How to get swords on your starship

[Nyrath]

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3ab.html#amra

 

I found some ancient musings by L. Sprague de Camp and John Brunner on how to logically justify a planetary romance where the locals use high tech flying air cars and ray guns, but still prefer using swords and other low tech items.

[McCoy]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3ab.html#amra

 

I found some ancient musings by L. Sprague de Camp and John Brunner on how to logically justify a planetary romance where the locals use high tech flying air cars and ray guns, but still prefer using swords and other low tech items.

Easy explanation on ships and orbital habitats is that you DO NOT want a weapon that if you miss can make a hole and let the vacuum in. No lasers, no slug thowers.

 

Now if your civilization has phasers that can be locked on Stun and Nerve Disruptors, neither of which affect inanimate matter, these will be used, and the characters will grab their slug throwers and blasters as soon as they hit planetside.

[David Johnston]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Terror From the Deep taught me one way. Just give me an opponent who has armour that is impervious to my guns but not to my "vibro-blades". Not that it wasn't fun to spray a Lobster Man with the combined firepower of 10 heavily armed men (and a small tank) while screaming "It won't die! It just won't die!"

[Sundog]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I always liked Frank Herbert's solution - a defense field that will stop high-velocity objects, but allow low velocity penetration.

 

I've never really bought the "You can't use that in here!" argument, though. A) You could always use a low-penetration weapon (like a dart launcher with cyanide-tipped darts, say);

I've seen a well-swung cutlass chop halfway through a 2 by 4. Anything a 9mm could damage this would destroy;

C) Any engineer who built such weak stuff deserves to be forced to fly in it.

[Nyrath]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

A) You could always use a low-penetration weapon (like a dart launcher with cyanide-tipped darts' date=' say);[/quote']

 

Well, there is a problem with that:

 

Dr. Schilling said "And the target won't notice for the thirty seconds it takes the drug/poison to circulate through its system from the injection point. Unless you're a good enough shot to reliably hit one of the carotid arteries, don't expect anything but Pyrrhic victories here."

 

Thirty seconds is more than enough time for your assailant to kill you, cyanide dart or no.

 

More to the point is that a single bullet hole in the hull is going to take the better part of an hour before pressure loss is a problem. If you are that worried about hull punctures, take a tip from New York apartment dwellers and get a shotgun.

 

However, the original post was not about weapons one could use on a starship. It was about Planetary Romances like Burrough's Barsoom series, where people were using swords even though they had aircraft and radium rifles.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Thanks for psoting this. Sword-and-planet is still one of my favorite SF genres.

[feralucce]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I am not worried about letting the vacuum in... I am concerned about the thought of a rampant metal jacketed slug bouncing around free, possibly damaging lights, electronics hidden in the walls... a small short that turns into a fire, spreading slowly through the walls... in a place I cannot readily get out of..

 

"owever, the original post was not about weapons one could use on a starship. It was about Planetary Romances like Burrough's Barsoom series, where people were using swords even though they had aircraft and radium rifles."

 

I disagree... these are one in the same... start with the obvious and work your way out

[Spartan]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Hrm.. consider CQB. Soldiers, SWAT teams, etc typically carry combat knives.

 

A rifle's utility becomes severely lessened when the opponent is right next to you. A pistol is comparatively more viable, but due to the nature of how you employ a projectile weapon against a foe, it also experiences a depreciation in effectiveness.

 

The solution is combat knives. In CQB, a good combat knife in the right hands can be far more deadly than a gun.

 

Of course, that's combat knives. As to swords, while less maneuverable than a knife, they could still be viable in many situations. Another thing to consider are futuristic bladed weapons -- chainswords, monofilament blades, vibro blades, powerblades, whatever... These typically convey a few advandages over their more primitive brethren.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I always liked Frank Herbert's solution - a defense field that will stop high-velocity objects' date=' but allow low velocity penetration.[/quote']

And then you wear body armor to stop low velocity objects, and you're invulnerable, though if the field extends a bit from the body you can send a warhead through at low velocities and have it detonate on contact (options for this range from the shotgun shell 'bang stick' on up).

 

The big problem with swords is that, well, we can make armor that's basically sword-proof today.

[Spartan]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

The big problem with swords is that, well, we can make armor that's basically sword-proof today.

 

Consider that current protective gear does well at stopping lower-caliber fire. In the future one would presume that materials and techniques would be developed that reduce the majority of man-portable weaponry to non-fatal diffuse concussive force.

 

I guess that means you can't chop 'em, and you can't shoot 'em, so... time to break out the sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads!!

[FenrisUlf]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

The big problem with swords is that' date=' well, we can make armor that's basically sword-proof today.[/quote']

 

Will they be sword-proof against monowire blades?

[braincraft]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Just say that the only weapons that can overcome 'modern' defensive systems have a prohibitively short range, or are so rare/valuable that you can't afford to just shoot them off. Like duranthium-plate that can only be penetrated by a lightsaber or something, or an x-energy force field that can only be disrupted by an even larger pulse of x-energy... but x-energy, as we all know, dissipates almost instantly in atmosphere, so you have to get up realllll close to stick the emitter in.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

A thought on the development of various "powered" melee weapons...

 

At a certain material tech, it's gonna take special tools to work the materials. Much like Nivens law concerning Drive tech corrolating to Weapons tech, I imagine hand weapon tech probably directly corrolates to tool tech.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Will they be sword-proof against monowire blades?

 

Make the body armor out of woven monowire

 

I did always wonder why the Dune types didnt wear body armor. Or use lasers more (sure, it causes a huge explosion...just fire it by remote control)

 

Anyway, as to getting swords on your starship...

 

Have high energy weapons not function well or simply not function within the envelope created by a stardrive. Even one on 'standby'. The ship's own ship-to-ship weapons only work because they are in a fixed spatial relationship with the drive and are finely tuned to operate with it. The only places portable high energy weapons work would be on ships who's drive is shut down entirely, or on installations that dont have a star drive, or on planets and the like. If you want to make non-ship installations sword only, have the main power generating tech be related to the stardrive and exert a similar effect. If you want (civilized) planets to be that way too, either delcare the planet's power grid to be decentralized enough that there is always a generator/inhibitor around, or have the planetary authorities specifically place such generators around as a public safety measure. The only place man-portable high energy weapons are really usable is going to be on uncivilized/low tech planets. Of course, most civilized beings dont know much about how to use them, and even if they do, they probably dont have skill levels with them.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Make swords the weapon of "gentlemen" and a badge of higher social status; so "only barbarians or cowards use blasters in close combat." Guns may be more practical, but a sword has for centuries been the mark of nobility. Have people carrying swords be treated more favorably in many social situations.

 

If the blasters have some other fundamental disadvantage (such as a very limited number of shots or not working under certain fairly common circumstances) then the decision to carry steel instead of beam weapons will be self-evident.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I thought of that as well, but couldnt come up with a good rationale why criminals or aliens would stick to the swords. Social and/or cultural aspects dont matter much to people who are already social outcasts or outsiders to the culture.

 

Also... there is only an impact on one's social status for using a blaster if someone lives to tell about it. And a blaster should have a large enough advantage over a sword that the guy with the blaster almost always wins.

 

But it depends on the setting. If the genre says that even desperate pirates stick to the social customs, and all the aliens one is likely to meet are integrated into the mainstream society in this regard, then sure, why not.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I thought of that as well' date=' but couldnt come up with [b']a good rationale why criminals or aliens would stick to the swords[/b]. Social and/or cultural aspects dont matter much to people who are already social outcasts or outsiders to the culture.

 

Also... there is only an impact on one's social status for using a blaster if someone lives to tell about it. And a blaster should have a large enough advantage over a sword that the guy with the blaster almost always wins.

 

But it depends on the setting. If the genre says that even desperate pirates stick to the social customs, and all the aliens one is likely to meet are integrated into the mainstream society in this regard, then sure, why not.

 

We already have cities with firearms detection grids in place designed to triangulate the position of gunfire based on the reort. I could see such a system, expanded in scope with an increase in tech level, encouraging the criminal element to embrace hth weapons as a means to commit violence without immedately triggering an alert.

 

 

In general tho, cultural mores are going to be the main reason why an advanced culture retains melee weapons, I'm thinking.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I was thinking more of space criminals rather than planetary ones, but yeah, such a detection grid might work to make guns less common, assuming it couldnt be spoofed.

[austenandrews]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

The penalties could also be high. If gun crime = automatic death penalty, melee weapons are going to look a lot more appealing.

[Kaeto]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Well to quote R. A. Heinlien from his novel Glory Road. "If you close on a man with a sword who can use it, unless you also have a sword and can use it better than he can you end up spitted like a Thanksgiving Turkey."

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

The penalties could also be high. If gun crime = automatic death penalty' date=' melee weapons are going to look a lot more appealing.[/quote']

 

If you assume rational, calculating criminals, maybe. But most of them aren't. Either they don't think they will get caught (in which case : who cares what he penalty is!) or they aren't thinking of consequences at all. Once the criminal is cornered by the law, though, a strict gun=death law will encourage them to try to shoot their way out, I think.

[egaroadkill]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Make swords the weapon of "gentlemen" and a badge of higher social status; so "only barbarians cowards and use blasters in close combat." Guns may be more practical' date=' but a sword has for centuries been the mark of nobility. Have people carrying swords be treated more favorably in many social situations.[/quote']

This is the route I took in my space opera style campaign. Dueling is very much in vogue among the elite using sword or knife. The philosophy being that these weapons convey a greater sense of personal investment in ones opinion. Blasters are simply too impersonal, distant and overwhelming i.e. easy, for serious, personal differences.

As for battle, expect anyone worth anything to grab the nearest radio and call in the artillery, gang up, deceive or use whatever maximum firepower is available to win with minimal loss.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Oppressive interstellar government has outlawed guns and body armor to all but its military with the strictest penalties. Even police and security forces are limited to only hand weapons. A century of enforcement has mopped up most non-military sources of illegal weapons. Incidents involving these weapons are handled by the military who's attitude is “blast them from orbit, its the only way to make sure.” Over time, society's mindset has been shifted from the wild west attitude that people do not even consider the use of guns because they have from youth trained themselves in armed and unarmed martial arts for personal defense as a thing of culture.

 

As long as the GM resists the urge to introduce bad guys with guns, the players should feel they do not need them.

[Kaeto]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Oppressive interstellar government has outlawed guns and body armor to all but its military with the strictest penalties. Even police and security forces are limited to only hand weapons. A century of enforcement has mopped up most non-military sources of illegal weapons. Incidents involving these weapons are handled by the military who's attitude is “blast them from orbit, its the only way to make sure.” Over time, society's mindset has been shifted from the wild west attitude that people do not even consider the use of guns because they have from youth trained themselves in armed and unarmed martial arts for personal defense as a thing of culture.

 

As long as the GM resists the urge to introduce bad guys with guns, the players should feel they do not need them.

 

 

Not a Govt. I'd want to live under. If they infringe on some liberties they'd infringe on all.

 

Also with no firearms allowed what happens on the frontier planets where the critters haven't been tamed? Do people just let the meat eating animals chow down on them? Because just a knife or a sword isn't going to stop a pack of lions (or whatever equilvalent the world has ) from making the settlers into dinner.

 

And the military couldn't protect everyone. That would require too large of a military.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Not a Govt. I'd want to live under. If they infringe on some liberties they'd infringe on all.

 

Since we're talking fictional world - If it wasn't a liberty to begin within, nothing is being infringed upon. Given a long enough cultural timeline the removal of weapons from society could work.

 

Moving towards a middle ground; by your logic there's absolutely no reason a large enough urban population needs weapons like guns. The local police would be charged with taking care of any wild animals that wander into the population zone.

 

The frontier or sparsely populated areas may require liscenses, monitoring and other restrictions without strictly outlawing guns/blasters.