What is STUN?

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Like I said, I think the game mechanic in question needs a new name that doesn't contain any form of the word 'stun'.

 

Why, since it is intimately related to the stat STUN? When you take more STUN from a single attack than your CON stat, you are stunned. When you no longer have any STUN, you are unconscious. Are people seriously confused by this? Over the last 25 years I've played Hero with a wide variety of people who have had a wide range of experience with the system, and a wide range of comfort with understanding rules in general. And until I started looking at these boards I had never heard of "Con Stunning", nor had it ever occured to me (nor to the best of my knowledge anyone I had every played with) that the term "stunned" was confusing.

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I think somebody's Psyche lim just got tripped.

 

Eh, not really. It just doesn't make any sense to me. One step past talking about "ATM Machines" or "NIC Cards".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Eh' date=' not really. It just doesn't make any sense to me. One step past talking about "ATM Machines" or "NIC Cards".[/quote']

 

or "Cable Modems".

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

or "Cable Modems".

 

Eh, that one I'll give a bit more leeway on. Though they certainly aren't modulator/demodulators.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Why' date=' since it is intimately related to the stat STUN? When you take more STUN from a single attack than your CON stat, you are stunned. When you no longer have any STUN, you are unconscious. Are people seriously confused by this? Over the last 25 years I've played Hero with a wide variety of people who have had a wide range of experience with the system, and a wide range of comfort with understanding rules in general. And until I started looking at these boards I had never heard of "Con Stunning", nor had it ever occured to me (nor to the best of my knowledge anyone I had every played with) that the term "stunned" was confusing.[/quote']

 

 

Well, my experience has been different. In the first HERO/Champions game I played in back in the early 80's the GM only 'casually' referred to the rules (what little there were of them back then). The stories were GREAT and everyone had a wonderful time but I really didn't get a chance to game with the 'real' rules until 4th Edition. Unfortunately, where I live there are plenty of gamers but those few that are familiar with AND willing to play HERO are still a rarity.

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Well' date=' my experience has been different. In the first HERO/Champions game I played in back in the early 80's the GM only 'casually' referred to the rules (what little there were of them back then). The stories were GREAT and everyone had a wonderful time but I really didn't get a chance to game with the 'real' rules until 4th Edition. Unfortunately, where I live there are plenty of gamers but those few that are [u']familiar with[/u] AND willing to play HERO are still a rarity.

 

I'm not sure I get the relavance of this to my question. Sorry if I'm being dense.

 

As I said, I've played with people with a wide variety of experience levels with the system. This includes introducing people to Hero, as well as introducing people to gaming in general via Hero. If any of them had a hard time with the difference between "stunned" and "unconscious" because both of them were related to the stat STUN in different ways and one of them includes the word "stun" within it, no one ever mentioned it.

 

Should I assume at this point that you know people that are confused by it?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

...Should I assume at this point that you know people that are confused by it?

 

Yes, I've known many.

 

re: "ATM Machines"

Several years ago I used to work in the ATM department at a local credit union and even the manager would sometimes call them that! Everyone likes to invent new words or Homer-ism's (Simpsons) occasionally.

 

I think it's just bad use of language. Similar to the missuse of the phrase "I could care less" when the speaker probably meant to say "I couldn't care less".

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Yes, I've known many.

 

Wow.

 

Out of curiosity, what confuses them about it?

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

RE: "ATM Machines": Why do drive through ATMs have braille dots on the buttons?

RE: "NIC Cards": Same thing in the Army, our ID is called a "CAC Card". Any guesses on what the second "C" stands for?

RE: "Cable Modems": Modulator/demodulator? Wow, it never even occured to me it was an abbreviation... did any of you know SCUBA is an acronym for Self Contained Underwater Breating Apparatus?

RE: "I could care less": I say this... but I follow up with "But not without pharmaceutical assistance."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Wow.

 

Out of curiosity, what confuses them about it?

 

Apathy. Reading the books for the character creation bits (if at all) and not much else.

 

To put it another way, I know no local gamer who has more than a third of the HERO products that I own. (I have between 80-90% of everything ever produced since the game first came out.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I just scanned the thread and did not see any mention of CON Stunning.

 

This mechanic simulates many of the shock or dazed effects already discussed. I think it's a rule that should get its own unique name like "Dazed" to better reflect this. That way, when a character loses ALL their STUN there is no confusion; they are Knocked Out.

 

You did not see it because there is no such thing as "CON Stunning". Go ahead and search the rulebook for it. It's not there.

 

There is something called Stunned though. And it has it's own name (Stunned).

 

Sorry, just a pet peeve.

 

I see archermoo has already sniped at you for this. thank you archermoo. And repped.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Sure there is.

 

END

 

END is STUN's little brother that everyone usually ignores.

 

A character can have a positive STUN value but be at 0 END. At that point the character literally IS 'Barely Conscious'. He can knock himself out by too much exertion alone!

 

Um... no it isn't. Do you start to stagger when you have 0 END? Do you take any penalties when at 0 END? Are you hampered in any way when you are at 0 END?

 

No. All it does is cause you to fall faster. You still shut off like a light switch when you go. Nothing gradual at all. One Phase you're up and going full strength, full CV and full power... the next you're face down in the asphalt.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I agree that you either are concious or you aren't' date=' but you can still express STUN as a scale, since "1 STUN above unconcious" is closer to unconcious than "150 STUN above unconcious". Saying it's a binary state is like saying the hours in the day are a meaningless measurement because it's either night or day, and never both at the same time. (Please don't bring up twilight, this is only an analogy. These aren't the droids you're looking for. ) Just because it's daytime, it's not a meaningless measure to say "It will be nighttime in four and a half hours."[/quote']

Going back to my original statement, I did not mean to imply the value of your STUN characteristic is meaningless, just that its value has no effect combat. As far as combat effectiveness is concerned, there is no difference between 1 and 150. The only difference is that if the target with 1 STUN takes 1 STUN, he turns off, but the target with 150 STUN does not.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

What does consciousness being a binary state (which is isn't in Hero) have to do with STUN being a measurement of how close you are to going from one state to the other? Being dead is pretty binary' date=' and Body is a mearurement of how close you are to transitioning between live and dead.[/quote']

 

There are (optional) rules for wounding and disabling that allow the loss of BODY to slowly degrade how the character can function over time. there are no rules (optional or otherwise) for STUN to do something similar.

 

I would like to see such a rule. Maybe you can say that at 10 STUN or less (well, any value from 1 to 10), you are Staggering. Staggering characters are at -2 to all CV and all Skill and PER Rolls.

 

We could then rename the 0 to -10 level Incapacitated. Incapacitated characters are at 0 CV, cannot perform any actions but are still aware of their surroundings (PER Rolls to notice events are still at -2). Incapacitated characters have an END of 0. Incapacitated characters regain their REC in STUN every Phase on Post Segment 12.

 

And then we have -11 to -20: Unconscious. Unconscious Characters are 0 CV, can take no actions are are completely unaware of their environment. Unconscious characters have an END of 0. Unconscious characters regain their REC in STUN on Post Segment 12 only.

 

-21 to -30: Deeply Unconscious. Deeply Unconscious characters are

0 CV, can take no actions are are completely unaware of their environment. Deeply Unconscious characters have an END of 0. Deeply Unconscious characters regain their REC in STUN once per minute.

 

-31 or more: Comatose. Comatose characters are

0 CV, can take no actions are are completely unaware of their environment. Comatose characters have an END of 0. Comatose characters regain their REC in STUN once per minute.

 

Of course, the only problem with this would be those characters that by their very design have a starting value of 10 or less for STUN. They kinda get screwed over. Probably why we don't have this kind of rule. I'd still like to see something that worked though.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Eh' date=' not really. It just doesn't make any sense to me. One step past talking about "ATM Machines" or "NIC Cards".[/quote']

 

And PIN Numbers...

 

[casualplayer]

Re: What is STUN?

 

STUN is the characteristic that makes HERO supreme. It allows for so much more nuance in combat than the rochambeau matches of Diablo and D&D.

 

STUN is the capacity to resist psychological trauma before entering a fugue state, where BODY is the capacity to resist physical trauma before entering a morgue. CON, amongst other things, represents the threshold for dealing with psychological trauma within a short time frame (1 segment.) Note that physical trauma usually is accompanied by psychological trauma.

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Of course, the only problem with this would be those characters that by their very design have a starting value of 10 or less for STUN. They kinda get screwed over. Probably why we don't have this kind of rule. I'd still like to see something that worked though.

 

Eh, just change it from 10 or less to x% of total.

 

Personally, I like the system as it is. If you take small enough hits, you can keep going until your body literally gives out. But if you take a large enough single shot, you get staggered.

 

And I generally role play (both PCs and NPCs) showing the effects of accumulating STUN damage. Just because it doesn't have a direct effect on combat-effectiveness doesn't mean that losing STUN has no effect until at negatives.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Eh' date=' just change it from 10 or less to x% of total.[/quote']

If it's changed to a %, then I want all the negative values changed to % as well (and also for the negative Characteristics stuff).

 

Personally, I like the system as it is. If you take small enough hits, you can keep going until your body literally gives out. But if you take a large enough single shot, you get staggered.

 

And I generally role play (both PCs and NPCs) showing the effects of accumulating STUN damage. Just because it doesn't have a direct effect on combat-effectiveness doesn't mean that losing STUN has no effect until at negatives.

Yeah, me too. No point in actually having a lower DCV is you can just act like you do.

 

Maybe include the following "rule":

 

At 10 or less STUN, your character looks dizzy/exhausted, but otherwise is not impaired in anyway.

[OddHat]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Yeah, me too. No point is actually having a lower DCV is you can just act like you do.

 

Maybe include the following "rule":

 

At 10 or less STUN, your character looks dizzy/exhausted, but otherwise is not impaired in anyway.

 

This is an area where the Impairing/Disabling rules can come in handy, especially if you expand them a bit to allow tricks like "stunning" a limb. You may be far from unconscious, but if your shoulder is popped out and you can't see out of one eye, your combat effectiveness will definitely suffer.

[Kenn]

Re: What is STUN?

 

The problem with ATMs and NICs is that, as a society, we've gone nuts for our TLAs.

 

TLA, by the way is a three-letter abbreviation for "Three Letter Abbreviation".

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Yeah, me too. No point in actually having a lower DCV is you can just act like you do.

 

Maybe include the following "rule":

 

At 10 or less STUN, your character looks dizzy/exhausted, but otherwise is not impaired in anyway.

 

If you think having a lower DCV is necessary when at low STUN use some form of the house rule you posted above. As I said, I don't.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

If you think having a lower DCV is necessary when at low STUN use some form of the house rule you posted above. As I said' date=' I don't.[/quote']

No, as I said, I prefer not to use such a rule, but I'd really like it if I had to option to use such a rule, and have that be an official rule which others may use. It's a consistency in design and use thing. Kinda like Normal Characteristic Maxima (at least for me). I don't use NCM, even in Heroic games, but I like that it's there for those who desire/need it for the way they run their games.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: What is STUN?

 

But a person down to their last few pips of STUN *does* appear/act differently than a person at full or mostly full. It isn't just a matter of SFX: breathing heavy, staggering, etc. Most characters are going to behave differently. If I started the combat at 150 STUN, and I'm now down to 1, I'm going to be very careful. I'm going to do a lot of dodging and blocking and diving for cover; I'm going to keep all my levels in DCV; I'm going to seriously consider Running Away. One's tactics should and usually will change in those circumstances from how they were at the beginning of the fight. And they don't need a Tactics roll to figure it out.

 

STUN is not just about conscious/unconscious. As others have pointed out, it's also about being Stunned. Say, I'll bet that's why they call it STUN!

 

Any explanation of what STUN *is* in RW terms has to include both of those aspects. In general, I consider STUN damage to be the representation of the physical sensation of the attack. The most typical physical sensation is pain, but it could be many other things. Stunning is caused when the physical sensation of a particular instant is overwhelming - it exceeds the character's CON. He is "stunned," "dazed," "staggered," "sent reeling," "seeing stars," or something like that.

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

No' date=' as I said, I prefer not to use such a rule, but I'd really like it if I had to option to use such a rule, and have that be an official rule which others may use. It's a consistency in design and use thing. Kinda like Normal Characteristic Maxima (at least for me). I don't use NCM, even in Heroic games, but I like that it's there for those who desire/need it for the way they run their games.[/quote']

 

Hmm. I guess I'm just unconcerned with it. It doesn't feel like a gap in the rules to me, and if someone else thinks it is they are certainly free to house rule past it. I'm not overly concerned with trying to make sure that everyone who feels the need to house rule it does so in a consistant manner.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Here's one take: the current Stun value is there to allow the GM and players to describe the apparent state of beatenupness of the player when compared to the normal total. The Body value serves a similar purpose.

 

Both are there to heighten tension and excitement in the game and have a profound effect when used appropriately as indicators for appropriate role playing. Whilst there is no real mechanical effect other than marking whether someone is conscious/unconscious or alive/dead, there may well be a substantial mechanical component created by, for instance, redistribution of skill levels, given that this could well be your last chance.

 

You should definitely be saying, in character, "I can't take another shot like that one...it is now or never!".