Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

[Lethosos]

I've recently been putting some efforts into my Changing Breeds conversion project via HeroDesigner2, and one power is tripping me up. Specifically, "Swallow's Return", which allows a were-raven to mentally return to "home", aka on autopilot. (And given the definition of "home"... )

 

Now, technically, you can't make a Mind Control with the "Self Only" limit, and Teleport is nuts due to the disparity of travel times between two different birds... so how would you do it, then? (Credit will be given where apropos.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

I've recently been putting some efforts into my Changing Breeds conversion project via HeroDesigner2, and one power is tripping me up. Specifically, "Swallow's Return", which allows a were-raven to mentally return to "home", aka on autopilot. (And given the definition of "home"... )

 

Now, technically, you can't make a Mind Control with the "Self Only" limit, and Teleport is nuts due to the disparity of travel times between two different birds... so how would you do it, then? (Credit will be given where apropos.)

 

Detect Home? Bump of Direction, only to find 'home'?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

I've recently been putting some efforts into my Changing Breeds conversion project via HeroDesigner2, and one power is tripping me up. Specifically, "Swallow's Return", which allows a were-raven to mentally return to "home", aka on autopilot. (And given the definition of "home"... )

 

Now, technically, you can't make a Mind Control with the "Self Only" limit, and Teleport is nuts due to the disparity of travel times between two different birds... so how would you do it, then? (Credit will be given where apropos.)

Not being familiar with the original source material I'm only guessing, but...

 

Is this something the were-raven can do after being unconscious, or just something he decides to do and always succeeds in doing kinda like a homing pidgin? The first I'd write up as a Computer that operates the character's body and has the appropriate Skills and Program to find home and navigate there. The character would still be at 0 DCV if actually unconscious though. The second could easily be a Detect Home as CC suggests.

 

Of course, if this is an action triggered by some outside stimulus that causes the were-raven to suddenly have a strong desire to return home, you can just put it in as a Susceptibility with the effect being Mind Control instead of damage.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Of course' date=' if this is an action triggered by some outside stimulus that causes the were-raven to suddenly have a strong desire to return home, you can just put it in as a Susceptibility with the effect being Mind Control instead of damage.[/quote']

 

I'd be more likely to do this as a Psych Lim ... 3d6 of Mind Control isn't going to succeed often.

 

It could actually, if you're willing to stretch things, be bought as Teleportation, with Extra Time (a lot of it) and Must Cross Intervening Space. A mind-control power 'Go Where You're Told' in the USPD is bought in such a fashion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

I'd be more likely to do this as a Psych Lim ... 3d6 of Mind Control isn't going to succeed often.

 

It could actually, if you're willing to stretch things, be bought as Teleportation, with Extra Time (a lot of it) and Must Cross Intervening Space. A mind-control power 'Go Where You're Told' in the USPD is bought in such a fashion.

 

I was thinking the Mind Control of the Susc would be Cumulative by default with no maximum. Eventually, you'd have to obey it. The only question would be if you can withstand it long enough to get whatever needs to get done, done.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

I was thinking the Mind Control of the Susc would be Cumulative by default with no maximum. Eventually' date=' you'd have to obey it. The only question would be if you can withstand it long enough to get whatever needs to get done, done.[/quote']

 

True, hadn't considered that.

[Lethosos]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

To clarify it a bit, it's a power that the raven can trigger when he feels like it--usually when he's dead tired or too badly injured. And the do have natural regeneration like all were-breeds, so it's a matter of being able to trigger it likw a regular power.

 

For the record it's from the Corax breed book for Werewolf: The Apocolypse. (And before you point me to Surbrook's junk, I don't like his method of interpeting the material. That's why I'm doing my own conversion.)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

To clarify it a bit, it's a power that the raven can trigger when he feels like it--usually when he's dead tired or too badly injured. And the do have natural regeneration like all were-breeds, so it's a matter of being able to trigger it likw a regular power.

 

For the record it's from the Corax breed book for Werewolf: The Apocolypse. (And before you point me to Surbrook's junk, I don't like his method of interpeting the material. That's why I'm doing my own conversion.)

 

I'm not about to steal credit -- CC beat me to it. The best way to do this would be:

 

14 Take the Long Way Home: Teleportation 20", x128 Noncombat, rapid Noncombat movement (+1/4) (87 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3 1/4), Can Only Teleport To Home (-1), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4)This is a straightforward version; I just sort of stabbed at the total time & distance, by all means adjust it as you see fit (Megascale if you like, whatever). But that's the gist as I understand it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

To clarify it a bit, it's a power that the raven can trigger when he feels like it--usually when he's dead tired or too badly injured. And the do have natural regeneration like all were-breeds, so it's a matter of being able to trigger it likw a regular power.

 

For the record it's from the Corax breed book for Werewolf: The Apocolypse. (And before you point me to Surbrook's junk, I don't like his method of interpeting the material. That's why I'm doing my own conversion.)

 

Okay, then I definitely see this as a Computer which functions as an autopilot for the were-raven's body. Buy it the same way you would a Computer autopilot for a Vehicle, and it kinda operates the same way. It can't be used to give the character free actions using the Computer's Phases; only one can operate the body at a time.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

A few ways to do this.

 

This character has a similar effect bought as a triggered must move thru space T-Port:

 

Gauntlet

 

However, I would approach this by reasoning from effect. The effect is the character is incapacitated but is able to fly and navigate.

 

 

The most close way to do this in the HERO System is via an AI, normally attached to a vehicle, but a GM could allow the character to use themselves as the vehicle instead.

 

As a side note, assuming the GM allowed the AI autopilot "piloting" the character's unconscious body, the character's flight would need to be persistent.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

The problem I see with a Computer/AI solution is that while it can (I think) control the character when he's (?) unconscious, it's still the character's body that is doing the transporting (i.e., spending END). No END for movement powers, no movement regardless of who's in the pilot's seat. If this is actually a desired effect/mechanic and not a problem, then nevermind.

 

If the compouter/AI can take control of the character's body in his stead, then there is no need for the movement power to be made Peristent, the same as any movement power in a vehicle or automaton.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

The problem I see with a Computer/AI solution is that while it can (I think) control the character when he's (?) unconscious, it's still the character's body that is doing the transporting (i.e., spending END). No END for movement powers, no movement regardless of who's in the pilot's seat. If this is actually a desired effect/mechanic and not a problem, then nevermind.

 

If the compouter/AI can take control of the character's body in his stead, then there is no need for the movement power to be made Peristent, the same as any movement power in a vehicle or automaton.

 

The way I'm interpreting Lethosos's description is that the were-raven must be conscious, but not interested in paying attention. If he's unconscious, he's not able to put himself on "autopilot" at all. So long as he's got the END (if necessary) to fuel the movement he's fine. Though if he wants to get get really creative, buy the Flight with Uses END & END Reserver Interchangably (+1/4) plus an END Reserve that only the AI can use the fuel it (worth a -1/2 on the END Reserve I suppose).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Teleport covers this, without all the messy inbetween. What we're talking about is the ability to get home unimpeded. If you want, slap on a Trigger -- it wouldn't be the first time someone used a power as an escape clause because they had a plan of exit. That's all this is.

 

Teleport on a Trigger to Go Home. That, or I'm really missing something here.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Teleport covers this, without all the messy inbetween. What we're talking about is the ability to get home unimpeded. If you want, slap on a Trigger -- it wouldn't be the first time someone used a power as an escape clause because they had a plan of exit. That's all this is.

 

Teleport on a Trigger to Go Home. That, or I'm really missing something here.

The trouble with Teleport is that it's instant. If you put Extra Time on it, you're stuck at your starting location until it goes off. If you say there's a SFX that such time is taken up by his actually moving, you might as well move him (and then no worry about how far away home is, be it across the street or across the country).

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

No, not exactly. Using the source material of Dark Champions as my example:

 

I'll be There In Five Minutes on page 143 uses the same mechanic, except that he had the foresight to use Megascale (which is easy enough). However, it's modeled as Extra Time to "get across town."

 

For reference: 5ER p.290: "A power with this limitation takes longer to activate and/or use." (emphasis mine). Reasoning from effect, it simply puts you "in limbo" until such time as the power completes. Further, any power that has Extra Time can be interrupted, by rule (for example, in I'll Be There in Five Minutes, the driver can be interrupted if the intervening space is flat-out uncrossable).

 

Teleport becomes the SFX of simply crossing all that distance. Extra Time is flight time, and of course, "must cross intervening space" means that he's "real" and tangible for the duration of the flight. You might not want to build it this way, but it's 100% correct & legal.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

But you still have time issues. Should it always take X minutes to get home regardless of how far away home is? I can understand the Dark Champions Power because it's genre appropriate (can get anywhere in town in 5 minutes), but I'm not it is for "fly home while not paying attention".

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Absolutely yes, if for no other reason that it's easiest to build that way, but you could always build in a variable limitation (Extra time, time varies based on distance, -1/2). We can sit here and debate it if you like, but at the end of the day, other than fickling over the time (which isn't really the important element of the power) the power itself is most reasonably built as Teleport/Trigger.

 

Here:

 

Custom Limitation, Extra Time, User moves in Real Time (GM may select the appropriate amount of time required to travel distance at time of use, -1).

 

Voila.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

I was going to propose "Teleport takes as long as it would to fly", but that's effectively the same as Thia's.

[Lethosos]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Hrmm... I'm gonna go with the Computer route, and figure out how to put that into HD2. The TP, while simpler, doesn't work out that well, IMO. The Extra Time thing doesn't wrap too well for me to make it work.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Hrmm... I'm gonna go with the Computer route' date=' and figure out how to put that into HD2. The TP, while simpler, doesn't work out that well, IMO. The Extra Time thing doesn't wrap too well for me to make it work.[/quote']

 

I don't normally say this, but for the record, you are grossly over-complicating an extremely simple power. However, your game, YMMV, etc. But trust me when I tell you that you are giving yourself far more work than necessary.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

The problem I see with a Computer/AI solution is that while it can (I think) control the character when he's (?) unconscious, it's still the character's body that is doing the transporting (i.e., spending END). No END for movement powers, no movement regardless of who's in the pilot's seat. If this is actually a desired effect/mechanic and not a problem, then nevermind.

 

That's assuming the characters flight costs END. Also, END Reserves don't drop to 0 even if a character is unconscious; if the Flight did cost END an END Reserve could be bought for the Flight. You could even limit it to "Only Usable While Unconscious".

 

If the compouter/AI can take control of the character's body in his stead, then there is no need for the movement power to be made Peristent, the same as any movement power in a vehicle or automaton.

Not the same thing at all. Vehicle movement is handled a little differently than character movement, as discussed in detail in TUV. Even if a GM allowed an AI piloting the PC scenario, the PC is not actually a vehicle and their flight power would need Persistent to run while they were unconscious.

 

Of course, on the other hand, once you start handwaving to reach an effect, you can go as far as you need to.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

I don't normally say this' date=' but for the record, you are grossly over-complicating an extremely simple power. However, your game, YMMV, etc. But trust me when I tell you that you are giving yourself far more work than necessary.[/quote']

 

Disagree.

 

Trust me, people post ideas for doing things on these boards all the time that I think are ill-advised, poorly thought out, or reveal a certain fundamental misunderstanding of how the game or a particular mechanic works, as well as some that are legal per se but which I feel are clumsy. In the end though, all that matters is that those positing such ideas are happy with their own approaches and enjoy the results in game.

 

In this case the OP has a legitimate concern that the abstracting of T-Port doesnt work for them as a means to model an autopilot. It is a very gamist approach after all and though it does accomplish the effect in a certain fashion it is not a clear cut implementation and it does introduce logical problems due to the mechanic being employed. There is no reason for them to use the construct if it doesnt jive, and every reason to seek a solution that makes more sense to them.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Disagree.

 

Trust me, people post ideas for doing things on these boards all the time that I think are ill-advised, poorly thought out, or reveal a certain fundamental misunderstanding of how the game or a particular mechanic works, as well as some that are legal per se but which I feel are clumsy. In the end though, all that matters is that those positing such ideas are happy with their own approaches and enjoy the results in game.

 

In this case the OP has a legitimate concern that the abstracting of T-Port doesnt work for them as a means to model an autopilot. It is a very gamist approach after all and though it does accomplish the effect in a certain fashion it is not a clear cut implementation and it does introduce logical problems due to the mechanic being employed. There is no reason for them to use the construct if it doesnt jive, and every reason to seek a solution that makes more sense to them.

 

Absolutely, I see precisely what you mean, and I took that into consideration. However, as I said, this is one of the few times where I felt a need to say "EH! Eh ... oh, dear... well, yeah, okay, your game. YMMV." It's not that I don't post disagreements on a regular basis, it's that I don't normally point and say "No, that's just wrong." Which is effectively what I did here, meaning no disrespect, just having a very strong opinion on the matter.

 

So if it was misinterpreted as "that's stupid" or "YOU are wrong for wanting to do it YOUR way" I apologize. It was meant only to say "Yes, you can do it the long, weird way, but IMO, it ain't worth the effort." As always, YMMV.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Absolutely yes, if for no other reason that it's easiest to build that way, but you could always build in a variable limitation (Extra time, time varies based on distance, -1/2). We can sit here and debate it if you like, but at the end of the day, other than fickling over the time (which isn't really the important element of the power) the power itself is most reasonably built as Teleport/Trigger.

 

Here:

 

Custom Limitation, Extra Time, User moves in Real Time (GM may select the appropriate amount of time required to travel distance at time of use, -1).

 

Voila.

 

It just sounds wrong to me though. And why Trigger? I thought this was supposed to be something that was consciously controlled (not consciously performed, but consciously controlled: i.e. the character has to deliberately want to go home and be physically capable to doing so).

 

In any case, for me, an autopilot will (almost) always be built as a Computer.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Inflicting Mental Commands on Yourself

 

Different sides of the same coin. I don't know what "gamist" means, but I was simply looking for the shortest distance between two points. This is HERO, so that means you don't need to build it as an Autopilot; it can simply be a special effect of the power.

 

Insofar as Trigger, it's the easiest way to model (IMO) any kind of escape clause; the function of Trigger is to create an activation condition.

 

Villain: "Here, let me do an impression for you! CAW CAW BANG **** I'M DEAD!"

 

Player: Yeah, that stung. Okay, I need to get out of here, but even though I'm unconcious, I have Take the Long Way Home, so that trigger (I'm unconcious and/or I want to go home) will now Activate.

 

I used Teleport to model a comparatively safe flight; must cross through intervening space because he's "really there" and finally, "Extra Time (as the GM determines is required to cross said space, -1)" to model that it is actually 'flight' which I built with TP to represent a specific SFX.

 

I'm not saying it's the perfect approach, I'm just offering my two cents on how it would most efficiently be built and keep in the spirit of the power. By all means, if you want to build a "homing computer" in the bird's brain (heh, bird brain) and that resonates with you, go nuts. However, I may not be understanding the power correctly. To me, it sounds like "When down, go home automatically." I would need to see the actual power description to clarify that, so I may simply be interpreting it incorrectly.