What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

[Kevin Schultz]

This question came up in my "They Also Serve" mini-campaign. the PC's are the support personell for a hero, and they have access to pretty much any firearm that's legal for a civilian to own. What would be the most appropriate thing for them to have, when they have to reconfigure themselves as an extraction team? One character is ex-special forces, so he is fairly knowledgeable about guns.

 

In terms of game mechanics, I'm guessing some form of semi-automatic shotgun (I thought Kalashikov was marketing one of those); the stun multiplier will ensure that the damage will actually be able to get through all but the most resistant bricks.

 

But in terms of style, I was wondering what ELSE could be put together. A souped-up AR-15? One of those Desert Eagles with an extended clip, foregrip, and collapsable stock (just how useful are those things, anyway?)

[Teflon Billy]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

This question came up in my "They Also Serve" mini-campaign. the PC's are the support personell for a hero, and they have access to pretty much any firearm that's legal for a civilian to own. What would be the most appropriate thing for them to have, when they have to reconfigure themselves as an extraction team? One character is ex-special forces, so he is fairly knowledgeable about guns.

 

In terms of game mechanics, I'm guessing some form of semi-automatic shotgun (I thought Kalashikov was marketing one of those); the stun multiplier will ensure that the damage will actually be able to get through all but the most resistant bricks.

 

But in terms of style, I was wondering what ELSE could be put together. A souped-up AR-15? One of those Desert Eagles with an extended clip, foregrip, and collapsable stock (just how useful are those things, anyway?)

Legally, you should be able to get any small arm as a civilian (even automatic weapons).

 

The difficulty in getting the licensing is the issue, and that varies from state to state.

 

TB

[SSgt Baloo]

Seriously?

 

What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Twenty inches?

 

Sorry. I just can't resist a good straight line.

 

The National Rifle Association (NRA) has a website detailing many regional gun laws.

[Barton]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

IMHO, the AR-15 is just a M-16 without the full auto setting. This is basically an assult rifle. I would have your characters look into M-4 semi-auotmatics. The M-4 is a carbine (short rifle) version of the M-16. Popular in Iraq due to being able to easily fit in cars/humvees. Semi-automatic only versions of the M-4 I think are for sale (not sure on that).

[Vondy]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

In July I'll be getting a license for an M-4.

 

Of course, I live in another country.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

IMHO' date=' the AR-15 is just a M-16 without the full auto setting. This is basically an assult rifle. I would have your characters look into M-4 semi-auotmatics. The M-4 is a carbine (short rifle) version of the M-16. Popular in Iraq due to being able to easily fit in cars/humvees. Semi-automatic only versions of the M-4 I think are for sale (not sure on that).[/quote']

 

Yep - just checked the Colt website; both the AR-15 (EDIT - whoops, they're calling it an HBar) and the semiautomatic version of the M-4 are available. Thanks for the help!

[Barton]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

In July I'll be getting a license for an M-4.

 

Of course, I live in another country.

 

You are so lucky, I assume you will get the full auto version...

I own a reproduction Thompson sub-machine gun [semi-auto only] I would love to get a chance to fire a real Thompson on full automatic.

[Barton]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Yep - just checked the Colt website; both the AR-15 (EDIT - whoops' date=' they're calling it an HBar) and the semiautomatic version of the M-4 are available. Thanks for the help![/quote']

 

M-4 is nice for built up areas, very portable. Remember, even a semi-automatic can fire a lot of lead quickly. You can fire as quickly as you can pull the trigger.

The Thompson 1927 can be fired with out the wooden stock, making it a very short weapon, very easily concealed.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

You are so lucky, I assume you will get the full auto version...

I own a reproduction Thompson sub-machine gun [semi-auto only] I would love to get a chance to fire a real Thompson on full automatic.

 

Sweet! I always wanted one o' dem (the semiauto version). How long is the barrel on that, 21 inches? Your semiauto should be just fine for hunting the "deadly" Can-us Alumunatus.

 

When I lived in New Mexico, I had a friend who was the gunsmith at the local gun shop. He had the Federal licence required for private ownership of fully automatic weapons. He owned an older Thompson SMG, the one with the bimetal blowback-retarding mechanism (Blish Block). One day, he'd just finished rebuilding it and let me squeeze off 6 rounds, full auto, into a sand-filled can. What a piece of machinery! He also owned a black powder signalling cannon and built a Gatling gun from plans to go with a Spanish/American war tripod smeone gave him. It was a blast just to talk tech with this guy.

[Vondy]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

You are so lucky, I assume you will get the full auto version...

I own a reproduction Thompson sub-machine gun [semi-auto only] I would love to get a chance to fire a real Thompson on full automatic.

 

Yes, it will be fully auto. I'm probably going the get the SOPMOD kit (sans the grenade launcher and only 1 scope) to go with it, but may have to wait a few months between the two. One of the men in my gush (kind of like a town home) has his father's Thompson 1927 from the War of Independence. He refurbished it last year.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Generally speaking, civilians are not allowed to have extended clips, nor can they own fully automatic weapons. I've fired a MAC-11 on semi-auto, and the individual who owned it was military and I believed he had the capability of getting it set to automatic.

 

I also don't think that we would want to fire an illegally modified automatic weapon in the middle of an NRA range.

[Sundog]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Generally speaking' date=' civilians are not allowed to have extended clips, nor can they own fully automatic weapons. I've fired a MAC-11 on semi-auto, and the individual who owned it was military and I [i']believed[/i] he had the capability of getting it set to automatic.

 

I also don't think that we would want to fire an illegally modified automatic weapon in the middle of an NRA range.

 

Actually, the "extended clips" ban ended with the "Assault Weapons Ban", I believe. Congress let that whole awful mess slide into obscurity a while back when they refused to extend it.

[Remjin]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

I'm going to go ahead and avoid the "assault weapons ban" rant except for this: the assault weapons ban only banned certain cosmetic features deemed "assault-style" and limited NEW magazine production sizes to 10 rounds. So, without going into the rant, let me continue on to the actual question...

 

Someone already covered some of the legality issues... and basically, if I remember right from when I looked into it, getting a fully automatic weapon equates to getting a Class 3 stamp. Certain other types of weapons require lesser approvals, including things considered AOW (any other weapon) and various other things. There are a lot of sources on the net, so I won't bother to go too far into it. But, barring that, your limitations are pretty basic as a regular civilian.

 

It has to be semi-automatic. Rifles have to have at least a 16" barrel, shotguns an 18" barrel. Barrel length is determined whether the tube is rifled or not, but attachments must be permanent. Thus, a 14.5" M-4 with a 1.5" flash suppressor on the end is legal. A 14.5" barrel itself is not. That's about it. No fully automatic stuff... outside of that, there are certain limitations but not a lot that should bother you. Getting a sound suppressor is touch and go, certain models are legal and others are not. Worse, very few know the ins and outs of it... including the cops, who will take your butt in and let the judge sort it out. And, as someone else mentioned, it varies a lot from state to state. In essence, its a legal nightmare to negotiate if you travel, and a hassle if you don't.

 

So for your characters... any form of AR (armalite is their originator, btw, who sold it to Colt, who produced it for the military. Bit of trivia for ya. =) ), AK, FN-FAL, AUG, or other rifle is permitted s'long as it's the semi-automatic version. Those are all military based designs. For those that are fans of the G-38, the H&K SL-8 is a civilian version of it, though much changed in aesthetics. Personally, I like the SL-8 and the civilian version of the UMP-45, too... I forget its designation. All those letter-number combos confuse me. =)

 

You can get all the various accessories, including night vision, IR light or laser, regular light/laser, pods, dot sights, and doo-hickeys that people love to clamp onto their rifles these days. Most of it is useless to us civilians that don't spend a lot of time in night time operations scenarios, but hey... if you like it, go for it.

 

If you're going for the whole "outfit 'em like an ops team" theme, the AR and MP-5 are good solid contendors with lots of TV/Movie time to get excited about them. =) Just keep in mind that weapons from Ruger, H&K, Beretta, and FN Herstal are common. Variations on theme coming from S&W, Walther, and plenty of others. Look around on all the "tactical" sights out there, great resource for games on various gear. i wouldn't take them too seriously, though, some of them are run by nutbags or people who like to profit off of nutbags. =)

 

I'm personally a fan of THIS rifle:

 

A custom AK conversion combining some of the best features of the AK and the AR. =) Attachments to taste.

[Mike Dean]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

The major question is, do these characters have some kind of state or federally licensed law enforcement franchise? If the hero they support is an illegal vigilante they might prefer black market weapons anyway...harder to trace without the government paper trail. If the hero is legit he's very likely a government employee, as are the support characters. If that's the case you can arm them pretty much as you see fit. If they're the equivalent of a SWAT team, say, they could have fully automatic weapons, sniper rifles, tear gas, stun grenades, the whole nine yards...all on Uncle Sam's dime.

 

For the record, if I had a team of normals trying to take down bricks I'd only use shotguns as a last resort; instead, load up the agents with the largest caliber sniper rifles they can get and pop the heavy hitters from a safe distance. The damage is as good or better, the +1 stun mult is still there, there's no reduced penetration to worry about, and you don't have to get in the brick's face.

 

Mike

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

The major question is' date=' do these characters have some kind of state or federally licensed law enforcement franchise?[/quote']

 

Heya - thanks for the response!

 

The group in question are the informal 'support team' for a civilian vigilante; the game-world is such that while there are laws on the book allowing for such individuals to fight crime inasmuch as the civil authorities can't handle it (or rather a lack of laws disallowing it, and several important Supreme Court rulings to support that interpretation), getting official sanction is something of a lengthy process.

 

It's also a chicken-and-egg conundrum, as in order to get sanction you need experience, but to get experience you (technically) need sanction. The superhero in question is in the process of getting her law degree, which is one of the official requirements (ie "an accredited law degree or 2+ years experience in criminal justice"). Also, she just turned 18, and is a freshman in college, so she hasn't really had time to get very far in the process.

 

Currently one of the PC's has federal law enforcement powers, so he's the one that actually arrests people after she beats them up. He's also the one who carries the real assualt rifle; it's through his contacts that the rest of the 'team' is getting equipped.

 

The gearing-up in question is in anticipation of breaking into villian's base and cleaning it out; the villian has already been captured, so it's all really to make sure he doesn't have a giant robot or something in there. In grand tradition for our group, they're overplanning and bringing way too much firepower for what they need to do.

 

Also note that they're really not a combat-ready bunch; one is a mid-40's lawyer, another is her PR person, and another is her physician. They're being handed out rifles mainly because the players wanted some guns, not because it's a good idea to arm them. They managed to snag a couple of other NPC's from the hero's fanclub (a trio of mechanics); some of them have gone hunting, so they're familiar with rifles. But that's pretty much it.

 

This is either comedy or tragedy waiting to happen; I'm gonna try to hit the comic side of things.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

This is either comedy or tragedy waiting to happen; I'm gonna try to hit the comic side of things.

 

It sounds like a glorious trainwreck no matter the outcome!

[Mike Dean]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Gotcha. So basically these folks are operating in a sort of legal vacuum where they can't not enter an unsecured crime scene so long as it's in support of the superhero. In that case shotguns might be a good idea after all. For civilians pump shotguns might be a better idea than semi-autos since they're more reliable (unless you prefer not to use the weapon malfunction chart). Also, pump shotguns are more dramatic; they look and sound cool when you work the action.

 

Mike

[Vondy]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Something else to consider is that a Class 3 Federal Weapons permit requires you to waive your 4th amendment rights for the location you specify for the weapon's storage. You have to give the BATF the right to walk in and conduct an inspection of your weapons and the premises in which they are to be stored 24/7 to get the permit. You must also agree to produce the weapon for inspection on demand.

[Remjin]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Something else to consider is that a Class 3 Federal Weapons permit requires you to waive your 4th amendment rights for the location you specify for the weapon's storage. You have to give the BATF the right to walk in and conduct an inspection of your weapons and the premises in which they are to be stored 24/7 to get the permit. You must also agree to produce the weapon for inspection on demand.

 

Wow, I had never heard that. Shame on those websites not informing me of this part! That's pretty serious. =)

 

Its always interesting, the legalities of it all... and how the people trying to ban "assault rifles" still don't realize that actually automatic weapons have been banned since the early 1900s... (I can't remember the exact year anymore).

 

Y'know, I'd actually love to get a couple, but my state doesn't allow it, and the prices are pretty ridiculous at this point. A single weapon can cost as much as a car or more, the "cheap" ones being around $10,000 =/

 

Ah, to have Israel's mindset on such things would be nice... though, not the accompanying much higher risk of terrorists...

[gewing]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

I'm going to go ahead and avoid the "assault weapons ban" rant except for this: the assault weapons ban only banned certain cosmetic features deemed "assault-style" and limited NEW magazine production sizes to 10 rounds. So, without going into the rant, let me continue on to the actual question...

 

Someone already covered some of the legality issues... and basically, if I remember right from when I looked into it, getting a fully automatic weapon equates to getting a Class 3 stamp. Certain other types of weapons require lesser approvals, including things considered AOW (any other weapon) and various other things. There are a lot of sources on the net, so I won't bother to go too far into it. But, barring that, your limitations are pretty basic as a regular civilian.

 

It has to be semi-automatic. Rifles have to have at least a 16" barrel, shotguns an 18" barrel. Barrel length is determined whether the tube is rifled or not, but attachments must be permanent. Thus, a 14.5" M-4 with a 1.5" flash suppressor on the end is legal. A 14.5" barrel itself is not. That's about it. No fully automatic stuff... outside of that, there are certain limitations but not a lot that should bother you. Getting a sound suppressor is touch and go, certain models are legal and others are not. Worse, very few know the ins and outs of it... including the cops, who will take your butt in and let the judge sort it out. And, as someone else mentioned, it varies a lot from state to state. In essence, its a legal nightmare to negotiate if you travel, and a hassle if you don't.

 

So for your characters... any form of AR (armalite is their originator, btw, who sold it to Colt, who produced it for the military. Bit of trivia for ya. =) ), AK, FN-FAL, AUG, or other rifle is permitted s'long as it's the semi-automatic version. Those are all military based designs. For those that are fans of the G-38, the H&K SL-8 is a civilian version of it, though much changed in aesthetics. Personally, I like the SL-8 and the civilian version of the UMP-45, too... I forget its designation. All those letter-number combos confuse me. =)

 

You can get all the various accessories, including night vision, IR light or laser, regular light/laser, pods, dot sights, and doo-hickeys that people love to clamp onto their rifles these days. Most of it is useless to us civilians that don't spend a lot of time in night time operations scenarios, but hey... if you like it, go for it.

 

If you're going for the whole "outfit 'em like an ops team" theme, the AR and MP-5 are good solid contendors with lots of TV/Movie time to get excited about them. =) Just keep in mind that weapons from Ruger, H&K, Beretta, and FN Herstal are common. Variations on theme coming from S&W, Walther, and plenty of others. Look around on all the "tactical" sights out there, great resource for games on various gear. i wouldn't take them too seriously, though, some of them are run by nutbags or people who like to profit off of nutbags. =)

 

I'm personally a fan of THIS rifle:

 

A custom AK conversion combining some of the best features of the AK and the AR. =) Attachments to taste.

 

 

the previous post about regional laws at the NRA website was a good source.

 

Here in Washington, it is legal to own a suppressor. If you fire a weapon with one mounted though...

It is illegal to possess a fully automatic weapon, even with a Federal Tax stamp.

 

just little tidbits.

 

The rifle I am most interested in currently is this one.

 

http://www.kel-tec.com/images/downloads/RFB_Flyer_SHOT_2007_web.pdf

 

 

for a short video link of the 18" barreled CARBINE version, which is 26" OVERALL!

 

http://www.kel-tec.com/videos/rfbteaser.wmv

 

this is in full 7.62x51mm Nato. should be legal just about anywhere except Kalifornia and Massachusetts.

[Remjin]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

the previous post about regional laws at the NRA website was a good source.

 

Here in Washington, it is legal to own a suppressor. If you fire a weapon with one mounted though...

It is illegal to possess a fully automatic weapon, even with a Federal Tax stamp.

 

just little tidbits.

 

The rifle I am most interested in currently is this one.

 

http://www.kel-tec.com/images/downloads/RFB_Flyer_SHOT_2007_web.pdf

 

 

for a short video link of the 18" barreled CARBINE version, which is 26" OVERALL!

 

http://www.kel-tec.com/videos/rfbteaser.wmv

 

this is in full 7.62x51mm Nato. should be legal just about anywhere except Kalifornia and Massachusetts.

 

Ewwww... I don't like it. =( I don't like pull-pups in any case, and that wierd top-eject channel is just begging for a blockage to cause problems. Interesting idea, though, and kudos for the 7.62 x 51mm (same as the american .308 isn't it?) round. I also like that they didn't put some big burly guy in the video to try and show how light the recoil is. =) Not a fan of Kel-tec as a whole, honestly. Interesting, though.

 

Of course, I was liking the AR in a .460 SOCOM or .500 beowulf and such at one point. I'm starting to fall into the .223 camp or pistol-caliber carbine idea (USC-45!!! hehe) as my primary concern is zombies and home defense rather than any kind of assault on anything. hehe.

[Toadmaster]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Wow, I had never heard that. Shame on those websites not informing me of this part! That's pretty serious. =)

 

Its always interesting, the legalities of it all... and how the people trying to ban "assault rifles" still don't realize that actually automatic weapons have been banned since the early 1900s... (I can't remember the exact year anymore).

 

Y'know, I'd actually love to get a couple, but my state doesn't allow it, and the prices are pretty ridiculous at this point. A single weapon can cost as much as a car or more, the "cheap" ones being around $10,000 =/

 

Ah, to have Israel's mindset on such things would be nice... though, not the accompanying much higher risk of terrorists...

 

 

Up until the 1930's you could buy Thompsons, BARs and sawed off shotguns at SEARS. I want to say 1933 was when the law was passed making weapons with a barrel under 16", automatic weapons etc illegal without a special license. Another law in 1968 further restricted weapons and how they may be sold, 1986 brought us the fabulous law "banning" the import of auto weapons, despite the fact a legally owned autoweapons had never been used in a crime. The 1986 law is what drove the prices up, since the definition of gun was modified to include many of the internal parts. Of course the 1994 law was targeted at cosmetics and detachable magazines. In its usual wisdom the peoples democractic republic of california chose to extend it here.

 

but Nevada is only a short trip away

[Remjin]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

Up until the 1930's you could buy Thompsons, BARs and sawed off shotguns at SEARS. I want to say 1933 was when the law was passed making weapons with a barrel under 16", automatic weapons etc illegal without a special license. Another law in 1968 further restricted weapons and how they may be sold, 1986 brought us the fabulous law "banning" the import of auto weapons, despite the fact a legally owned autoweapons had never been used in a crime. The 1986 law is what drove the prices up, since the definition of gun was modified to include many of the internal parts. Of course the 1994 law was targeted at cosmetics and detachable magazines. In its usual wisdom the peoples democractic republic of california chose to extend it here.

 

but Nevada is only a short trip away

 

...I'm going to stick with not going into my rant about the gun-grabbers and their idiocracy... it'll just get ugly.

 

But, I would totally drool on the idea of owning a BAR.. I think those are just great. If I could get a semi-auto one in military trim that would be great. The new civilian versions just look weird and don't work the same. =/

[gewing]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

...I'm going to stick with not going into my rant about the gun-grabbers and their idiocracy... it'll just get ugly.

 

But, I would totally drool on the idea of owning a BAR.. I think those are just great. If I could get a semi-auto one in military trim that would be great. The new civilian versions just look weird and don't work the same. =/

 

 

 

IIRC there are companies making semi auto repros, but $5k each...

 

I think there might have been a swedish BAR in 6.5x55mm. that would be a sweet shooter.

 

The first MAG58 was designed for the Swedes iirc by turning a BAR upside down and fitting a belt feed, apparently... in 6.5x55mm.

[Remjin]

Re: What's the closest you can get to a legal assualt rifle?

 

IIRC there are companies making semi auto repros, but $5k each...

 

I think there might have been a swedish BAR in 6.5x55mm. that would be a sweet shooter.

 

The first MAG58 was designed for the Swedes iirc by turning a BAR upside down and fitting a belt feed, apparently... in 6.5x55mm.

 

yeah, I saw some BARs around in the original trim... $5k...

 

Hmmm... 6.5x55mm... I want to get something in a pretty common caliber. Having dealt with odd calibers before, I just don't like the hassle or the cost. I like .223, .308, and .30-06 just fine and they often have bulk sales of those. =) Of course, getting a Barrett semi-auto would be fun, if even more expensive than the BAR... *sigh* Stupid lotto... hehe.