What is the best way to build this?

[Zeropoint]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

I don't have much experience with double action revolvers, so if my information doesn't include them, I apollogize for the oversight. A single-action revolver does have the limitations I mentioned. Bob Munden is using a modified revolver I believe; at least I've only ever seen him do that trick with a single specific revolver. Everything else is too slow. Still, even he can't unload all six shots in the space of what might be a single Phase in a combat situation with such accuracy that he can hope to hit each target, though he might be able to get all six shots off...

 

Granted: Munden DOES use a modified revolver, because on an unmodified one, the hammer would be hard to manipulate with his technique, and would damage his hand, and also because the gun would not hold up very well under that kind of treatment.

 

However, I can safely say that your limit of two rounds in the space of 1.5 seconds is not accurate, because I've seen good shooters in Cowboy Action Shooting matches do much better than that--getting five shots off in about two seconds, AND scoring five hits on the steel plate targets.

 

Of course, reloading a single-action revolver is so slow that you carry a whole second gun as your reload.

[SuperGuy]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

I just read Blazing away. With a six shooter, why bother unless you have really lucky dice... "When blazing away, the character makes one attack roll for each attack fired, but he hits his target only if he rolls a 3 (this number cannot be imporved with Combat Skill Levels, Combat Modifiers, or any other method). You should just add another slot to your multipower and call is Blazing Away, give it an 8- activation, clip is emptied, variable special effect limited to ammo, random effect.

 

The maneuver is good for 2 things, neither depending on the ammo you're shooting... Added presence for an extremely violent action and emptying your clip.

 

Rapid fire is tricky. My question is how you define your multi. Do you say, the first bullet is blah and the second is blah... or can you chose which comes out. If the bullet comes out in a random order, say a variable special effect for each charge in the multi (the multi having the charges and not the slots) then switching slots is not a problem. Since the maneuver is defined by using multiple charges and if each charge is random. Actually, charges kind of overrule the multi-slot rule... when changing slots the other power is turned off, unless its a charge... blah blah blah... Plus, the maneuver itself overrides the action phase. Normally you can only shoot 1 power once. Being able to shoot multiple times with this maneuver, why not use different slots in the multi for each shot or charge. There nothing saying you can't with this manuever.

 

It's really all about the special effect in this case, and special effect overrides many rules. I would make a multi power with 6ch many clips (representing the gun chamber) and clip charges must be defined and have each slot have charges (representing all the bullets in your possession). I would add requires a skill roll to chose slot based on clip load. You wouldn't be able to chose your shots for the rapid fire because you won't be able to make a skill roll during the maneuver.

 

Unfortunately, you're not going to find a rule for every possible situation in the Hero book... but they try.

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

What?!? Why the heck not? I only have FREd (5th UNrevised). Or am I misunderstanding the rule? If I buy two 25-point powers separately' date=' I can use them together in an MPA, but if they're both slots in the same 50-point Multipower (big enough to hold both of them at the same time) for a *greater* point cost, then I can't MPA them? Is that what this rule says? If so, Steve needs to be taken behind the shed. I *really* want to know the "reasoning" behind that one! What if they're Multi- slots instead of Ultras? Does the same rule apply?[/quote']

 

Copied directly from the 5ER: page 311:

Characters can use slots from two or more different Power Frameworks to perform a multiple-power attack... However, a character may not combine two or more slots from a single Power Framework as part of a multiple-power attack, even if he has sufficient reserve or base points to use both slots at once.

*empahsis added by me*

 

Except that activating an attack power is the end of your phase (after determining if you hit and any damage' date=' page 370). You cannot activate more than a single attack power in a phase, nor can you use more than a single attack power in a Blazing Away or Rapid Fire maneuver.[/quote'] Unfortunately, that is not completely correct. Look at page 358 of the 5ER. Under Multiple-Power Attacks it states:

A character may use as many Attack Powers (or other attacks) in a Phase as he wishes, provided he meets several restrictions

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

What?!? Why the heck not? I only have FREd (5th UNrevised). Or am I misunderstanding the rule? If I buy two 25-point powers separately' date=' I can use them together in an MPA, but if they're both slots in the same 50-point Multipower (big enough to hold both of them at the same time) for a *greater* point cost, then I can't MPA them? Is that what this rule says? If so, Steve needs to be taken behind the shed. I *really* want to know the "reasoning" behind that one! What if they're Multi- slots instead of Ultras? Does the same rule apply?[/quote']

Yep, thems the rules. I'm sure we've found another rule we can both agree sucks rocks.

 

The solution I was going to suggest violates the above rule. But Dust Raven's is even better: call it a "real weapon" and do what you like.

 

BTW, I would recommend that you don't bother with Blazing Away. That's a maneuver for Stormtroopers and similar incompetent mooks. You can dance around in someone's Blazing Away and almost never get hit. You only hit on a 3 - that's one time in 216 shots. That's why R2D2 and C3P0 could slowly walk across the corridor through a hail of blaster fire without getting hit.

Also agreed. Blazing Away is only useful as a last resort, or to impress the easily impressed.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

What?!? Why the heck not? I only have FREd (5th UNrevised). Or am I misunderstanding the rule? If I buy two 25-point powers separately' date=' I can use them together in an MPA, but if they're both slots in the same 50-point Multipower (big enough to hold both of them at the same time) for a *greater* point cost, then I can't MPA them? Is that what this rule says?[/quote']

 

Yes, this was one of those "clarifications that didn't change the rules" that appears to clearly be a change in the rules as previously written.

 

If so' date=' Steve needs to be taken behind the shed. I *really* want to know the "reasoning" behind that one! What if they're Multi- slots instead of Ultras? Does the same rule apply?[/quote']

 

Two powers from the same framework can never be used in an MPA. I agree it's a stupid rule. It's in 5er, in plain language, so it is the rules by the book. IMO, the rules should provide that any number of powers from the same framework can be used in an MPA provided that the pool would otherwise be adequate to support the use of all of the powers simultaneously (ie a multipower can't have more than the total pool in AP). I would also suggest a rule that the total AP of powers from a VPP used in an MPA cannot exceed the VPP pool.

 

For the solution, what if all of the slots had self-resetting triggers that require another bullet be fired AND the character intend to fire the Triggered attack when the first bullet is fired? That's going to be an expensive advantage, but it would technically allow him to fire as many bullets in a row as he wants.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Granted: Munden DOES use a modified revolver, because on an unmodified one, the hammer would be hard to manipulate with his technique, and would damage his hand, and also because the gun would not hold up very well under that kind of treatment.

 

However, I can safely say that your limit of two rounds in the space of 1.5 seconds is not accurate, because I've seen good shooters in Cowboy Action Shooting matches do much better than that--getting five shots off in about two seconds, AND scoring five hits on the steel plate targets.

 

Of course, reloading a single-action revolver is so slow that you carry a whole second gun as your reload.

I haven't seen that kind of shooting without serious modification of the weapon.

 

Of course, we're talking a game here, so everything I said could be ignored I guess. The character can be assumed to have a modified revolver, or maybe the double-action.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Yep' date=' thems the rules. I'm sure we've found another rule we can both agree sucks rocks.[/quote']

 

Yes, this was one of those "clarifications that didn't change the rules" that appears to clearly be a change in the rules as previously written.

 

Two powers from the same framework can never be used in an MPA. I agree it's a stupid rule. It's in 5er, in plain language, so it is the rules by the book.

Well, now you know why I don't place so much weight on the specific details of the "rules" and instead work from the tools and the underlying principles of the system. In case it isn't already obvious, I will be completely ignoring that rule for my games, now, and when I eventually buy 5ER. And I will advocate that others do the same, as this rule is unworthy of the system and violates its principles. And when I say as much in future threads, I'm sure there will be many who will flame me for it, saying, "How dare you say that the rules are wrong!? Steve himself has handed them down to us from the holy mountain!" I humbly ask that everyone refrain from doing so. I have no respect for such an argument.

 

I can see a justification fot the rule in the specific case of an Elemental Control, because in that case, a character pays less than the full real points of the combined powers being used. But in the cases of a MP or VPP, the cost of the framework is always going to exceed the full Real Points of the powers used.

 

Straight buy:

50 Attack A

50 Attack B

Total cost: 100

MPA with A and B - Allowed

 

MP:

100 Reserve

5u Attack A

5u Attack B

... other slots

Total cost: 110+

MPA with A and B - Not Allowed

 

VPP:

100 Pool

50 Control cost

Total cost: 150

MPA with A and B - Not Allowed

 

EC:

25 Elemental Control - Whatever SFX

25 Attack A (50 Active)

25 Attack B (50 Active)

Total cost: 75

MPA with A and B - Not Allowed

 

2 MPs:

50 Reserve One

5u Attack A

... other slots

50 Reserve Two

5u Attack B

... other slots

Total cost: 110+

MPA with A and B - Allowed

 

OK, enough of this. I'm way off-topic. Sorry. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Unfortunately' date=' that is not completely correct. Look at page 358 of the 5ER. Under Multiple-Power Attacks it states:[/quote']

 

The two set of texts are actually for two different concepts: multiple attack powers with a single attack roll, and a single attack power with multiple attack rolls (using a maneuver).

 

There are no rules for multiple attack powers with multiple attack rolls (TMK) outside of using the exact same multiple attack powers and a maneuver to gain multiple attack rolls.

 

Continuing your quote:

 

A character may use as many Attack Powers (or other attacks) in a Phase as he wishes, provided he meets several restrictions.

 

...

 

Second, he can only make one Attack Roll.

 

Maneuvers, of course, can allow for multiple attack rolls, but they must each be for the same attack power (or same group of attack powers).

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

KarinsDad: Your right. But look at what I was responding to...

You cannot activate more than a single attack power in a phase

 

Thats waht I said that you weren't completely correct on the matter.

 

But as I said, you are right. There is no way to use multiple attacks with the blaze away or rapid fire manuevers. If I want to use multiple powers they must:

 

A: Not come from powers bought in the same framework.

 

B: use 1 attack roll

 

C: all have the same target.

 

However, I think I may have actually come up with a way to do what I want. The problem with it is that it is horribly over-complicated and backwards, and so overly expensive that it isn't worth doing.

 

Let me explain what I'm thinking of here:

 

I believe that the way to build this requires buying each power once, and then buying it again and linking it to each of the other powers.

 

Here's what I mean:

 

I have 3 kinds of bullets. And I want to be able to fire any combination of those 3 kinds of bullets in one phase, with a maximum of six shots.

 

I buy:

8 1) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6-1 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4), 12 Charges (-1/4)

 

8 2) Silver Bullets: RKA 2d6-1 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4), 12 Charges (-1/4)

 

14 3) Armor Piercing Bullets: RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (45 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4)

 

I then also have to buy:

 

7 A)Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6-1 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4), 12 Charges (-1/4), linked to power 2 and power 3 (-1/2), Requires the expediture of 1 charge from power 1 (-1/4)

 

7 Silver Bullets: RKA 2d6-1 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4), 12 Charges (-1/4), linked to power 1 and power 3 (-1/2), Requires the expediture of 1 charge from power 2 (-1/4)

 

12 C) Armor Piercing Bullets: RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (45 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4)

linked to power 1 and power 2 (-1/4), Requires the expediture of 1 charge from power 3 (-1/4)

 

 

And, if I want to ever make a new kind of bullet, I would have to add it to the list twice.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Well' date=' now you know why I don't place so much weight on the specific details of the "rules" and instead work from the tools and the underlying principles of the system. In case it isn't already obvious, I will be completely ignoring that rule for my games, now, and when I eventually buy 5ER. And I will advocate that others do the same, as this rule is unworthy of the system and violates its principles. And when I say as much in future threads, I'm sure there will be many who will flame me for it, saying, "How dare you say that the rules are wrong!? Steve himself has handed them down to us from the holy mountain!" I humbly ask that everyone refrain from doing so. I have no respect for such an argument.[/quote']

 

You'll certainly get no flack from me over this. There are only a handful of rules I think were just bad ideas and should be tossed from the system. This is one of them. (The others being the BOECV Entangle makes it invulnerable to people without special powers, not being able to apply AoE to Powers with UAA, and the pay once END cost of STR.)

[SteveZilla]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

What I want is the ability (regardless of what ammo is loaded in the gun) to fan. It is a traditional gunslinger trick' date=' and the closest thing the character can get to sprading or sweeping. Or in other words: I want him to have the ability to hit multiple targets in a single phase using [i']non-[/i]AOE attacks.

 

A lot of this depends upon how the gun is built. Presuming it's a multipower with each slot representing the different kinds of ammo, and the Pool with the charges limitation,

 

EDIT: forgot that the gunwas defined in the original post:

Colt Peacemaker: Multipower, OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), 60 point reserve (30 real points)

1u 1) Normal Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, 4 6-charge clips (-1/4) (25 active points)

1u 2) Silver Bullets: RKA 2d6-1, 4 6-charge clips (-1/4) (25 active points)

2u 3) Armor Piercing Bullet: RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) 2 6-charge clips (-1/2) (45 active points)

 

A couple of things stand out to me.

• The Reserve is much larger than any single slot. It is large enough to active the two smaller slots simultaneously (#1 & #2), but not the biggest one and another one. There *might be* exceptions to making Multiple-Power Attacks wth multiple slots in the same Multipower in this instance.
  
• There is not an additional limitation on each of the slots that limits them all collectively to only 6 charges. History wasn't my strong point, but I'm pretty sure Colt didn't make an 18-shot revolver.

I think you can "build" Rapid Fire if you buy this for each slot:

 

Naked Advantage: Trigger(One Defined Condition - "Fanning the Gun", Activation takes no time, Half-Phase to Set, Trigger can expire - Holstering; +¼) + Autofire(5 shots; +½) + Zero END(+1) - Major Side Effects(Cumulative -2 OCV after Frist Shot, Side Effect Always Occurs, Predefined amount of 'damage'; -3/4) - OAF(Pistol; -1) - Real Weapon(-¼)

 

For a 25 AP powers, it costs 5 Real Points each. For the 45 AP power, it costs 9 Real Points. 19 all together.

 

I think your only other option is to convince the GM to let you Rapid Fire but he gets to pick which of the ammos used hits (if any hit). You might be able to convice him to use a random determination of which kind it was that hit.

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

A couple of things stand out to me.

• The Reserve is much larger than any single slot. It is large enough to active the two smaller slots simultaneously (#1 & #2), but not the biggest one and another one. There *might be* exceptions to making Multiple-Power Attacks wth multiple slots in the same Multipower in this instance.
  
• There is not an additional limitation on each of the slots that limits them all collectively to only 6 charges. History wasn't my strong point, but I'm pretty sure Colt didn't make an 18-shot revolver.

I think you can "build" Rapid Fire if you buy this for each slot:

 

1) sorry, I copied off of my scrap sheet, and I had planned on having other types of bullets, like "stun bullets" which were going to be an EB (no body), and explosive bullets. Some of the bullets were going to cost upwards of 60 points, so thats why the pool is so big.

 

2) each slot in the gun was originally defined as having X 6-charge clips. If you read clips, it says that you need to reload (full phase action, or a half phase action if a fast draw roll is made) once the clip is emptied.

 

 

Naked Advantage: Trigger(One Defined Condition - "Fanning the Gun", Activation takes no time, Half-Phase to Set, Trigger can expire - Holstering; +¼) + Autofire(5 shots; +½) + Zero END(+1) - Major Side Effects(Cumulative -2 OCV after Frist Shot, Side Effect Always Occurs, Predefined amount of 'damage'; -3/4) - OAF(Pistol; -1) - Real Weapon(-¼)

 

For a 25 AP powers, it costs 5 Real Points each. For the 45 AP power, it costs 9 Real Points. 19 all together.

 

I think your only other option is to convince the GM to let you Rapid Fire but he gets to pick which of the ammos used hits (if any hit). You might be able to convice him to use a random determination of which kind it was that hit.

 

I like this idea.

 

How many active points is it? Or is that supposed to be: How many active points does that add? I have always had a hard time figuring out the math for naked advantages.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

What I want is the ability (regardless of what ammo is loaded in the gun) to fan. It is a traditional gunslinger trick' date=' and the closest thing the character can get to sprading or sweeping. Or in other words: I want him to have the ability to hit multiple targets in a single phase using non-AOE attacks.[/quote']

 

Something else has occurred to me. Why can't you spread? In 5th Edition you can spread any ranged attack, including RKAs. You could just buy a few extra dice, perhaps outside the MP, with the Limitation Only To Spread (-3/4).

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Something else has occurred to me. Why can't you spread? In 5th Edition you can spread any ranged attack' date=' including RKAs. You could just buy a few extra dice, perhaps outside the MP, with the Limitation Only To Spread (-3/4).[/quote']

 

That would normally work, but there are a couple of problems with it.

 

1) It still doesn't allow me to shoot a lead bullet and a silver bullet in the same phase.

 

2) If you spread, you only use 1 charge.

 

3) Guns that use bullets are normally bought with Beam, and you can't spread an attack that has Beam.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

I haven't had a chance to look through Dark Champions or Fantasy Hero to check on this but it sure seems like 2 weapon fighting would be the most simple and rules legal way to get around this issue.

 

Just build the weapon as a normal multipower and then pay an extra 5 points for a second weapon. Now you can use rapid attack (or is it rapid fire? whatever the ranged version of sweep is) to fire one slot with one weapon and a different slot with the second weapon. Offhand penalties are the only added issue.

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Hyper-Man: Having two guns doesn't actually solve the real problem here.

 

YES having two weapons would allow me to fire two different kinds of bullets in the same phase, so you did suggest a viable solution to that problem.

 

However, the real question is:

 

How can I fire multiple different kinds of bullets in the same phase using ONLY 1 WEAPON?

 

That is want I an answer for.

 

I would prefer it if I could use the actual rapid fire and blaze away manuevers (regardless of how useless either one may be), but if I need to buy a power that simulates using the manuever that is fine.

 

I'm sorry but two guns does not solve the issue.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

However, the real question is:

 

How can I fire multiple different kinds of bullets in the same phase using ONLY 1 WEAPON?

 

That is want I an answer for.

 

You might not find what you are looking for as far as RAW is concerned.

 

The only reasonable way to do this (as far as suggestions go so far) is to use Multipower Attacks.

 

That is not multiple attack rolls. Nor will it necessarily be 60 Active points or less.

 

But, you cannot get blood from a stone. If the rules do not allow for what you want to do under the restrictions that you have laid out, then they do not allow it. You are treading into meta-rules here and those are pretty well defined in the system.

 

 

Effectively what you want to do add a new rule to achieve a new metagame concept (i.e. changing the type of an attack mid-maneuver).

 

 

Now, there is a way you can quasi-do it. You can Multipower attack 3 attacks and combine it with Rapid Shot:

 

 

Rapid Shot group one, attack roll #1:

RKA 2d6-1, normal

RKA 2d6-1, silver

RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (since all three are simultaneous, the order does not matter)

 

followed by:

 

Rapid Shot group two, attack roll #2:

RKA 2d6-1, normal

RKA 2d6-1, silver

RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing

 

followed by:

 

Rapid Shot group three, attack roll #3:

RKA 2d6-1, normal

RKA 2d6-1, silver

RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing

 

 

But, you could not replace one of these with:

 

RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing

RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing

RKA 2d6-1, silver

 

And, either all 3 in a group hit, or they all miss.

 

Similar to what you want to do, but not exact. And, this type of solution will probably cost more than 60 Active points.

[Gideon]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

You might not find what you are looking for as far as RAW is concerned...

 

But, you cannot get blood from a stone. If the rules do not allow for what you want to do under the restrictions that you have laid out, then they do not allow it. You are treading into meta-rules here and those are pretty well defined in the system.

 

That is fine. If the answer to the question I possed is:

 

"You cannot do that under the rules RAW, and a 70 Active Point limit."

 

Then that is fine with me.

 

I possed the question because I couldn't come up with a solution and I know that people on these boards are smart, and many of them are better with Hero System than I am. So I wanted suggestions.

 

If there really is no way RAW to do this, then I will simply suck it up and build the gun as a standard Multipower. I don't NEED to be able to use multiple kinds of charges in a single phase, I WANT to be able to use multiple kinds of charges in a single phase.

 

Its not like it will ruin the character if I can't fire both lead and silver bullets in the same phase. Nor will it make the game less fun to play. It is just one of those things that it makes sense to be able to do, and if there is a way to build it I want to find it. (Without fudging anything)

 

Everyone who has posted has been very helpfull, and I am thanking everyone right now for trying to give me an answer to this question.

 

Thank you.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Take a look at this alternative:

 

Colt Peacemaker (alternate), all slots OAF (-1) - END=

11 1) RKA 2d6, 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0) (30 Active Points); Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) - END=[6]

5 2) Armor Piercing Bullets: Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA (15 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only 1/4 of the Bullets fired are AP ; -1) - END=1

3 3) Silver Bullets: Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Silver Bullets; +1/4) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA (7 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only about 1/3 of the Bullets fired are Silver ; -1/2) - END=1

 

I believe this meets all your basic criteria.

 

The main changes are that ALL the different bullets now do 2d6K standard. The 2nd and 3rd 'slots' are just Naked Advantages on this basic attack. Also, you only have 8 total clips instead of 10. Hero Designer does not give the option for 10, only 8 or 32 when assigning 6 charges. You can always pay for 32 and call it 10 however.

 

Comments?

 

edit...

 

here's a more conservative version:

 

Colt Peacemaker (alternate), all slots OAF (-1) [Notes: Limitations on Armor Piercing and Silver Bullets could be represented by 2 and 4 clips of 6 charges respectively for the same cost.] - END=

11 1) RKA 2d6, 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0) (30 Active Points); Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) - END=[6]

9 2) Armor Piercing Bullets: Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only 1/4 of the Bullets fired are AP ; -1/2) - END=0

4 3) Silver Bullets: Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Silver Bullets; +1/4) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only about 1/3 of the Bullets fired are Silver ; -1/4) - END=0

 

Interrestingly, this is the cheapest build yet at 24 real and 62 active points.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Take a look at this alternative:

 

Colt Peacemaker (alternate), all slots OAF (-1) - END=

11 1) RKA 2d6, 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0) (30 Active Points); Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) - END=[6]

5 2) Armor Piercing Bullets: Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA (15 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only 1/4 of the Bullets fired are AP ; -1) - END=1

3 3) Silver Bullets: Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Silver Bullets; +1/4) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA (7 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only about 1/3 of the Bullets fired are Silver ; -1/2) - END=1

 

I believe this meets all your basic criteria.

 

The main changes are that ALL the different bullets now do 2d6K standard. The 2nd and 3rd 'slots' are just Naked Advantages on this basic attack. Also, you only have 8 total clips instead of 10. Hero Designer does not give the option for 10, only 8 or 32 when assigning 6 charges. You can always pay for 32 and call it 10 however.

 

Comments?

 

edit...

 

here's a more conservative version:

 

Colt Peacemaker (alternate), all slots OAF (-1) [Notes: Limitations on Armor Piercing and Silver Bullets could be represented by 2 and 4 clips of 6 charges respectively for the same cost.] - END=

11 1) RKA 2d6, 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0) (30 Active Points); Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) - END=[6]

9 2) Armor Piercing Bullets: Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only 1/4 of the Bullets fired are AP ; -1/2) - END=0

4 3) Silver Bullets: Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Silver Bullets; +1/4) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only about 1/3 of the Bullets fired are Silver ; -1/4) - END=0

 

Interrestingly, this is the cheapest build yet at 24 real and 62 active points.

 

Hyperman is onto sumthin' here.

Build gun:

2d6 RKA 8 Clips of 6 charges, OAF (leaving off all extraneous flavor Limitations for simplicity)

This gives you the Plain Lead slugs.

 

Add Variable Advantage (Preselected group of up to +1/2 advantages) (+3/4)

and Variable SFX (+1/4) with a limitation to reflect that you have to "preset" the order of slugs in the cylinder.

Call it "Advantage & SFX set at time of loading cylinder" (probably can get at least a -1/2 Limited Power limitation out of that), and perhaps add a -0 "Extra time +1/2 phase to change a particular chambered round to a different round"

Leaves the total build at 60 AP, inside your limit.

 

Under such a build, I expect even the most hardassed GM would allow you to build in Limitations to the bullets for free as long as you don't want any points back, so you should still be able to have a mostly subdual round (+2 Stun, Reduced Penetration, or Stun Only if your GM doesn't cry foul...nothing illegal, but a lot of GM's dislike No Stun Killing attacks)

 

It's not perfect, as shifting Variables in a single attack is normally also verbotten. I thought about dropping on a Trigger but it seemed overdone, as that would make the following attacks essentially "free" actions (I also don't have 5ER, however.. if there is a trigger that activates a 0 phase action for you it could be used to simulate the loading different rounds rather well). It might, however, being the only way of pulling it off. Have you inquired as to why your GM is so rabid against MPA's? And more importantly... if he's not allowing MPA's, is he allowing Linked Attacks (essentially nothing more than a Limited form of MPA). This could probabaly be built as a cascading set of linked attacks as was suggested above, but it gets kinda silly.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Take a look at this alternative:

 

Colt Peacemaker (alternate), all slots OAF (-1) - END=

11 1) RKA 2d6, 8 clips of 6 Charges (+0) (30 Active Points); Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) - END=[6]

5 2) Armor Piercing Bullets: Armor Piercing (+1/2) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA (15 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only 1/4 of the Bullets fired are AP ; -1) - END=1

3 3) Silver Bullets: Variable Special Effects (Limited Group of SFX; Silver Bullets; +1/4) for up to 30 Active Points of RKA (7 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only about 1/3 of the Bullets fired are Silver ; -1/2) - END=1

 

I believe this meets all your basic criteria.

 

You are almost there, but it doesn't quite meet the criteria. He cannot fire the normal bullets and the armor piercing ones and the silver ones in an order as desired.

 

And why exactly do these extra slots use Endurance? They should be made 0 End.

 

Also, the AP and Silver bullets should be linked advantages to slot #1. If you do that, you could have the Linked advantages work or not work as desired (i.e. limited off each other, one cannot be done while the other is done) and they can all be linked as the same power.

 

Make both the Silver and the AP each a legal fraction of the 8 charges per clip (i.e. 1/3rd of 8 does not work real well). For example, 1/4 AP and 1/4 Silver. He could then fire off 4 standard, 2 silver, and 2 AP in any order he wants in a phase. However, he would have to keep track of how many of each from each clip he fired. To get a third AP bullet, he would have to "change clips".

 

Once you have this working as a single attack power (i.e. the linked raw advantages are part of that single power), then you meet his criteria.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

You are almost there, but it doesn't quite meet the criteria. He cannot fire the normal bullets and the armor piercing ones and the silver ones in an order as desired.

 

And why exactly do these extra slots use Endurance? They should be made 0 End.

 

Also, the AP and Silver bullets should be linked advantages to slot #1. If you do that, you could have the Linked advantages work or not work as desired (i.e. limited off each other, one cannot be done while the other is done) and they can all be linked as the same power.

 

Make both the Silver and the AP each a legal fraction of the 8 charges per clip (i.e. 1/3rd of 8 does not work real well). For example, 1/4 AP and 1/4 Silver. He could then fire off 4 standard, 2 silver, and 2 AP in any order he wants in a phase. However, he would have to keep track of how many of each from each clip he fired. To get a third AP bullet, he would have to "change clips".

 

Once you have this working as a single attack power (i.e. the linked raw advantages are part of that single power), then you meet his criteria.

 

 

See the 2nd build in same post.

 

Linked is a Limitation not an Advantage and therefore not required to make this work.

 

As built, the player can say that all the bullets are distrubuted proportionately among all the clips. Each clip of 6 charges could typically have 3 normal, 2 Silver and 1 AP bullet.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

See the 2nd build in same post.

 

Linked is a Limitation not an Advantage and therefore not required to make this work.

 

As built, the player can say that all the bullets are distrubuted proportionately among all the clips. Each clip of 6 charges could typically have 3 normal, 2 Silver and 1 AP bullet.

 

Linked can be put on raw Advantages.

 

The idea is to put in something that forces it to be: 3 normal, 2 silver, and 1 AP in every single clip. Something that forces one advantage or the other to be working or not working as desired and as the power is used each time, but to still have it be a single attack power with every advantage intact every time.

 

As written, it is "choose an advantage" which makes each attack use different powers and is not really RAW legal. Nothing in your build actually specifies that all advantages are always being used, but not all of the advantages actually work with the power every time (the implication is there, but it is not spelled out). The power has to be AP and Silver every single time it is fired, but sometimes the AP part of it does not work and sometimes, the Silver part of it does not work. But, they always are part of the advantages of the power.

 

Like I said, you are close. But, you are not yet there. Linked can be used to close that gap. Maybe Linked is not needed, but as written, the use of the power as a single power is not crystal clear.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

Linked can be put on raw Advantages.

 

The idea is to put in something that forces it to be: 3 normal, 2 silver, and 1 AP in every single clip. Something that forces one advantage or the other to be working or not working as desired and as the power is used each time, but to still have it be a single attack power with every advantage intact every time.

 

As written, it is "choose an advantage" which makes each attack use different powers and is not really RAW legal. Nothing in your build actually specifies that all advantages are always being used, but not all of the advantages actually work with the power every time (the implication is there, but it is not spelled out). The power has to be AP and Silver every single time it is fired, but sometimes the AP part of it does not work and sometimes, the Silver part of it does not work. But, they always are part of the advantages of the power.

 

Like I said, you are close. But, you are not yet there. Linked can be used to close that gap. Maybe Linked is not needed, but as written, the use of the power as a single power is not crystal clear.

 

 

It might be worth hearing back from Gideon about Linked attacks in the campaign.... as I pointed out, Linked on Attack powers is really just a limited form of MPA (hence why they included MPA's, to clarify this fact).

 

A really slippery, but legal, way to do it would be as a VA, VSFX (like I mentioned above) Triggered RKA with some custom limits on the Trigger (like "Activating the first triggered attack in any phase requires a 1/2 phase Attack Action" and "Can only hold 6 preset triggers, and triggers are discharged in listed order from selected shot fired"), OAF gun, boatload of charges as 1 shot clips (essentially a bullet belt), a limit that the loadout of charges must be predefined at loadout, and changed only in specific circumstances.

 

That way, you load up your bullet belt before heading out on the range. You can "prepare" up to 6 Triggered attacks ahead of time. List the order the Triggered attacks are set up in. On any phase, the character can take a 1/2 phase attack action (because of the Limit, rather than the 0 phase the Trigger would normally allow) to shoot one of the Triggered attacks. He can thenn, as 0 phase actions, "fan" as many of the other triggered attacks as he wants, as long as he follows the order they were set up in.

 

It's clunky, but I think it works.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the best way to build this?

 

It might be worth hearing back from Gideon about Linked attacks in the campaign.... as I pointed out, Linked on Attack powers is really just a limited form of MPA (hence why they included MPA's, to clarify this fact).

 

A really slippery, but legal, way to do it would be as a VA, VSFX (like I mentioned above) Triggered RKA with some custom limits on the Trigger (like "Activating the first triggered attack in any phase requires a 1/2 phase Attack Action" and "Can only hold 6 preset triggers, and triggers are discharged in listed order from selected shot fired"), OAF gun, boatload of charges as 1 shot clips (essentially a bullet belt), a limit that the loadout of charges must be predefined at loadout, and changed only in specific circumstances.

 

That way, you load up your bullet belt before heading out on the range. You can "prepare" up to 6 Triggered attacks ahead of time. List the order the Triggered attacks are set up in. On any phase, the character can take a 1/2 phase attack action (because of the Limit, rather than the 0 phase the Trigger would normally allow) to shoot one of the Triggered attacks. He can thenn, as 0 phase actions, "fan" as many of the other triggered attacks as he wants, as long as he follows the order they were set up in.

 

It's clunky, but I think it works.

 

There are other rules issues with using Variable Advantage in this case. Whatever level of VA is purchased must be assigned in some way each time the attack is used. What do you assign the (+1/2) to when not using AP?

 

The Trigger approach is appealing if total control of which type of bullet is fired in what order were an issue (as it would be with the clip of a semi-auto) but I don't believe Gideon stated that this was that important since the firing order of bullets in a Revolver can easily be changed.

 

At this point I am not as concerned with "stating the absolutely perfect description" of the limitations used to represent this construct as I am with getting a fair cost for its utility. Note, my latest build addresses ALL the percieved rules hurdles AND is even CHEAPER than the 'list' method I proposed earlier even though the attack value for all bullets were increased to 2d6. I think a reasonable GM should allow the build to work as stated "in English" per Gideons first post to this thread via either the 'list' or 'naked' methods for something between 24-30 points.