Regeneration as a Spell

[Rapier]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

*Shrug*

I don't keep up with inconsistant FAQ rulings, but OK.

 

I was looking at my book, whichsays in no uncertain terms

 

"Any successful use of Healing Body stops Bleeding automatically, but wounds not fully healed can reopen normally."

 

Note the FAQ is refering to little "b" bleeding (post-12) not optional Bleeding rules bleeding.

Why Healing should by default stop the one, and not the other?

Beats me.

Also... this power ISN'T "Regeneration". It's a gradual effect Heal Body that happens to look like regeneration, 'cause, you know, you can't regenerate someone else.

 

Gods, this mess needs to be cleaned up, official like, eventually. THe stop-gap half measures are beginning to cloud the waters.

 

My query to Steve was mostly in regard to order of operations on Post-12. Steve's response clarified that the bleeding effect occurs BEFORE the Regen. So if you are at -1 BODY Post-12 you first bleed for 1 pt (taking you to -2 BODY) and then Regen 1 BODY (to take you back to -1 BODY). What the Regen healed was the additional bleed damage and not the original -1 BODY.

 

Makes sense to me.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

My query to Steve was mostly in regard to order of operations on Post-12. Steve's response clarified that the bleeding effect occurs BEFORE the Regen. So if you are at -1 BODY Post-12 you first bleed for 1 pt (taking you to -2 BODY) and then Regen 1 BODY (to take you back to -1 BODY). What the Regen healed was the additional bleed damage and not the original -1 BODY.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Oh, yeah.... I get it.

Granted, I don't agree, but I get it (healing 1 body per post 12 comes out to 5 Body per minute, 300 per hour, or 7200 Body per day. You'd think it could stop bleeding as well as a rag and direct pressure)

I'm just still bitter about the fact that increasing numbers of really vital "this fixes such and such problem" bits live in books I can't afford, including 5ER (which came out, literally, 2 months after I fnally got the original 5th Edition)

 

Its not that I'm opposed to giving DoJ/HERO my money, when I can, but UMA was probably the last book I could excuse buying for the few pages worth of changes they made from the previous edition I still own.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Currently that build will only Heal 3 points of BODY.

 

Remember, the character points of Healing still get applied the standard characteristic cost multiples. The same build would Heal 2 points of DEX and and 12 points of END.

 

Unless you're using the optional Simplified Healing rules, in which case the Body Rolled On The Dice is what's healing (dice are counted like Normal Damage Dice).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

*Shrug*

I don't keep up with inconsistant FAQ rulings, but OK.

 

I was looking at my book, whichsays in no uncertain terms

 

"Any successful use of Healing Body stops Bleeding automatically, but wounds not fully healed can reopen normally."

 

Note the FAQ is refering to little "b" bleeding (post-12) not optional Bleeding rules bleeding.

Why Healing should by default stop the one, and not the other?

Beats me.

Also... this power ISN'T "Regeneration". It's a gradual effect Heal Body that happens to look like regeneration, 'cause, you know, you can't regenerate someone else.

 

Gods, this mess needs to be cleaned up, official like, eventually. THe stop-gap half measures are beginning to cloud the waters.

 

I think the rule means the following:

 

Average-Dude gets shot and takes 3 points of Body Damage. He now has 7 Body. The optional Bleeding rules would make him take 1 additional Body per Turn until the bleeding is stopped.

 

The standard bleeding to death rules are in effect any time a character is at 0 or negative Body. If Average-Dude doesn't stop the optional bleeding before he gets to 0 or negative Body he will take 1 Body per Turn unless stabilized with paramedics and/or Healing. The rules suggest penalties to the paramedics roll based on how much below 0 Body the character currently is. If the character is continuing to fight while at negative Body it seems to makes sense that it would further exasperate the issue.

 

Basic issue is that bleeding is optional for a character who has taken Body damage but is still at positive Body. It is not when the character is at negative Body. 2 or more Body per turn Healing is the only way a character can rely on a brute force regeneration-like effect to get past this and get back to a positive Body value while still fighting or doing anything other than resting and/or treating his wounds.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Except. By rule you cannot Regen someone else. Forbidden. You have to heal 'em. You may ONLY regen yourself.

 

HERO 5ER p187: "[Regeneration Must be Bought With] Reduced END (0 END), Persistent, Extra Time, and Self Only." (edited for brevity)

 

You could do it as a UBO With Differing Modifiers. Edit: And in fact I believe there is either a ruling or an explicit (official or otherwise) rule to the effect that a UBO Power that would be beneficial to an unconscious or otherwise incapacitated character and is placed on said character works automatically, without the target having to "use" it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

You could do it as a UBO With Differing Modifiers. Edit: And in fact I believe there is either a ruling or an explicit (official or otherwise) rule to the effect that a UBO Power that would be beneficial to an unconscious or otherwise incapacitated character and is placed on said character works automatically' date=' without the target having to "use" it.[/quote']

 

Yeah but as Thia said, you can't combine UBO with the optional self only Regeneration form of Healing. It's like putting Range and No Range on the same power. Healing is UBO by default. If you want to grant a regeneration-like effect to the target of the Healing then you have to pay for all the required advantages.

 

The mechanical reason you shouldn't allow the optional Regeneration/Healing to be combined with UBO is that it masks the true Active Cost of the full build. It's like buying aditional advantages on Talents like Combat Luck. If you want something different you should build it from the base Power instead of the Talent.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

I think the rule means the following:

 

Average-Dude gets shot and takes 3 points of Body Damage. He now has 7 Body. The optional Bleeding rules would make him take 1 additional Body per Turn until the bleeding is stopped.

 

The standard bleeding to death rules are in effect any time a character is at 0 or negative Body. If Average-Dude doesn't stop the optional bleeding before he gets to 0 or negative Body he will take 1 Body per Turn unless stabilized with paramedics and/or Healing. The rules suggest penalties to the paramedics roll based on how much below 0 Body the character currently is. If the character is continuing to fight while at negative Body it seems to makes sense that it would further exasperate the issue.

 

Basic issue is that bleeding is optional for a character who has taken Body damage but is still at positive Body. It is not when the character is at negative Body. 2 or more Body per turn Healing is the only way a character can rely on a brute force regeneration-like effect to get past this and get back to a positive Body value while still fighting or doing anything other than resting and/or treating his wounds.

 

Hmmmm.....

I haven't ever combined both kinds of healing in a single wound. I could see it, reworking "simple" post-12 bleeding to reflect shock instead, but in general I dislike the whole "magic number" where you are suddenly bleeding to death. I also think that Regeneration and Healing should trump bleeding in most cases. It can lead to some illogical situations. 1 Body/Turn Regeneration w/ the ressurection adder could bring Bob (with 10 Body) back from the dead, whole and hearty, 6 times in an hour all day long, AS LONG AS YOU KILL HIM. Just wound him so hes at -1 body and suddenly he's stuck there indefinetly? WTF?

 

"Hold on guys...I'm no use to the team bleeding like this. Let me shoot myself in the head and we can get back to our buisness in 5 minutes or so. Smoke 'em if you got 'em"

*BLAM*

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Hmmmm.....

I haven't ever combined both kinds of healing in a single wound. I could see it, reworking "simple" post-12 bleeding to reflect shock instead, but in general I dislike the whole "magic number" where you are suddenly bleeding to death. I also think that Regeneration and Healing should trump bleeding in most cases. It can lead to some illogical situations. 1 Body/Turn Regeneration w/ the ressurection adder could bring Bob (with 10 Body) back from the dead, whole and hearty, 6 times in an hour all day long, AS LONG AS YOU KILL HIM. Just wound him so hes at -1 body and suddenly he's stuck there indefinetly? WTF?

 

"Hold on guys...I'm no use to the team bleeding like this. Let me shoot myself in the head and we can get back to our buisness in 5 minutes or so. Smoke 'em if you got 'em"

*BLAM*

 

I think it's more of a case where the Resurection Adder is ineffective unless 2 Body per turn is purchased. On a side note, I'm pretty sure that every published character with any form of Regeneration-Healing has it built with 2 Body per Turn unless using a slower time interval.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

I think it's more of a case where the Resurection Adder is ineffective unless 2 Body per turn is purchased. On a side note' date=' I'm pretty sure that every published character with any form of Regeneration-Healing has it built with 2 Body per Turn unless using a slower time interval.[/quote']

 

Sorry, H-Man, but to my ears what you just wrote screams "This rule wasn't thought through".

 

Does the Res Adder say that you have to take 2 Body/Turn? No.

Does the book state in bald, plain english that Healing Body stops Bleeding? Yes.

 

 

Easy as that, in my eyes.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Yeah but as Thia said' date=' you can't combine UBO with the optional self only Regeneration form of Healing. It's like putting Range and No Range on the same power. Healing is UBO by default. If you want to grant a regeneration-like effect to the target of the Healing then you have to pay for all the required advantages.[/quote']

 

If I recall correctly, the reason you can't buy Regeneration UBO using the standard build for Regeneration is that the standard build is Self Only (essentially, Steve has implied that the only way to get the Power to work the way Regeneration is supposed to is to build it in this very specific, very handwavey manner). Using the "With Differing Modifiers" variant of UBO, that's not an issue.

 

At any rate, I have a question out to Steve in the Rules Questions forum. That will settle it one way or the other.

 

(I still say, as others do, that Regeneration should be built using the "Reset Time" Advantage, and that doing it that way doesn't require any special builds or handwaving.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Does the Res Adder say that you have to take 2 Body/Turn? No.

Does the book state in bald, plain english that Healing Body stops Bleeding? Yes.

 

Agreed. Otherwise, you could be in the very odd position of, despite having Regeneration with the Resurrection adder, bleeding to death, then having your Regeneration bring you back to life. (Edit: Which, as I discover by rereading a little further up, you already mentioned. Oh well.)

[Rapier]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Agreed. Otherwise' date=' you could be in the very odd position of, despite having Regeneration with the Resurrection adder, bleeding to death, then having your Regeneration bring you back to life. (Edit: Which, as I discover by rereading a little further up, you already mentioned. Oh well.)[/quote']

 

There's all kinds of places too where Resurrection mentions that if you are going to be brought back from the dead, you STILL have to deal with whatever caused you to die in the first place. So if you have a bullet in your heart, coming back to life might not be as long term or as fun as you might have hoped.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

There's all kinds of places too where Resurrection mentions that if you are going to be brought back from the dead' date=' you STILL have to deal with whatever caused you to die in the first place. So if you have a bullet in your heart, coming back to life might not be as long term or as fun as you might have hoped.[/quote']

 

I'm inclined to say that the "Can heal limbs" adder probably takes care of this. It repairs Impaired and Disabled locations, can grow back severed bits, etc.

 

Heck, if one really wanted a concrete distinction between Healing that stops bleeding and Healing that doesn't, the "Limbs" adder is probably the way to go. If you can regrow a lung, you should be able to stop bleeding.

 

Edit: Hehe... maybe it should be renamed the "Repairs Optional Rule damage" adder.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Since Steve ruled that Continuous and Uncontrolled do not mix with Continuing Charges I submit a revised version:

 

32 You CAN heal those wounds!: Healing BODY 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Decreased Re-use Duration (20 Minutes; +3/4) (166 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; used during casting only; -1 1/4), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Minute; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage One Type of Damage (-1/4) [Notes: Functions as 2 Body per Turn Regeneration lasting 1 minute.] - END=17

[Rapier]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Since Steve ruled that Continuous and Uncontrolled do not mix with Continuing Charges I submit a revised version:

 

32 You CAN heal those wounds!: Healing BODY 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Decreased Re-use Duration (20 Minutes; +3/4) (166 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; used during casting only; -1 1/4), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), Gradual Effect (1 Minute; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage One Type of Damage (-1/4) [Notes: Functions as 2 Body per Turn Regeneration lasting 1 minute.] - END=17

 

Base Regen is not real cheap, but I gotta say DA-YAMN!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Base Regen is not real cheap' date=' but I gotta say DA-YAMN![/quote']

 

Yep, the only other option is to just remove the Continuing Charge from the original build, add 0 END and take a custom duration limitation.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Here's a triggered version:

 

32 2 BODY "Regeneration Spell": Healing BODY 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit); Whenever character has taken Body damage. Effect lasts 1 hour.; +1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (152 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; Only used during casting.; -1 1/4), Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate, -3/4), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Does Not Work On Some Damage One Type of Damage (??; -1/4) - END=0

 

I'm not sure about the need for both Persistent & Trigger since I never used the advantage in a build before.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

There's all kinds of places too where Resurrection mentions that if you are going to be brought back from the dead' date=' you STILL have to deal with whatever caused you to die in the first place. So if you have a bullet in your heart, coming back to life might not be as long term or as fun as you might have hoped.[/quote']

 

OTOH as resurrection is an adder to healing, perhaps you don't live again until the healing gets to back into 'living' territory?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

Healing 1d6 (Body) 10 points

 

Decreased re-use duration +1 1/2

 

Extra time (1 turn) Can't take other actions - 1 1/2

 

10 points (25 active)

 

Adding in resurrection makes it 30 points (75 active).

 

Funny old game.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

There's all kinds of places too where Resurrection mentions that if you are going to be brought back from the dead' date=' you STILL have to deal with whatever caused you to die in the first place. So if you have a bullet in your heart, coming back to life might not be as long term or as fun as you might have hoped.[/quote']

 

For a regular Healing: On the one hand, yeah, if you've only got, say, 4d6 of standard Healing with Resurrection, then if you hit them with one application and heal 4 BODY, and they come back at -6, then yeah, they could easily have to be dealing with whatever killed them. (Solution: take out the bullet, sew them up while they're dead, then bring them back.) On the other hand, the player did pay for the Resurrection adder, and saying that "Even though you paid for it, it doesn't really work because of X, Y, and/or Z" smacks of GM bullying.

 

For Regeneration, you don't have to worry about that, because your Resurrection brings you back and you then start Regenerating. A number of Turns equal to (whatever BODY you're down) / (whatever your Regeneration is per turn), you're alive and well at full BODY.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Regeneration as a Spell

 

OTOH as resurrection is an adder to healing' date=' perhaps you don't live again until the healing gets to back into 'living' territory?[/quote']

 

So it could take several applications over several days, unless you've bought down the "reset time"?

 

As long as "living" territory means, above -1x original BODY. If I've got 10 BODY, and I'm down to -17, then it's totally fair to require a Healing bring me up to -10 in order to resurrect me. But once I hit -10 I should then be alive.