Help with Psychic Sword

[Ghostblade]

I am trying to create a psychic sword which is defined as an Ego Attack with the No Range limitation. I think that the attack should be based on the character's standard CV rather than his ECV. I'm looking for a power modifier that would allow this. If such a power modifier has been defined somewhere then, great, please tell me about it. If not, I could use some guidance on how to define it. It seems as though it should be a power limitation, but how much should it be worth? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

5ER page 121 suggests using the Requires A Skill Roll Limitation for this effect, with the required roll being a DEX Roll or an Attack Roll.

[Ghostblade]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Thanks, Derek.

 

That's an interesting approach. Is there anything on this topic in the Ultimate Mentalist (I haven't picked it up yet)? It seems like this limitation is pretty much the opposite of the BOECV power advantage, so I'm surprised that there's nothing more on it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I don't have my copy of The Ultimate Mentalist with me right now, so I can't check it. But I know it discusses the option above in a bit more detail. Whether it also makes alternative suggestions, I'm not sure.

[Ghostblade]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I appreciate you taking the time out to help me, Derek.

[Silbeg]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I don't have my copy of The Ultimate Mentalist with me right now' date=' so I can't check it. But I know it discusses the option above in a bit more detail. Whether it also makes alternative suggestions, I'm not sure.[/quote']

 

It for sure does... there are several pages on switching the characteristic on which combat is calculated. I believe in this case it would be a +1/4 advantage, but I cannot recall right now (and don't have the book in front of me).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I'll have to check out those Modifiers in Ultimate Mentalist...

 

When I made a character with a similar power back in 4th Edition I wrote it up using the plain BOECV and put in the notes it used OCV vs the target's DECV and Mental Defense subtracted from the effect roll. The attacker still had to be physically accurate, but it didn't matter how the target physically avoided the attack. The target had to actually will himself not to get hit (it was the SFX). I don't know if that's similar to the effect you are going for, but it's what I used.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

there must be something i'm missing, but why couldn't it be a hand attack with BOECV and STR doesn't add?

[Checkmate]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Roy,

BOECV uses ECV and DECV not OCV DCV as Ghostblade wants.

 

The best, most "legal" way of doing what you want is, Attack vs. Limited Defense with the defense being EGO Defense.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

The best' date=' most "legal" way of doing what you want is, Attack vs. Limited Defense with the defense being EGO Defense.[/quote']Or, for those of us who have moved on past the 3rd Edition, that defense would be "Mental Defense."

 

Yes, AVLD would give the same result. But I've always thought AVLD vs. Mental Defense was a pretty raw deal for the cost. You're paying more than for Ego Attack, when in practice, it usually isn't going to be as useful.

[Gideon]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Yes' date=' AVLD would give the same result. But I've always thought AVLD vs. Mental Defense was a pretty raw deal for the cost. You're paying more than for Ego Attack, when in practice, it usually isn't going to be as useful.[/quote']

 

I don't understand what you mean.

 

A 5d6 Ego Attack is 50 Active Points.

 

A 5d6 AVLD Energy Blast is 56 Active Points.

 

Ego Attack follows the rules for "Classes of Minds", and therefor if may not be able to effect everyone who is attacked.

 

AVLD Energy Blast (even when bought against Mental Defense) does not follow the rules for "Classes of Minds", so it effects humans, animals, aliens and robots alike.

 

In fact if your mentalist can only effect human class minds, and you wanted the AVLD Engergy Blast "psychic sword" to likewise only effect creatures with human class minds the power won't cost more than the basic Ego Attack.

 

If having an Ego attack be based on OCV and DCV instead of ECV and DECV is a -1/2 limitation, and each class of mind which grants immunity to the AVLD EB is a -1/4 limitation; the powers are identical in real cost (and the AVLD is only 6 points more expeisive in active cost).

 

5d6 Ego Attack, Zero Range (-1/2), Based on OCV (-1/2); 50 active points, 25 real points

 

5d6 Energy Blast, AVLD (+1 1/2), Zero Range (-1/2), Does not Effect Animal Class of Mind (-1/4), Does not Effect Alien Class of Mind (-1/4), Does not Effect Machine Class of Mind (-1/4); 56 active points, 25 real points

 

The math stays the same regardless of how many dice, as long as all three classes of minds are worth -1/4 each and Based on OCV is a -1/2 limitation.

 

So please explain why you say that in practice, an AVLD EB isn't going to be as useful as an Ego Blast?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

So please explain why you say that in practice' date=' an AVLD EB isn't going to be as useful as an Ego Blast?[/quote']I don't think the classes of minds issue is as significant as you seem to. Machines usually lack STUN anyway, so a STUN-only attack isn't going to work against them regardless. And I think losing traits like line-of-sight targeting (generally, not in this specific example), the "invisibility" of Mental Powers, and the free Mental Awareness, more than offset not working against animals or aliens.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

On AVLD v EGO ATTACK ()

 

4d6 AVLD Ego Defence (I liked third edition) = 20 x 2.5 = 50 points

 

4d6 EGO ATTACK = 40 points

 

The classes of mind thing tends to get largely ignored in our games but it is a very valid system consideration.

 

On the face of it though, for most purposes you are paying more for the AVLD. The difference is in how you hit: CV or ECV. Advantages and disadvantages both ways: call that a wash. Generally mental attacks have superior range, but you can't hit anything you can't see: usually not a problem as you can't shoot most attacks through intervening objects, especially ones that do Body, so the EGO ATTACK wins out here. Mind you in the instant case, we will be 'no ranging' the construct so that is not a worry either.

 

Now the bonus with AVLD comes in the synergy of advantages.

 

For instance, if I wanted 0 END, the costs would be 60 points for either option, so the cost has levelled.

 

If I wanted Does Body, then the costs would be:

 

4d6 AVLD Does Body: 20 x 3.5 = 70 points

 

4d6 EGO ATTCK: 40 x 2 = 80 points

 

So the AVLD starts to look a better option, cost wise.

 

Mind you it all depends what you want.

 

In this instance I understand that we want a sword that is used like a normal sword, but does damage against ego defence (I assume that the label Ego Defence was changed to prevent confusion with the abbreviations for Energy Defence)

 

So, sword that you use normally sounds like a HKA to me. OAF.

 

If penetration depth is a consideration then you should be able to add strength, if not you shouldn't - matter for you. I'm going to assume you do.

 

1d6 HKA, AVLD, 0 END (it is light) costs 45 points. You can add 1 DC of damage for each 12.5 STR you use.

 

Assuming you have at least 37 STR to add you can do a 2d6 KA that you target using CV, that can be blocked and parried normally and that does damage against mental defence (but no Body).

 

Cost in an OAF is 22 points real, 45 active (or 82 active if you factor in the STR), and you are getting 6 DCs of damage.

 

Build it with EGO ATTACK, you need to start with 6d6 for your 6DCs, then add 0 END (arguably just to half of it as you'd still be paying for END the STR used above) so a cost of 90 (or 75 if 0 END on half).

 

Add in OAF, no range and something for 'works against CV not ECV' EITHER -0, -14 or -1/2 and you get:

 

90 point version

 

-0 36 points

-1/4 33 points

-1/2 30 points

 

75 point version

 

-0 30 points

-1/4 27 points

-1/2 25 points

 

So for a similar result you have a higher cost with the EGO ATTACK based version.

 

Moreover, if you'd built the AVLD on Hand to Hand Attack it would be cheaper yet.

 

Of course if you'd built it as a 6d6 EB with AVLD and 0 END the cost would have been 90 active, so teh final cost of the two constructs would have been identical in any event.

 

So, which one catches your eye, good sir?

 

Oh, forgot: the problem of a mental attack in an obvious focus is that it prevents you taking advantage of the 'visible' limitation: you might want to build the thing as visible and physical manifestation rather than focus - more expensive, but I'm just refining the conceptr here

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I don't think the classes of minds issue is as significant as you seem to. Machines usually lack STUN anyway' date=' so a STUN-only attack isn't going to work against them regardless. And I think losing traits like line-of-sight targeting (generally, not in this specific example), the "invisibility" of Mental Powers, and the free Mental Awareness, more than offset not working against animals or aliens.[/quote']

 

This made me think of a point I've been considering for some time: whilst I can understand WHY we do it, I'm not sure we SHOULD give away free senses with mental powers. I mean, if you want to buy a mental power it makes sense that you can 'see' the mind you are aiming at (although, if memory serves, mental awareness detect mental powers, not minds). We don't feel the need to give away a free sense with 'Find Weakness' do we?

 

The specific problem is building a power that DOESN'T grant mental awareness: hardly worth a limitation, but worth something, surely? How do we build that, and make it all make sense?

 

Also, if you allow drains verses bought senses, what does the drain target? The free sense or the power that grants it?

 

Anyway, that's what I think...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

On AVLD v EGO ATTACK ()

 

4d6 AVLD Ego Defence (I liked third edition) = 20 x 2.5 = 50 points

 

4d6 EGO ATTACK = 40 points

 

4d6 EB BOECV = 40 Points. This gets to work against the greater of EGO and Mental Defense (choose your own edition!) and attacks using ECV instead of Dex based CV.

 

The classes of mind thing tends to get largely ignored in our games but it is a very valid system consideration.

 

I agree with both points. I've never liked the "classes of mind" rules - what's an "Alien" and why don't Alien PC's qualify for the label? How is it equally useful to have an Ego Blast that affects Humans (pretty much all my opponents) or one that affects Animals (virtually none of my opponents)? How many mentalists in the comics are able to affect both humans and other classes of minds (eg. animals) vs how many can affect humans but not other classes of minds? Of those that only affect a single class, it's normally a subset of animals anyway, not the entire class, so "animals only" seems a lesser limitation, and not an equivalent, based on the source material.

 

Anyway, that's pretty off topic.

 

On the face of it though' date=' for most purposes you are paying more for the AVLD. The difference is in how you hit: CV or ECV. Advantages and disadvantages both ways: call that a wash.[/quote']

 

 

I agree it's a wash. However, if we assume AVLD and BOECV are priced correctly, it looks like it's actually a limitation, since switching to Mental Ego Defense with AVLD costs more than switching to both Ego Mental Defense and changing CV's (and getting LOS IIRC) with BoECV.

 

Generally mental attacks have superior range' date=' but you can't hit anything you can't see: usually not a problem as you can't shoot most attacks through intervening objects, especially ones that do Body, so the EGO ATTACK wins out here. Mind you in the instant case, we will be 'no ranging' the construct so that is not a worry either.[/quote']

 

Even when you can't see for other reasons, your OCV is generally shot with a non-ECV attack. LOS Range is a +1/2 advantage on its own, so I think this indicates the Ego Blast or BOECV EB holds the advantage.

 

The Ego Blast (but neither of the advantaged EB's) gets Invisibility to two sense groups as well.

 

Now the bonus with AVLD comes in the synergy of advantages.

 

So does BOECV.

 

For instance' date=' if I wanted 0 END, the costs would be 60 points for either option, so the cost has levelled.[/quote']

 

Only 50 points for tbe BOECV attack. And I might get a limitation for "targeted based on DEX", except if the GM shares our view that it's a wash.

 

If I wanted Does Body, then the costs would be:

 

4d6 AVLD Does Body: 20 x 3.5 = 70 points

 

4d6 EGO ATTCK: 40 x 2 = 80 points

 

4d6 EB BOECV Does BOD 20 x 3 = 60 points

 

So the AVLD starts to look a better option' date=' cost wise.[/quote']

 

Unless you compare it to BoECV.

 

In this instance I understand that we want a sword that is used like a normal sword' date=' but does damage against ego defence (I assume that the label Ego Defence was changed to prevent confusion with the abbreviations for Energy Defence)[/quote']

 

While I agree, it begs the question why Power Defense wasn't renamed Adjustment Defense, doesn't it?

 

1d6 HKA, AVLD, 0 END (it is light) costs 45 points. You can add 1 DC of damage for each 12.5 STR you use.

 

Assuming you have at least 37 STR to add you can do a 2d6 KA that you target using CV, that can be blocked and parried normally and that does damage against mental defence (but no Body).

 

Cost in an OAF is 22 points real, 45 active (or 82 active if you factor in the STR), and you are getting 6 DCs of damage.

 

Build it with EGO ATTACK, you need to start with 6d6 for your 6DCs, then add 0 END (arguably just to half of it as you'd still be paying for END the STR used above) so a cost of 90 (or 75 if 0 END on half).

 

Build it with BOECV and you buy 1d6 HKA, BOECV, 0 END (it is light) costs 37.5 points. You can add 1 DC of damage for each 10 STR you use. You reach 2d6 at a STR of 30.

 

Limitations ignored since this should be a wash (unless my GM buys the "Attacking with DEX is a limitation" argument).

 

So for a similar result you have a higher cost with the EGO ATTACK based version.

 

But less cost with BoECV.

 

Moreover' date=' if you'd built the AVLD on Hand to Hand Attack it would be cheaper yet.[/quote']

 

And BOECV cheaper still.

 

Of course if you'd built it as a 6d6 EB with AVLD and 0 END the cost would have been 90 active' date=' so teh final cost of the two constructs would have been identical in any event.[/quote']

 

BoECV would be cheaper.

 

So' date=' which one catches your eye, good sir?[/quote']

 

I'm gonna go with (brace yourself!) BoECV.

 

Oh' date=' forgot: the problem of a mental attack in an obvious focus is that it prevents you taking advantage of the 'visible' limitation: you might want to build the thing as visible and physical manifestation rather than focus - more expensive, but I'm just refining the conceptr here [/quote']

 

I'd have a similar problem with Visible combined with Physical Manifestation, since a Physical Manifestation would generally also be "obvious".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

This made me think of a point I've been considering for some time: whilst I can understand WHY we do it, I'm not sure we SHOULD give away free senses with mental powers. I mean, if you want to buy a mental power it makes sense that you can 'see' the mind you are aiming at (although, if memory serves, mental awareness detect mental powers, not minds). We don't feel the need to give away a free sense with 'Find Weakness' do we?

 

The specific problem is building a power that DOESN'T grant mental awareness: hardly worth a limitation, but worth something, surely? How do we build that, and make it all make sense?

 

Also, if you allow drains verses bought senses, what does the drain target? The free sense or the power that grants it?

 

Anyway, that's what I think...

 

I agree - there's no reason mental powers should come bundled with a 3 point sense. Shell out the 3 points or do without the sense. Taking a -1/4 limitation for giving back a 3 point ability makes no sense to me.

 

Plus, every mental power after the first should grant a rebate, since you don't get any more mental awareness with the additional powers. For that matter, the first DC grants mental awareness, so the rest of them aren't adding anything either.

 

Sure, mentalists should be able to perceive mental attacks as a general rule. They should also have higher Ego's as a general rule, and we don't give that away for free with mental powers. Martial artists should generally have high DEX and SPD, too.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

So, Hugh, had you considered BOECV?

 

You are quite right - that is an advantage which seems to have the edge over all the other options. i wonder whether it shouldn't just be removed in its current form and added back in as a specific advantage for entangle?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I think AVLD should have more been considered more carefully for its compatability with the various defense types. +1 1/2 is probably too expensive for the result, especially compared to other abilities that target Mental Defense. +1 seems more in the ballpark, given that BoECV is +1 (and grants some other benefits) and a Stun Drain costs 10 points per d6 (which recovers slower). Maybe a higher advantage should then be suggested if the defense is truly unusual, like Smell Flash Defense.

 

This would place the power as part of NND, stating that, where a defensive power is selected as the defense, the points of defense subtract directly from the STUN inflicted, rather than being an absoluet defense.

 

I'd also allow a swap between the "exotic" defenses as a -0 limitation, just like changing EB's from affecting PD to ED is -0.

[Gideon]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Sean Waters: Thank you for pointing out that I made a really stupid math error.

 

Hugh Neilson: Umm... I thought the O.P. didn't want to use BoECV, because he wanted to the power to be OCV VS DCV, and not ECV VS DECV, or even ECV VS DCV.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Good thing I happened to pack my copy of TUM with me.

 

Page 77 of TUM has listings for an optional "Alternate Combat Value" Power Modifier for Mental and non-Mental Powers. In a campaign where CV tends to be higher than ECV (as is the case in most superhero games), a Mental Power that uses OCV instead of OECV is a +1/4 Advantage, while one that attacks against DCV instead of DECV is a -1/4 Limitation. Where both of these are applied to the same Mental Power, I suppose one could either apply both Modifiers, or let them cancel each other out as a -0 Limitation (they have no effect other than what's used to determine CV).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I think AVLD should have more been considered more carefully for its compatability with the various defense types. +1 1/2 is probably too expensive for the result, especially compared to other abilities that target Mental Defense. +1 seems more in the ballpark, given that BoECV is +1 (and grants some other benefits) and a Stun Drain costs 10 points per d6 (which recovers slower). Maybe a higher advantage should then be suggested if the defense is truly unusual, like Smell Flash Defense.

 

This would place the power as part of NND, stating that, where a defensive power is selected as the defense, the points of defense subtract directly from the STUN inflicted, rather than being an absoluet defense.

 

I'd also allow a swap between the "exotic" defenses as a -0 limitation, just like changing EB's from affecting PD to ED is -0.

 

A ranged stun drain costs 15 points though, or 3 points MORE than a 1d6 EB AVLD (Power Defence, or AD, as we shall now call it )

 

 

At present AVLD seems to work against ANY flash defence equally, without considering that sight flash defence is far and away the most common. If someone wanted a really unusual Flash Defence, like the smell one you suggest I'd probably make them buy it as a NND, with other stuff, like wearing a helmet, or LS: Sealed breathing stopping it too.

 

Maybe I'm stingy (well, not maybe) but I'm thinking BOECV is too cheap and unnecessary for almost anything but entangle, rather than AVLD being too expensive.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

I've been toying with a house rule that rolls NND and AVLD into a single Advantage with two primary options. Either using a different defense power than what's normally used for the Power, or the presence of some Power or SFX as an absolute defense. The value would depend upon how common the defense is in the campaign. Maybe I'll call it Alternate Defense.

[Ghostblade]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Thanks to everyone for all of the great feedback!

 

 

I generally agree that EB 6d6 No Range; AVLD (Mental Defense) most closely approximates what I am trying to create, and this was my first impulse but I too was appalled by the cost differential between AVLD and BOECV! The only difference between these two options is that, with BOECV, you make your attack roll based on ECV, whereas with AVLD, you make your attack roll based on standard CV. Why in the world would that warrant an extra cost of +1/2 for AVLD versus BOECV? The problem with using BOECV, on the other hand, is that it seemed rather cludgy to buy a power advantage named "Base on Ego Combat Value" only to turn around and apply a limitation to it named

"Based on Combat Value". It just didn't feel right, and AVLD seemed too costly, so that is why I started looking at Ego Attack as another option.

 

 

I think I'm going to go with the -0 option from the Ultimate Mentalist. Thank you, Bob Greenwade.

[Ghostblade]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Double Post!!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with Psychic Sword

 

Maybe I'm stingy (well' date=' not maybe) but I'm thinking BOECV is too cheap and unnecessary for almost anything but entangle, rather than AVLD being too expensive.[/quote']

 

Except that an EB BOECV is effectively an Ego Blast, No Mental Awareness, Visible, so that would imply that the price of Ego Attack also needs to rise. Probably the other mental powers as well.