Seacouver, Washington

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Here's a few of my NPCs. I'll get the needed ones into HD3 when I have time.

 

My own character is Warder, who is publicly known to be heiress and socialite Lisa Ward. She's the team's mage and is on a couple of civic committees. Her familiar, Midnight, is a black cat.

 

The NPCs used to flesh out the group are Knight and Shadowcat. Knight is based on a female paladin I saw in a D&D book and Shadowcat is loosly based on the Marvel one.

 

Among the general population are Solara, a teen heroine; the local "Scooby Gang", who deals with undead in the Northwestern quarter of the state; Ben Morgan from San Angelo; Daniel Carter, CEO and Chairman of the Board of Seacouver-based Carter International & the team's sponsor; Ruth Gray Wolf, D.V.M., the live-in vet at the Seacouver Zoo who can mentally communicate with animals; a group of people involved in motorsports; and an educational-specialist at the Seacouver Aviary who is a licensed falconer.

[Basil]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Very interesting ideas; I might mine some of the altered-timeline stuff at some point.

 

However, though I hate to rain on your parade, the idea is economically unbelievable. Why? There's no major city in the USA that doesn't have large-scale rail connections. To get a rail connection to the area you're talking about would take up much of the space now occupied by US-101. To have both rail and a good road (a freeway, really) would require a wider level tract than now exists in many place (e.g., along the west side of Hood Canal). So you're either assuming a MAJOR road/rail building project--one in the billions of $$ (which, economically, would pre-date the expansion of Seacouver, when there would be no need/utility for it), or assuming a major change in the geography of a huge area.

 

In either case, you're really straining the suspension of disbelief.

 

And, you're putting a major port on the (relatively) exposed Strait of Juan de Fuca, when there's already two in the (relatively) protected Puget Sound. Economically, it just doesn't work.

 

Frankly, I'd suggest putting your city where Nisqually or Dupont is now. Just a short bit past Olympia for the rail, reasonably flat area, good sized river already in place. Just say the small town of Nisqually/Dupont beat out the proto-cities of Tacoma and Seattle in getting the railroad to come to make its terminus; not hard, as it's a shorter distance. Cut Fort Lewis back a bit, to give Nisqually/Dupont room to grow, put levees around the mouth of the Nisqually River, build up the harbor, and dredge a bit, and you're good to go.

 

Of course, this means the work done to Commencement Bay and Elliott Bay wouldn't have happened, nor the work on the lower Duwamish and Puyallup Rivers, the Chittenden Locks wouldn't have been built, and so on and so forth. Quite a number of changes made.

 

NB: I'm assuming Seavouver displaces Seattle (and maybe Tacoma) as the big city in the region. Adding another large city to the region is highly unlikely; the economy is way, way to far from robust enough to sustain such a thing.

 

And anyway, I really like alternate history settings, and love working out how the changes came to be.

 

Since I live in the region, it's particularly interesting to me.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Good points, Basil. Consider yourself repped.

 

I may replace Seattle with Seacouver.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Very interesting ideas; I might mine some of the altered-timeline stuff at some point.

 

However, though I hate to rain on your parade, the idea is economically unbelievable. Why? There's no major city in the USA that doesn't have large-scale rail connections. To get a rail connection to the area you're talking about would take up much of the space now occupied by US-101. To have both rail and a good road (a freeway, really) would require a wider level tract than now exists in many place (e.g., along the west side of Hood Canal). So you're either assuming a MAJOR road/rail building project--one in the billions of $$ (which, economically, would pre-date the expansion of Seacouver, when there would be no need/utility for it), or assuming a major change in the geography of a huge area.

 

In either case, you're really straining the suspension of disbelief.

 

And, you're putting a major port on the (relatively) exposed Strait of Juan de Fuca, when there's already two in the (relatively) protected Puget Sound. Economically, it just doesn't work.

 

Well, if we combine the previously-mentioned concepts of an existing early settlement on the site, and the desire of the federal government to create a planned settlement in the area (and invest in same), with a noticeable but lesser change to the geography of the region which has been furthered by construction, IMHO it's not that great of a stretch.

 

In any case, this is for a supers setting. Quite apart from the inherent suspension of disbelief necessary for supers in the first place , there can be any number of preternatural causes for the vicinity of Seacouver to be different from the surrounding geography. That could be woven into the background of the setting.

 

Just one suggested example: the Spaniards may have found or brought a mystic artifact (from home, from a Native American tribe in the area, or from Mexico) which has influence on the weather. Perhaps it was lost in a shipwreck, but since that time has been acting to calm the Strait of Juan de Fuca around Seacouver.

 

NB: I'm assuming Seavouver displaces Seattle (and maybe Tacoma) as the big city in the region. Adding another large city to the region is highly unlikely; the economy is way' date=' way to far from robust enough to sustain such a thing.[/quote']

 

Again, there may be special reasons for Seacouver and its environs to be here. Besides, I don't think Seacouver has to necessarily rival Seattle in size or importance; there's plenty of story potential in a city of half a million, for example.

 

But of course, it all comes down to what Mark is comfortable with.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Again, there may be special reasons for Seacouver and its environs to be here. Besides, I don't think Seacouver has to necessarily rival Seattle in size or importance; there's plenty of story potential in a city of half a million, for example.

 

But of course, it all comes down to what Mark is comfortable with.

 

At one time, I was considering using Pittsburgh (population aprox. 320,000) as the basis for Seacouver.

[Vondy]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

I lived in seattle for 27 years. In the absence of a viable place for a port of notable scale (not a good section of coast), being literally on the edges of a rain-forrest, having rough seas, high winds, and very wet weather most of the year), and being off the beaten track in terms of land travel: you have the olympics and a rain forrest as natural obstacles and the coast there is the end of the line as opposed to a crossroads or potential trade point, what economic factors are driving this cities development? Logging and fishing? While both are viable in terms of building townships - and did result in the emergence of townships on that stretch of coast - they aren't viable in terms of building cities. Cities have to have more economic factors in play for them to really grow. There's a reason there isn't a city there today - its not a good place to build a city. I know, I'm being a stick in the mud, but if you're going to drop a city down somewhere you need to provide a rational explanation for its development and continued existence, as well as have some idea of what drives its economy (though you certainly don't have to crunch too many numbers). I guess my point is: if you do decide to do this you need to do some fancy footwork to explain the city's success.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

I lived in seattle for 27 years. In the absence of a viable place for a port of notable scale (not a good section of coast)' date=' being literally on the edges of a rain-forrest, having rough seas, high winds, and very wet weather most of the year), and being off the beaten track in terms of land travel: you have the olympics and a rain forrest as natural obstacles and the coast there is the end of the line as opposed to a crossroads or potential trade point, what economic factors are driving this cities development? Logging and fishing? While both are viable in terms of building townships - and did result in the emergence of townships on that stretch of coast - they aren't viable in terms of building cities. Cities have to have more economic factors in play for them to really grow. There's a reason there isn't a city there today - its not a good place to build a city. I know, I'm being a stick in the mud, but if you're going to drop a city down somewhere you need to provide a rational explanation for its development and continued existence, as well as have some idea of what drives its economy (though you certainly don't have to crunch too many numbers). I guess my point is: if you do decide to do this you need to do some fancy footwork to explain the city's success.[/quote']

 

By those criteria though, there should be a city anywhere there is one in the real world. Cities develop logically for economic reasons. If there's not a city in place X in the real world, then there's a reason. You can come up with reasons why there should be a city by changing key factors, but that's kind of the point of this thread.

I agree this is not a good place for a major city. But why is Gotham where it is? (Wherever that may be).

Fictional cities exist primarily so that the creator is spared laborious research and has artistic freedom to create settings to match the needs of the story.

It would be pretty easy to solve most of the problems you mention above with a bit of geo-engineering and hand-waving. Example:

30,000 years ago, a large meteor struck near the mouth of the JdF Strait. This caused it to become slightly more landlocked. This forms a natural breakwater for the Strait. This meteor contained significant amounts of valuable metals: Iron, copper, whathaveyou. This created a mining surge in the area and formed the basis (along with timber) for heavy industry. Railroads were built along what would be the (widened) Highway 101 corridor. The area posited for Seacouver actually receives significantly less rain than Seattle, so that's not an issue.

As the years went on, Seacouver began to grow at the expense of some of Seattle's growth. Refineries were placed in nearby areas to service the big tankers that come down from Alaska.

(If you want to go more fantastic, have the meteor contain significant amounts of Unbelievium or Mutigenium and you have more outlandish stories with flying cars or neighborhood mutants.)

 

Yeah, it's fancy footwork, as you said, but it's really not all that fancy for what is essentially a comic book city. It's a darn sight more work than is presented for Star City or Gateway City in the DC universe.

 

Keith "In a comic book universe, disbelief is not suspended so much as hung out to dry" Curtis

[Basil]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

BTW, I did some research, using a program I have that is, essentially, topographic maps on CD-ROMs.

 

There is, in fact, a railroad in Port Angeles. Westward from there, the topos show "Old Railroad Grade" as far as Tyee. Eastward, there's a railroad to Port Townsend. Curiously, there is neither railroad nor (marked) old railroad grade south from Port Townsend (Discovery Bay, actually) to Olympia, which would be needed to link Strait-of-Juan-de-Fuca-Seacouver (henceforth SoJdFS) to the rest of the world.

 

I suspect there was once a railroad that would've worked for SoJdFS, but that US 101 took over its old railbed. If you wanted a good railroad (double line at least) and a freeway to SoJdFS, you are going to be cramped for space between the mountains and the sea. BTW, Keith, the real cramped space is not where the lines would be next to the Straight of Juan de Fuca, but along Hood Canal. Judging by the topos, US 101 has problems squeezing in. And I am guessing that US 101 is a 2-lane road north of Shelton (or at least Hoodsport): Keith, can you confirm or deny?

 

Now it is true that if you wanted Mouth-of-the-Nisqually-Seacouver (MotNS), you'd have to do a lot of dredging and dyking and rearranging the coastlie and such, but then again, look at Commensement Bay; that had to be pretty much completely reshaped before Tacoma could become a decent harbor town.

 

And don't forget; one of the things that gave Seattle a boost was the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific (CMSPP) railroad building a line over the Snoqualmie Pass and down to the Sound. With that there, the decision of the Burlington to make Seattle, rather than Tacoma, their terminus was assured. If you want MotNS, much less SoJdFS, you're going to have to explain why the CMSPP went all the way down the coast (or why the CMSPP never built the Snoqualmie line).

 

Hmm... I'm going to have to think about that...

[keithcurtis]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

BTW, I did some research, using a program I have that is, essentially, topographic maps on CD-ROMs.

 

There is, in fact, a railroad in Port Angeles. Westward from there, the topos show "Old Railroad Grade" as far as Tyee. Eastward, there's a railroad to Port Townsend. Curiously, there is neither railroad nor (marked) old railroad grade south from Port Townsend (Discovery Bay, actually) to Olympia, which would be needed to link Strait-of-Juan-de-Fuca-Seacouver (henceforth SoJdFS) to the rest of the world.

While there is no rail in PA that I know of, there are old railbeds. A rather popular trail uses one of them, the Spruce Railroad Trail. Also, the Olympic Discovery Trail uses old railbeds in parts I believe. I can't verify, because the official site is having spasms right now.

I suspect there was once a railroad that would've worked for SoJdFS' date=' but that US 101 took over its old railbed. If you wanted a good railroad (double line at least) [u']and[/u] a freeway to SoJdFS, you are going to be cramped for space between the mountains and the sea. BTW, Keith, the real cramped space is not where the lines would be next to the Straight of Juan de Fuca, but along Hood Canal. Judging by the topos, US 101 has problems squeezing in. And I am guessing that US 101 is a 2-lane road north of Shelton (or at least Hoodsport): Keith, can you confirm or deny?

This is very true. Parts of it are similar to coastal Highway 1, barely enough room for the roadway. However, as I hinted at before, adding another fifty feet of usable space shouldn't cause anyone's suspension of disbelief to come toppling down. Players rarely obsess over this as much as GMs.

 

Keith "At least mine never do" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

This site has historical info about railroads in Washington, including the incorporation of several PA railroad companies. I suspect these are logging railways and not connected with any major lines, though.

 

Keith "Still feels this to be niggling detail for a superhero city" Curtis

[Basil]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

While there is no rail in PA that I know of' date=' there are old railbeds. A rather popular trail uses one of them, the Spruce Railroad Trail. Also, the Olympic Discovery Trail uses old railbeds in parts I believe. I can't verify, because the official site is having spasms right now.[/quote']

 

Well, considering the time-lag on updating topo maps, it's quite possible the rails have been pulled up since the maps were made, and the railbed turned into a public trail.

 

Quite possible; after all, it happened to the old CMStPP railroad through the Snoqualmie valley. The railbed/trail runs a stone's throw---well, a catapult's heave---from where I live, so I'm familiar with the process.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Well, considering the time-lag on updating topo maps, it's quite possible the railshave been pulled up since the maps were made, and the railbed turned into a public trail.

 

Quite possible; after all, it happened to the old CMStPP railroad through the Snoqualmie valley. The railbed/trail runs a stone's throw---well, a catapult's heave---from where I live, so I'm familiar with the process.

It happened right next door to my old house. The city turned an old rail corridor into a biking/walking path that reaches through Fresno to Clovis. Largest public tree-planting in US history. 7000 trees in one day.

 

Keith "We planted 7 of them." Curtis

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Yep, looks like Pittsburgh's going to be the model for Seacouver. First, Mount Washington gets removed, then the city is turned so that the Point faces North instead of the West.

 

The Allegheny River becomes the East River while the Monongahela and Ohio Rivers become the Seacouver River. The commercial harbor is on both sides of the river from the Point to the Strait, a distance of five miles. Railroad tracks cross the Seacouver River at some point, probably on a dedicated railroad bridge.

 

McDonald's bought the naming rights to the Seacouver Arena. Although it's officially the McDonald's Arena, wags call it the Mac Arena. (Joke originated by former KDKA Radio morning man John Cygna when naming rights for the Pittsburgh Civic Arena were first mentioned.)

 

The University of Seacouver is a Division 1A school in the Pac-10 (or is it Pac-12) Conference. Their mascot is the wolf and their colors are silver and brown. Jefferson High, an area high school, also uses the name and colors, as does Seacouver Gymnastics, one of the city's gymnastics schools.

 

The Seacouver Gymnastics's team in the 90s, known as the Superlative Seven, had an international reputation and were the gold medal winning United States Women's Olympic Gymnastics Team.

[Jaxom]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Some interesting bits that you might pull from the Seattle area as well...

 

Pea Patches - Lots of folks here take a lot or four and maintain them as a community garden. That'd provide some unique flavor to your otherwise modern, flashy city.

 

Lots (and I mean *lots*) of outdoors activities in the summer... There are festivals celebrating culture, art, music and a dozen other things, basically one a weekend between Memorial day and Labor day.

 

U of S probably has a standing rivalry with UW, WSU or both. Every year, the Apple Cup (UW and WSU) gets a large turn-out of locals.

 

Paul Allen, Paul Allen, Paul Allen... He owns the Blazers as I recall. He's got the Sci-fi museum and the Experience Music Project locally. He's got a yacht that could raise the property values of your port.

 

I know people who commute from as far away as Olympia and Bellingham to work at Microsoft. If Seacouver is there and has a real highway, they'll be Microsofties there and in the mountains south. This will be doubly true if you replace the ferries with something else.

 

Current underwater environments are well described at http://www.boydski.com/default.htm. Remember, not only is it cold, but it is dark in these waters. There are some excellent shots in the Neah Bay archive to remind you just *how* dark.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Great ideas, Jaxom. Consider yourself repped.

 

Let's see, Seacouver has lots of parades (some say too many). There are lots of parks with plenty of activities going on. Plans are in the work for a vintage car grand prix through one of the parks. As expected, it's somewhat of a political football, too.

 

Within the Seacouver area we have Seacouver Downs, a thoroughbred track; Seacouver Park, a harness track; the Seacouver Greyhound Club track, a dog track; Seacouver International Speedway, an Indy-style oval with an internal road course that was based on the former Ontario Motor Speedway; and Seacouver Raceway, a road course with an internal dragstrip that was based on the former Riverside International Raceway.

 

The thoroughbred and dog tracks and the speedway were built by Ben Morgan as part of an upscale development project. The harness track and road course are owned by Daniel Carter and have a more relaxed feel.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

As mentioned before, Seacouver Gymnastics has the colors silver and brown and the wolf as a mascot. It's across the street from Washington High School that has green and white as its colors and the dragon as a mascot. Interestingly enough, there is a rivalry between Washington High and Jefferson High, whose mascot was a wolf.

 

In the 1990s, all but one of Washington High's cheerleaders were the popular girls, or "Wenettes", after their leader, Wendy Ann Michaels. The popular girls were also the gymnastics team. The only cheerleader who wasn't in anything else was Carol Masters, their coach and the school's activities director who some idoit in the school administration decided had to be on the pep squad as well as its coach.

 

When the Superlative Seven returned to high school after winning Olympic gold and having dinner at the White House, they decided to wear their gymnastics school leotards in gym class. That set Wendy off. She accused them of not supporting the school and its athletic teams. Keiko, the Superlative Seven captain, who is now the technical manager for the superhero team the PCs are in, told Wendy where to stuff it.

 

In anger, Wendy, speaking for her 14-girl team, challenged Keiko's team to a gymnastics meet. The loosing team would spend one week not in class with the winning team. Keiko agreed.

 

Next: the meet

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

There are a few things to clear up before the meet. Carol, who is in her mid-20s, is married to Matt Masters, who is in eleventh grade. They live with his father, Jim, the Washington High football coach and his wife, Mary, the school nurse, who approve of the marriage.

 

The cheerleaders became the gymnastics team by default. The school principal wanted the school to have a gymnastics team and since the only other girls interested in gymnastics, the Superlative Seven, were inelegible because they didn't meet the WIAA's standards for amateur status, the cheerleaders were the gymnastics team.

 

On to the meet. The highest score anyone could receive on a single routine was a 10.0. During the introductions, the Seacouver Gymnastics Wolves were introduced as the gold medal winning United States women's gymnastics team. A series of wolf howls came from the girls and audience, and then they entered, wearing their Olympic uniforms, to the 1984 Olympic Fanfare, which was composed by John Williams.

 

In the first rotation, the Wolves were on vault and the Dragons were on uneven parallel bars. In the second rotation, they switched places. In the third rotation, the Wolves were on the balance beam and the Dragons were on the floor exersizes. In the fourth rotation, they again switched places.

 

In the first rotation, the Wolves had their highest score, 3 10.0s, and their lowest, 9.700. The Dragons also had their highest score, 9.200, and two girls scored between 8.000 & 8.999. As the meet continued, the Dragons luck grew worse. They lost the meet and the bet.

 

Next: after the meet

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

"Time for you and your team to pay up," Keiko told Wendy. I have your schedules for the next week. Since you'll be spending to much time with us, you can bunk upstairs with us, too. You'll find a list of what you need in the envelopes along with the schedules."

 

"You can't be serious," Wendy said in a haughty tone. "We have social committments to keep."

 

"Do you want it known that you welshed on a bit?" Keiko asked. Someone giggled behind Wendy, who turned to give the girl a piece of her mind and saw Carol. She also saw Matt, Jim, and Mary nearby, talking about stopping at Home Depot later to pick up some plumbing supplies.

 

"Fine. We'll see you in three hours," Wendy snapped. "Come on, girls. Let's go. We still have a few hours to have some fun."

 

"Those girls will never learn," Carol said before joining her family.

[Mark Rand]

Re: Seacouver, Washington

 

Of course, the above mentioned gymnastics meet wouldn't have happened if Wendy wasn't a very vain girl with the mental abilities of a retarded third grader.