EGO as DEX in Combat Order

[RPMiller]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

I would personally rule that as happening on DEX.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

That's what I would do. So why would Flight with the same F/X get a pass? EDIT: I'm not saying you, RPMiller, would do that. It

s a general audience question.

 

It's not like Lightning Reflexes costs a lot (1 pt per +1) when bought for just one action or maneuver.

[JmOz]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

How would a "Mind over Matter F/X" Telekinesis fit in that isn't bought with BOECV?

 

Because some people like to look at the difference in utility.

 

BOECV is for attack powers, at a hefty +1 advantage, because it allows a power to be targeted vs ECV instead of DCV, DCV usualy being quite a bit higher (In my experience ECV is usualy around 3-5, while DCV will usualy be around 8-12). You do not get this major advantage when used on a movemet or defence power.

 

Or do you really think that being able to move on your ECV is worthy of a +1 advantage

 

I would also like to quote a passage from the rules book, but do not have the time right now (page refrences is for 5th edition, not revised)

 

But the gist of it is two points, point 1: In the description of power catagory the book says you can change the catagory based on F/X at a +0 cost (page 72, second paragraph, under changing catagories, right below the example)

 

Somewhere it says mental powers can be used on the Ego for inititive (can't find it right now, in a hurry)

 

if a character changes his flight per the first rule to being mental, then by rights he should be able to use the second rule as it is now a mental power.

 

Realise the above is a major GM approval type of thing, but it is in the book as an option.

[archermoo]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

How would a "Mind over Matter F/X" Telekinesis fit in that isn't bought with BOECV?

 

I would probably rule it as going on EGO, but that would depend on specifics. And for that matter I would let Mental based flight, teleport, etc. go off on EGO as well.

[RPMiller]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Well that would certainly resolve the move then attack conundrum to be sure, and would probably lead to all mentalist characters getting a movement power based on ego. Interesting...

[archermoo]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Well that would certainly resolve the move then attack conundrum to be sure' date=' and would probably lead to all mentalist characters getting a movement power based on ego. Interesting...[/quote']

 

Actually, it didn't lead to anything of the sort. If someone isn't going to buy up their Dex or get lightning reflexes to be able to physically effectively on their Ego because it doesn't make sense for the character, I don't see them as being likely to buy flight so that they have a movement power that they can use on their Ego if that isn't in character concept either.

[RPMiller]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Just thinking out loud.

[archermoo]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

Cool. Just responding out loud.

[Blue]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

How would a "Mind over Matter F/X" Telekinesis fit in that isn't bought with BOECV?

I would have to have them use it on DEX rather than EGO. If they're doing an attack and a move in my game, and the atack is an actual EGO based attack and the movement has ego SFX, I let them do the whole move on EGO. Anything else would be on DEX.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Actually' date=' it didn't lead to anything of the sort. If someone isn't going to buy up their Dex or get lightning reflexes to be able to physically effectively on their Ego because it doesn't make sense for the character, I don't see them as being likely to buy flight so that they have a movement power that they can use on their Ego if that isn't in character concept either.[/quote']

 

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

 

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

 

It opens up a loophole IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

 

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

 

It opens up a loophole IMO.

 

 

It's only a problem to the extent you make it a problem. A character whose abilities are entirely based on DEX moves entirely on DEX, and pays 2 points to buy +1 DEX (it's 2 points, not 3, since no one ever rounds down their Speed - anyone who did would buy DEX no figured for 2 points anyway). A character whose abilities are entirely based on EGO moves entirely on EGO, and pays 2 points to buy +1 EGO. It's the character with a mixed bag of abilities who is unfairly penalized, being forced to buy +1 DEX and EGO to get the same effect, costing 4 points.

 

Maybe all characters should move on the greater of their DEX or EGO (physical and mental reaction time both being considered), or perhaps the average of the two, That munchkin martial artist with 38 DEX and 10 EGO (because he has no mental powers) wouldn't be able to exploit the "loophope" that permits him to point shave by not buying any EGO then!

[Blue]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

 

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

 

It opens up a loophole IMO.

If your players would do that, you need new ones!

[tesuji]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

If your movement and your reaction speed or initiative are all based on EGO, not Dexterity, shouldn't then your DCV be figured off of EGO instead of Dexterity.

 

Wouldn't the TK-Ladd mentioned above need to have his DCV based off EGO/3?

 

Ego rolls for Dive for cover?

 

Agility skills based off EGO?

 

etc...

[tesuji]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

It's only a problem to the extent you make it a problem. A character whose abilities are entirely based on DEX moves entirely on DEX, and pays 2 points to buy +1 DEX (it's 2 points, not 3, since no one ever rounds down their Speed - anyone who did would buy DEX no figured for 2 points anyway). A character whose abilities are entirely based on EGO moves entirely on EGO, and pays 2 points to buy +1 EGO. It's the character with a mixed bag of abilities who is unfairly penalized, being forced to buy +1 DEX and EGO to get the same effect, costing 4 points.

 

There is an obvious flaw in this reasoning.

 

Right now with what they both do, ego and dex cost the same. But they do different things.

If you take "when do i move" from Dex and move it to EGO, you have lessened the value of dex and raised the value of EGO.

 

Take a similar line of reasoning and use INT and PRE.

Both cost 1 cp each.

if i decide as my house rule "smart people are harder to impress" and so i decide to allow INt to be used against presence attacks, then i can "justify it" by pointing out that the guy with 23 int for +13 cp is just as resistant as the guy with Pre 23 for the same cost.

 

but what i have really just done is made high int better.

 

Now, if one thinks "INT is too expensive compared to PRE" this is likely a ood idea. But if one thinks they were balanced before... not so good.

 

or put another way, Just because Int and str cost the same, doesn't mean ts Ok for me to have strength determine my per rolls or skill bonuses for computers.

 

All that said, I personally dont see a problem with having a mentalist who uses mental powers for his movement, and in having these scores reflect his ego instead of his dex, but IMo the way to represent this is by buying the traits with the right SFX.

 

If i have Ego 23 and Dex 14 and I want to have CV based off my "ego score" i buy either Cv levels or even buy "more dex" with SFX of "ego based reactions.

 

if i want my initiative order for all things including moves to reflect my ego 23 not my dex 13, i buy lightning reflexes with the appropriate SFX.

 

the inconsistency in the rules, IMO, comes from approaching the "when do i go" with the "use ego for init for free for mental powers." This leads, IMO, to very honest and worthy questions of "what else can i get ego based for free?" or put another way "how many other functions of dexterity can i swipe and add to EGO for free?"

 

had the sentence under Mental combat been to use mental powers on your ego, not your dex, buy lightning reflexes as mental rflexes" this wouldn't be a question or series of questions.

 

ymmv...

[archermoo]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Actually, I see it in an opposite way. By allowing just an F/X of "Mental Power" to circumnavigate the "DEX problem", that makes it *more* likely that they will define whatever movement they have in that way.

 

Mentalist/TK Character: "I'm actually a quadriplegic, but I TK my body to do what I want it to do. That makes my Running, Swimming, and Leaping all 'mental' in terms of when I can use them!"

 

It opens up a loophole IMO.

 

I am aware that it opens up a "loophole". The whole system has a bunch of loopholes. Yes, it is possible to build broken, munchkiney characters. My response to them as a ref? No.

 

As I said before, I have been playing this way for at least 15 years and have never had a problem with it.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

To be honest, I haven't had a problem with it either in the games I've been in. I tend to stay far, far away from the games where stuff like that gallops rampantly. I'm just thinking "worst-case scenario".

[archermoo]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

To be honest' date=' I haven't had a problem with it either in the games I've been in. I tend to stay far, far away from the games where stuff like that gallops rampantly. I'm just thinking "worst-case scenario".[/quote']

 

Worst case scenario with just about anything in Hero is "yes, it can be munchkined". As a ref I would never let someone play a character that I hadn't vetted first. Not even someone I trusted. And I certainly don't have any interest in gaming with someone who is just interested in seeing how they can game around the "loopholes".

 

Hero reminds me of one of my favourite quotes about Unix:

 

Yes, Unix lets users do stupid thing. If it stopped them from doing stupid things, it would stop them from doing the really clever things too.

[Vondy]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

I allow mentalists to use EGO in Lieu of DEX for initiative for mental powers only. I've never found it unbalancing.

[SteveZilla]

Re: EGO as DEX in Combat Order

 

Hero reminds me of one of my favourite quotes about Unix:

 

Yes, Unix lets users do stupid thing. If it stopped them from doing stupid things, it would stop them from doing the really clever things too.

 

I think that's very likely true (I only use UNIX/AIX at work, and I'm not an admin, so my clever stuff is limited). However, I did recently teach myself how to write an awk script. I wrote a pair that are about 3000 lines of code, combined.

 

So I guess that makes the Hero System GM kinda like the UNIX System's Admin?