What is STUN?

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I think the difference with STUN is that everyone has it, and so I think there is a lot of justification to saying that, for the majority of characters, it is by and large the same thing.

 

I mean you could build a robot character where STUN is temporary disruption to electron flow caused by automatic systems diverting power to deal with low level trauma.

 

You could decide that for one character, STUN is pain, and for her brother, stun is accumulated minor damage, but it is out of character for him to feel pain.

 

I'm not suggesting that it should be any one thing and I'm not planning to criticise anyone's take on it. I just thought it would be useful to find out why it is important/useful to the game and if there is any concensus as to what it represents.

 

Totally realistic damage rules are not terribly desireable for most games: we a re pretty flimsy if the truth be known, and dealing with damage has nver been a particular forte of most fiction, not as far as the protagonists are concerned.

 

I like OddHat's take on the simplification of the rules, and IMO, Hero could benefit by having different mechanics to truly make it a toolkit: you can not only design any charcter, but the very game you are playing.

 

Personally I like the idea of extracting as much information from dice as you can, which is one of the reasons I always loved the Hero idea of using not only a dice total, but interrogating the individual dice for BODY totals as well: there is a lot of difference in HERO between:

 

4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4 and

6,6,6,6,2,2,2,2 to take an extreme example.

 

For the majority of characters I see stun as a combination of pain and minor damage, and that's not realistic. I mean you put a cigarette out on my arm and it hurts, and I've probably got no more than a normal compliment of stun, but even if you do it with the whole packet, I'm not likely to pass out. Howl a lot, but not pass out.

 

The injury AmadanNaBriona did himself the other day (those ankle manacles are real difficult to walk in, neh?) I would say could be an application of stun damage (head trauma can cause a lot of damage) or even just the stunning rules, but I do feel there is a real parallel between the mechanic and reality, even if it is not a perfect simulation.

 

I think the difference is that where SFX enters into STUN is via what powers are effecting it, not withing the stat itself. STUN is just a measure of how close you are to losing consciousness. I don't see it as being any more quantifyable than that. The STUN damage from a punch in the face does something different than the STUN damage from an Ego Blast.

 

And I agree that there is a parallel between the mechanic and reality. I just don't think there is any single set of physical effects that we can point to and say "This is what STUN represents". On the flip side, there are many physical effects that we can point to and say "This is an example of something that has done STUN damage".

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

One thing I've noticed mentioned by others here, but I must disagree with, is the notion STUN is a measure of how close someone is to unconsciousness, or how conscious someone is. Not so. It doesn't matter if you have a current STUN value of 1 or 100, you are just as conscious either way. It only matters if you are at negative STUN, or you are in that transitory state of being Stunned (which can happen at any value, negative infinity to infinity).

 

This is one thing that has always bugged me a little bit about Hero, but not enough to really do anything about. There simply is no mechanic for "barely conscious" or anything less than fully conscious but more than mostly unconscious.

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

...

There simply is no mechanic for "barely conscious" or anything less than fully conscious but more than mostly unconscious.

 

I think in most games this is simulated by players staying up for unwise periods of time the night prior to a play session refining existing characters, arguing rules in message boards, and worrying about the homework/errands/job responsibilities/angry wife they have disregarded as a result.

 

There may be no actual game mechanic for simulating a barely conscious state, but often a player can compensate for this with adequately poor planning in non-game related tasks.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I think in most games this is simulated by players staying up for unwise periods of time the night prior to a play session refining existing characters, arguing rules in message boards, and worrying about the homework/errands/job responsibilities/angry wife they have disregarded as a result.

 

There may be no actual game mechanic for simulating a barely conscious state, but often a player can compensate for this with adequately poor planning in non-game related tasks.

 

Perhaps you've noticed my mood...

 

 

/wants a "barely conscious" mood available.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I just scanned the thread and did not see any mention of CON Stunning.

 

This mechanic simulates many of the shock or dazed effects already discussed. I think it's a rule that should get its own unique name like "Dazed" to better reflect this. That way, when a character loses ALL their STUN there is no confusion; they are Knocked Out.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

One thing I've noticed mentioned by others here, but I must disagree with, is the notion STUN is a measure of how close someone is to unconsciousness, or how conscious someone is. Not so. It doesn't matter if you have a current STUN value of 1 or 100, you are just as conscious either way. It only matters if you are at negative STUN, or you are in that transitory state of being Stunned (which can happen at any value, negative infinity to infinity).

 

This is one thing that has always bugged me a little bit about Hero, but not enough to really do anything about. There simply is no mechanic for "barely conscious" or anything less than fully conscious but more than mostly unconscious.

 

Sure there is.

 

END

 

END is STUN's little brother that everyone usually ignores.

 

A character can have a positive STUN value but be at 0 END. At that point the character literally IS 'Barely Conscious'. He can knock himself out by too much exertion alone!

[Brainstorm]

Re: What is STUN?

 

What a cool discussion this is. As I was reviewing the thread, it occurs to me that people are right to point out that there are a huge variety of different phenomena that can inflict STUN damage. However, I do not believe it follows from this that STUN fails to be either useful or, for lack of a better term, "realistic."

 

The trick is not to fall into this "stun is how much of a beating you've taken" and view it more abstractly as a general state of mind. So we start from this game definition that STUN is a status indicator. The current STUN of a character informs us if that character is incapacitated by (typically) fleeting effects. The concussion of a brick to the noggin could be such an effect; but so could the disorientation caused by a vertigo-themed villain's EGO Attack, discomfort inflicted by a heat-based Energy Blast, or even the gagging prompted by being in the radius of a Side Effect defined as a emitting a staggeringly noxious odor.

 

So the STUN Characteristic is really a measure of how much ??? a character can take, where ??? is a broad set of phenomena. The unifying element is merely an ability to incapacitate without necessarily inflicting grave bodily harm. The complexities can be daunting. For example, a tear gas grenade could inflict STUN damage, yet robots have STUN and should be immune to the SFX of any conventionally defined "tear gas grenade" power. Yet that sort of complexity is misleading -- robot STUN and human STUN are both measures of ability to resist incapacitation. It remains an "apples to apples" comparison even though quirks of origin, SFX, etc. create variations in susceptibility to various forms of damage between humans and robots.

 

STUN becomes a little easier to get a grip on when thinking about how these phenomena can accumulate. Perhaps a given character could just shrug off getting struck by a club or getting stuck with a tranquilizer dart or being hit with an EGO attack, but the concussion plus the drug plus the bad psychic vibes together produce a debilitating state.

 

Also, be open minded about the roleplaying aspect of this. Negative STUN need not mean that a character is literally knocked out. Perhaps a character incapacitated by a magical swarm of insects is too busy swatting, screaming, and scratching to communicate or take other action. Perhaps a strong fear-based EGO Attack leaves a character paralyzed with terror, unable to speak or act. A cloud of poison gas could incapacitate a character by forcing him or her to do nothing but stagger and choke until sufficiently recovered from exposure.

 

Yes, in the end, STUN is a mechanic that serves the purpose of upholding game balance while also supporting non-lethal forms of combat. As I see it, STUN damage is a broad set of phenomena including pretty much anything with the capacity to take a character out of action on a temporary basis. By extension, the STUN Characteristic is a measure of a character's ability to resist being overwhelmed by trauma, including both the trauma of serious injury (Killing Attacks normally do inflict STUN damage) and the trauma of severe distress (i.e. anything else that inflicts STUN damage.)

 

Regards,

Brainstorm

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

What a cool discussion this is. As I was reviewing the thread' date=' it occurs to me that people are right to point out that there are a huge variety of different phenomena that can inflict STUN damage. However, I do not believe it follows from this that STUN fails to be either useful or, for lack of a better term, "realistic."[/quote']

 

I'm reading the above statement here like this:

1) People are pointing out examples of STUN damage.

2) You use the word "However", indicating you have a different point of view than these people do.

3) You say you don't think this proves the STUN mechanic isn't useful.

4) I infer the following:

5) You believe these examples are intended to show the STUN mechanic isn't useful.

 

Not trying to cause this to descend into a semantic arguement, but either you misrepresented your thoughts, or I misinterpreted them.

 

I don't think most people were pointing out these examples to disprove the applicability of the STUN mechanic to real life. (My example was intended to support the applicibility of the STUN mechanic) I can only speak for myself, but I think that was the intent of most of the folks posting these examples.

 

The trick is not to fall into this "stun is how much of a beating you've taken" and view it more abstractly as a general state of mind. So we start from this game definition that STUN is a status indicator. The current STUN of a character informs us if that character is incapacitated by (typically) fleeting effects. The concussion of a brick to the noggin could be such an effect; but so could the disorientation caused by a vertigo-themed villain's EGO Attack, discomfort inflicted by a heat-based Energy Blast, or even the gagging prompted by being in the radius of a Side Effect defined as a emitting a staggeringly noxious odor.

 

All good examples; I see STUN as a close mechanical approximation of a variety of "real life" effects. From what you're saying here you do as well.

 

So the STUN Characteristic is really a measure of how much ??? a character can take, where ??? is a broad set of phenomena. The unifying element is merely an ability to incapacitate without necessarily inflicting grave bodily harm. The complexities can be daunting. For example, a tear gas grenade could inflict STUN damage, yet robots have STUN and should be immune to the SFX of any conventionally defined "tear gas grenade" power. Yet that sort of complexity is misleading -- robot STUN and human STUN are both measures of ability to resist incapacitation. It remains an "apples to apples" comparison even though quirks of origin, SFX, etc. create variations in susceptibility to various forms of damage between humans and robots.

 

Yes, SFX can vary from one recipient of STUN damage to another. The reason I used shock as an example of STUN damage here is because shock is a temporary, debilitating condition that can lead to death if untreated. Shock can be caused my trauma, rapid change in environment, psychological stress, or any combination of these. Getting shot causes shock, but you can succumb to shock without having been shot. In other words-

 

You will experience shock if you are injured.

You will experience shock if the environmental and conditional norms around you change too dramatically or unexpectedly.

You will experience shock if you percieve either of the above to have happened to you

You will experience shock if psyhological stress or sensory overload overwhelm you when you are trying to perform at your normal capacity.

 

To me, this sounds almost exactly like STUN as reflected in the game mechanics.

 

The SFX can vary, but assuming the recipient of STUN is a living thing, it's subject to shock.

In your robot example, one must begin the more liberal application of "handwavium", since robots in combat isn't exactly an everyday occurance, so we have to estimate the effects of "nonlethal" combat effects directed against robots.

 

STUN becomes a little easier to get a grip on when thinking about how these phenomena can accumulate. Perhaps a given character could just shrug off getting struck by a club or getting stuck with a tranquilizer dart or being hit with an EGO attack, but the concussion plus the drug plus the bad psychic vibes together produce a debilitating state.

 

Yup. To me this makes sense as well. Combined unnatural stimulii are more debilitating than they would be individually... I'm sure in real life the effect is cumulative only in the vaguest sense, but most of the time we're still going to palatably reflect "reallity" Whether the 3 sources of STUN are 3 club blows or club/dart/EGO attack.

 

Also, be open minded about the roleplaying aspect of this. Negative STUN need not mean that a character is literally knocked out. Perhaps a character incapacitated by a magical swarm of insects is too busy swatting, screaming, and scratching to communicate or take other action. Perhaps a strong fear-based EGO Attack leaves a character paralyzed with terror, unable to speak or act. A cloud of poison gas could incapacitate a character by forcing him or her to do nothing but stagger and choke until sufficiently recovered from exposure.

 

I'm not really comfortable saying "Maybe he's not unconcious"... If I wanted to create a power that simulated "incapacitating cloud of gas" I could do it, and I wouldn't want to be limited by the idea that if my victim had STUN left he'd be capable of action.

 

Inversely, I expect a negative STUN score to reflect a loss of conciousness in all cases, since that's the intended effect of any attack or effect that reduces a targets' STUN to less than zero.

 

Maybe this is just another SFX arguement, but if you want to say the guy is swatting bugs to the exclusion of all other actions whether he likes it or not, I'd prefer to see the power written to reflect that intent rather than handwave it.

 

Yes, in the end, STUN is a mechanic that serves the purpose of upholding game balance while also supporting non-lethal forms of combat. As I see it, STUN damage is a broad set of phenomena including pretty much anything with the capacity to take a character out of action on a temporary basis.

 

Except as stated above, I can agree with this whole statement. The one caveat is to me STUN should reflect a scale of the threat of unconciousness and not "any state that renders one incapable of action"

 

By extension, the STUN Characteristic is a measure of a character's ability to resist being overwhelmed by trauma, including both the trauma of serious injury (Killing Attacks normally do inflict STUN damage) and the trauma of severe distress (i.e. anything else that inflicts STUN damage.)

 

Regards,

Brainstorm

 

I agree. Lethal combat also results in STUN, but that IMO this is consistent with the body's natural response to attacks that could be said to cause Body damage.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What is STUN?

 

You said it yourself, STUN can be used to represent a wide variety of things in game. But outside of the context of a specific example, STUN just represents how far from (or how close to) being unconscious a character is.

 

I can only come up with a more specific example of what STUN represents (or at least what STUN Damage represents) if I am given a specific power to base my analysis on.

 

I think Dust Raven answered that one effectively - it isn't how far or how close to, consciousness is a binary state in HERO - you are or you aren't.

 

In pure game terms, I agree with you. STUN is a mechanic that I can use to determine whether my character is able to actively influence the game.

 

In HERO terms, you say yourself that you need in game information on which to base your analysis and so STUN is more than simply whether your character is conscious or not. HERO asks you to look at how powers are used to determine what they represent, I think STUN (and other stats) have to accept that same philosophy.

 

 

Doc

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I think Dust Raven answered that one effectively - it isn't how far or how close to, consciousness is a binary state in HERO - you are or you aren't.

...

 

I agree that you either are concious or you aren't, but you can still express STUN as a scale, since "1 STUN above unconcious" is closer to unconcious than "150 STUN above unconcious". Saying it's a binary state is like saying the hours in the day are a meaningless measurement because it's either night or day, and never both at the same time. (Please don't bring up twilight, this is only an analogy. These aren't the droids you're looking for. ) Just because it's daytime, it's not a meaningless measure to say "It will be nighttime in four and a half hours."

[Sean Waters]

Re: What is STUN?

 

To my mind Hero does do 'almost unconscious', both in terms of low stun and the -10 to 0 range where you are technically conscious but unable to act. Oh, and also the Stunning and END rules, as has been noted.

 

I've played games before where I have not told players what damage they are taking, but described it: That blow really rocked you, you can't take too many more like that, or: The energy blast sears your shoulder and you feel, momentarily, as if the world is fading as the pain bursts through you, but you grit your teeth...for now.

 

I do agree that MECHANICALLY Hero does not differentiate between 1 STUN and 100 STUN, but I don't think that it is wrong to approach STUN as a measure of accumulated taruma that will eventually lead to unconsiousness. So, not a measure of consciousness, but certainly a measure of how close you are to unconsciousness, even at a mechanical level.

 

Can I also commend all contributors on a lively and interesting discussion.

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

...

Can I also commend all contributors on a lively and interesting discussion.

 

You may, if I can be allowed to state for the record that I like pie.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I do agree that MECHANICALLY Hero does not differentiate between 1 STUN and 100 STUN, but I don't think that it is wrong to approach STUN as a measure of accumulated taruma that will eventually lead to unconsiousness. So, not a measure of consciousness, but certainly a measure of how close you are to unconsciousness, even at a mechanical level.

 

Hmm. So how would you model the half way house, where you are in a state of semi-consciousness, able to act but not at full mental capacity?

 

Buy STUN limited by things like (1/2 OCV, -5 PER etc etc)???

 

 

Doc

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Hmm. So how would you model the half way house, where you are in a state of semi-consciousness, able to act but not at full mental capacity?

 

Buy STUN limited by things like (1/2 OCV, -5 PER etc etc)???

 

Doc

 

I think you could model this, but just because you only have half your STUN left wouldn't require it (unless that's how you want your game to work)

 

If you did want to simulate a degraded state prior to unconciousness, you could simply create a house rule that OCV/DCV, etc. are scaled down as you hit predetermined points on your "STUN bar"

 

GM: "You've taken 25% of your overall STUN. Don't forget that your CV's are now 1 level lower and you have to make an 14- EGO roll to push any of your powers."

 

This example has no game balance or thought put into it, I'm just using it to show how one could model it and to indicate that it'd (in my mind) simply be a house rule, not a shortcoming of the game as written that it's not in the rules already.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What is STUN?

 

If you did want to simulate a degraded state prior to unconciousness' date=' you could simply create a house rule that OCV/DCV, etc. are scaled down as you hit predetermined points on your "STUN bar"[/quote']

 

It'd be cheap STUN that'd possibly add to the drama of a fight. I wouldn't want it to be a lot of STUN and I'm not a great fan of the wound levels - you always seem to get caught in a vicious circle of losing.

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

It'd be cheap STUN that'd possibly add to the drama of a fight. I wouldn't want it to be a lot of STUN and I'm not a great fan of the wound levels - you always seem to get caught in a vicious circle of losing.

 

This is a matter of personal taste, I would probably choose to leave it out of most of my games unless the players dememded it.

I will say however in a lot of fights where two people are attempting to kill/incapacitate each other in real life, the first to strike a wounding blow is generally the winner. So the "vicious circle of losing" is pretty realistic. You can go either way... I for one don't particularly care for wound levels either.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

This is a matter of personal taste, I would probably choose to leave it out of most of my games unless the players dememded it.

I will say however in a lot of fights where two people are attempting to kill/incapacitate each other in real life, the first to strike a wounding blow is generally the winner. So the "vicious circle of losing" is pretty realistic. You can go either way... I for one don't particularly care for wound levels either.

 

An easier method to represent the same effect would be to buy CSL's with the Limitation Only usable when character has taken "X" combat damage. "X" could be anything, including "0". Once the character takes "X" damage he can't use those Levels.

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

An easier method to represent the same effect would be to buy CSL's with the Limitation Only usable when character has taken "X" combat damage. "X" could be anything' date=' including "0". Once the character takes "X" damage he can't use those Levels.[/quote']

 

If this were intended to be a universal game mechanic (at least for one GM and group of players) I think it'd be best expressed not as a real number damage score, but rather a percentage of their total BOD, STUN, or a combination of the two. That way your bricks have to take more damage to be reduced in effectiveness than your squishier characters.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

If this were intended to be a universal game mechanic (at least for one GM and group of players) I think it'd be best expressed not as a real number damage score' date=' but rather a percentage of their total BOD, STUN, or a combination of the two. That way your bricks have to take more damage to be reduced in effectiveness than your squishier characters.[/quote']

 

I wasn't suggesting that it be used as a 'universal game mechanic'. It's good for representing the light & agile fighters that don't lose their 'edge' until they take some damage (either STUN or BODY). This type of 'Freshness' bonus does not make sense for ALL character types, usually just only the finnesse ones. I would never push the concept on a player who doesn't want to bother with the extra record keeping.

 

The idea could easily be reversed as well:

 

CSL's Only usable AFTER character has taken "X" damage.

 

To represent the extra rush of adrenaline someone gets after fully realizing the fight is 'for real'.

[Reality Czech]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I wasn't suggesting that it be used as a 'universal game mechanic'. It's good for representing the light & agile fighters that don't lose their 'edge' until they take some damage (either STUN or BODY). This type of 'Freshness' bonus does not make sense for ALL character types, usually just only the finnesse ones. I would never push the concept on a player who doesn't want to bother with the extra record keeping.

 

The idea could easily be reversed as well:

 

CSL's Only usable AFTER character has taken "X" damage.

 

To represent the extra rush of adrenaline someone gets after fully realizing the fight is 'for real'.

 

Ahh, I was still thinking in terms of a "house rules" solution and assumed that's what you were proposing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What is STUN?

 

The problem is that for every character whose hand shakes when they are about to pass out, there is another who goes into baresark mode and seems to double their combat ability.

 

However, I think that either character can be built and you can make it a game requirement that you build 'em that way.

 

You could even do it with a disadvantage:

 

Physical disadvantage -1 on all rolls of each 25% damage taken (common, moderate 15 points).

 

Ever played HeroClix? The character's abilities change depending on their current level of injury. Some have their best abilities when they are fresh, others when they are battered. You can build that in Hero too (although I wouldn't, except ana thought experiment).

 

Because Hero uses a bell curve, the point alluded to re wound levels is very relevant: once you start losing you have lost.

 

I tell you what, though, I'd probably be willing to rule that when you are 0 to -10 you can take an action, so long as you make an EGO roll and take 1d6 NND stun damage. How's that? Or you can act normally but all rolls take a penalty equal to your negative stun?

 

You may' date=' if I can be allowed to state for the record that I like pie.[/quote']

 

Mmmmm. Pie.

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I just scanned the thread and did not see any mention of CON Stunning.

 

This mechanic simulates many of the shock or dazed effects already discussed. I think it's a rule that should get its own unique name like "Dazed" to better reflect this. That way, when a character loses ALL their STUN there is no confusion; they are Knocked Out.

 

Grr. CON Stun is a null term that is not defined in the system and has no meaning.

 

There is the characteristic STUN, which determines whether or not your character is conscious. There is also the game mechanic of being Stunned.

[archermoo]

Re: What is STUN?

 

I think Dust Raven answered that one effectively - it isn't how far or how close to, consciousness is a binary state in HERO - you are or you aren't.

 

In pure game terms, I agree with you. STUN is a mechanic that I can use to determine whether my character is able to actively influence the game.

 

In HERO terms, you say yourself that you need in game information on which to base your analysis and so STUN is more than simply whether your character is conscious or not. HERO asks you to look at how powers are used to determine what they represent, I think STUN (and other stats) have to accept that same philosophy.

 

 

Doc

 

What does consciousness being a binary state (which is isn't in Hero) have to do with STUN being a measurement of how close you are to going from one state to the other? Being dead is pretty binary, and Body is a mearurement of how close you are to transitioning between live and dead.

 

Yes, if you have 50 stun and have taken 49 of them, you are no less functional than when you were at full. If you are between 0 and -10 you are semi-conscious. Partially aware of your surroundings, but unable to act in a meaningful way. At -11 and less you are fully unconscious.

 

And yes, I said I would need in game information on which to base my analysis. But you seem to have missed what I was talking about analyzing. The source of the STUN damage, not the damage itself. Nor what STUN "means". As I said before, what it means is farily basic. Are you conscious or not. If you are at positive STUN, you are. If you are at negative you are either semi conscious or you are unconscious.

 

Why would one character have more STUN than another? Well, that then gets into characer and/or game world specifics. But the system itself doesn't define it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Grr. CON Stun is a null term that is not defined in the system and has no meaning.

 

There is the characteristic STUN, which determines whether or not your character is conscious. There is also the game mechanic of being Stunned.

 

Like I said, I think the game mechanic in question needs a new name that doesn't contain any form of the word 'stun'.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is STUN?

 

Grr. CON Stun is a null term that is not defined in the system and has no meaning.

 

There is the characteristic STUN, which determines whether or not your character is conscious. There is also the game mechanic of being Stunned.

 

I think somebody's Psyche lim just got tripped.