathy, is to play up the limits of the detect thoughts. First off something will block any sense, and you could make one of the 'blockers' mental defence: each point imposing a -1 PER roll. Second, whilst you CAN read deep memory and language, it takes time, even with sense and rapid sense: you have to play the whole thing through, you can't just 'read' the memories wholesale.

 

Now I know Is atrted off by saying that the 'detect emotions' ability was too powerful/useful for the points, but it seesm to me that it is useable, subject to appropriate limitations (not necessarily ones that save you points) agreed between player and GM. You should not use a detect to simply and cheaply replace a mental power, but there si no reason that, given the right circumstances, a detect emotions, or even detect thoughts couldn't do much the same job.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I think my biggest problem with using either Telepathy or Mind Scan for this sort of thing is that they're writen to target individuals. The last time I used a construct like this it was Detect Minds (with Discriminatory to give general emotional state) because what I wanted was for the telepath to have a feel for where people were (for example, in a rescue situation). Mind Scan requires you to already know what you're looking for, and Telepathy requires line-of-sight.

[casualplayer]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I would have to know more about what exactly you want this ability to be capable of. Similar to what Erkenfresh said, this sounds like more than one power, more like an EC: Emotion Sense.

 

It also starts flashing a Stopsign the more it is described. This is a power that would emmasculate some types of storylines similar to the drawbacks of Danger Sense or Clairsentience (two powers that may be encompassed in the construction of this power.)

 

As a GM who once allowed someone to be able to Sense Fear/Phobias and then proceeded to have that player hog the screentime asking what every passerby's deepest, darkest fear was I would be a little hesitant to allow this ability without some fairly common methods for fooling, blunting or obstructing this sense.

 

Think of the synaesthetics of this power and some interesting SFX and ways for the GM to have fun with this sense will come to light. Is it a sight-based sense where a madman could hide behind the pious glow of a busload of nuns? Is it hearing-based and blunted by club noise or passing traffic? Is it taste-based where anger is bitter and hatred tangy? Does it resonate in different areas of the brain with murderous rage bringing on a blinding migraine?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I'm fine with a Power such as this, and I've used and allowed it and similar in the past, for both empathy and telepathy. Consider the differences between what a Detect can and can't do versus Telepathy. Telepathy "detects" several things in great detail (surface thoughts, hidden thoughts, memories and the subconscious) and can even transmit information in this way. A Detect only senses one thing (or a group of things, with each additional group costing additional points). Telepathy is versus a single target, Detect is versus any target, but like any other sense, the more you have to perceive, the more difficult it is to perceive anything.

 

There's a fine line though, and Detects like these would be easy to abuse. Then again, so are Mental Powers to begin with.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

I'm fine with a Power such as this' date=' and I've used and allowed it and similar in the past, for both empathy and telepathy. Consider the differences between what a Detect can and can't do versus Telepathy. Telepathy "detects" several things in great detail (surface thoughts, hidden thoughts, memories and the subconscious) and can even transmit information in this way. A Detect only senses one thing (or a group of things, with each additional group costing additional points). Telepathy is versus a single target, Detect is versus any target, [b']but like any other sense, the more you have to perceive, the more difficult it is to perceive anything.[/b]

 

There's a fine line though, and Detects like these would be easy to abuse. Then again, so are Mental Powers to begin with.

 

 

My emphasis

 

I think this is the point I'd agree with most strongly: if you are allowing a detect to do what telepathy can (and I can see no logical reason other than game balance why it shouldn't) you really need to think through the penalties you would be applying.

 

Telepathy is 'active' - it requires an attack roll so, I would argue, it is actively seeking a memory - rooting through for the relevant bits. A detect (even if defined as 'active') is still simply 'looking', and so to detect a memory from three weeks ago you might well ahve to review a whole day worth of emmories, and you'd probably be doing that in real time.

 

Unless you had a whole day to go through the memories, I'd be inclined to impose perception penalties for:

 

1. How long ago the event was, and

2. How much time you have to review to find the memory (even if you know the time of an event, the 'recording brain' might not have know the time, so you will probably need to review at least an hour's worth of stuff...)

 

This would enable you to detect minds, generally and quickly, and the contents specifically, but only if you have a LOT of time to do it.

 

I do come back to one point though: with ANY sense of an unusual nature, you should define what blocks or interferes with it Whilst mental defence is a good place to start, I'd want more as a GM: maybe electricity interferes with the ability, especially if it is basically detecting brain electrical activity. Then wires in walls could make it hard to sense through them, and even mobile phones might interfere with the ability: they certainly muck about with electrical equipment. As a GM I'd say that was common enought o still make the ability very useful but would also place enough limits on it so that I retained control over the overal utility.

 

Finally detecting minds in my book would probably be a 5 point detect. Human minds I'd let in at the 3 point level.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Emotion Sense - would you allow this or is it munckin?

 

That was how I was reading it ... not "She's mad because her husband blew the rent money on lottery tickets" or "She's scared because a guy in a long trenchcoat has been shadowing her for eight blocks"' date=' which would definitely be Telepathy. I was assuming the power would just say "She's mad" or "She's scared" at the Discriminatory, with 'intensities' at Analyze (irked/annoyed/ticked/enraged/furious, for example).[/quote']

 

This is similar to how I'd run it. The base Detect would be similar in data input to other non targeting, non or semi discriminatory senses, only giving vague impressions related to how well the per roll was made... barely made the roll, "Yeah, it has emotions", made it fairly well "Strong bad vibes...feels kinda sharp... angry or hurt is your best guess"

Discriminatory lets you pick out specfic emotions, where even a poor roll would still get you "Its Pissed" and a good roll gets you "its pissed and yearning and scared"

Analyze... hmmmm... probably lets you connect the dots... I'd have to think abit about how to break apart Analyze Emotion without invalidating normal mental powers. I'm sure its doable, but I'd have to put a bit of skull sweat into the idea to make sure it's fair for the cost.

 

Speaking of which...

This is shaping up as a pretty expensive sense, and with that kinda point investment I'd have no problems letting it be about as effective as a similar costed Mental Power, if less "focussed", if that makes any sense.

As for what blocks it.... How about lots of strong emotions? Like trying to see through bad weather. Trying to pick out one specific terrified mind out of a whole paniced mob could be quite rough.

 

EDIT:

While I was distractedly typing that, a whole lotta good posts got made.