How to get swords on your starship

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

IRRC, the Borg had personal force fields that rendered phasers ineffective after a shot or two.

 

In regards to the Deathstalker series (i havent read it) : Again its the personal force field that selectively lets in muscle powered swords, but not anything ranged.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Yes, but how long could you live it the suit? Days? Weeks?

 

From when you're called to General Quarters to when you stand down from them, I'd say. I am making the assumption that the pirates are not going to be surprised when they go to board a ship, but instead will be fully geared up. Their victim will probably have time to go to General Quarters as well.

 

 

Just the thought makes me think boarding will not be a “normal” option and if it does happen we won’t be seeing anyone “blazing away” with guns.

 

I agree, if we're being 'gritty' then boarding would be unusual. A ship able to maneuver would pretty much be impossible to board without its cooperation. I don't agree that if a boarding does take place, that the boarders would prefer melee weapons. They may not use 'Super AP HoleBlower' rounds, but they would use range weapons. It might even be SOP to depressurize the ship during combat to reduce fire risk.

 

 

I'm probably being way too gritty/real world for an RPG. But Damage Control at sea is no laughing matter and in space it would be much much worse. Things that have little or no effect normally, take on deadly aspects in a confined space, let alone a airtight confined space.

 

True enough.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

In several ways, a boarding in space can be less risky than a boarding on a ship. Most notably, spaceships cannot sink once damaged.

 

Most boardings will occur under one of two conditions: the ship has surrendered, or the ship has been crippled. In the first case, the best way to prevent more damage to the ship is to immediately take out whoever started fighting -- which means either a gun or grappling. In the second case, preventing damage to a ship that's already been shot full of holes is a secondary concern.

[gewing]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I read somewhere that in true close combat the knife is superior to the handgun' date=' if fighting on ships, space stations or such includes a lot of melee than the Sword would or could a renaissance in this places, especially shortsword, seax and rapier, add to that that energy weapons need special energy cells because they´re designt not to work with niormal energy cells and swords don`t run out of ammo.[/quote']

 

 

Years ago I read an article in iirc "Black Belt" asking a number of Martial Arts experts their favorite martial arts weapon.

 

 

One bucked the trend, stating " Handgun." then explaining that if you incorporate it into your defensive skillset...

[Markdoc]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

One bucked the trend' date=' stating " Handgun." then explaining that if you incorporate it into your defensive skillset... [/quote']

 

Ninjutsu is an interpretive art

 

Seriously, though, any combat veteran can tell you that there is no better close HTH weapon than a handgun. Same size as a knife, and many times the damage potential.

 

cheers, Mark

[austenandrews]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

One bucked the trend' date=' stating " Handgun." then explaining that if you incorporate it into your defensive skillset... [/quote']

 

Heh, my old fencing instructor used to say the same thing. He always said no matter how good a swordsman you are, if someone comes at you with a real sword, smack it away with Parry 5 and run like hell!

[Spence]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

The problem with swords on board starships is that' date=' well, swords are fairly heavy and fairly bulky, so people aren't going to carry them unless they're quite effective weapons. A sword is both less convenient and less powerful than a pistol..[/quote']

 

Not really true, or to be more accurate. Only true with the correct selection. If you are comparing a 5 foot two handed sword to a 9mm Glock. True. But who in their right mind will be takeing a 5 foot weapon into cramped tunnel system? Which is effectively what spaces on a ship (excuding the holds) are. And who would, choosing firmarms, assualt with just a pistol. A short sword, such as a Gladuis is lighter and much more compact than a carbine/machine pistol/assault rifle/etc PLUS all the magazines you need. Once you add up all the manditory items gun, extra clips, harness to hold the gun and clips, you far exceed the weight and bulk of a short sword and scabbard.

 

Increasing effectiveness is much harder. The basic problem here is power -- an unpowered weapon is limited to the (rather low) power of the human arm, and a powered weapon is typically going to be ranged. Almost anything that improves unpowered weapons will also help out powered weapons. Things like powered armor help, but even then, you need all kinds of different muscle-analogs for a powered arm, so it's going to be a lot heavier than a single-purpose weapon..

 

Actually the problem is not power, it is space. Engaging in a fire fight in a 10x20 space with steel walls will mean you are getting wacked as much as the enemy by your own rounds. Plus the collateral effects of any ongoing fires, leaks lack of visabilty (once the lights are off the inside of a steelbox is dark and battlelanterns really dont give huge amount of light).

 

From when you're called to General Quarters to when you stand down from them' date=' I'd say. I am making the assumption that the pirates are not going to be surprised when they go to board a ship, but instead will be fully geared up. Their victim will probably have time to go to General Quarters as well..[/quote']

 

That is what most people think. But standing down from GQ doesn't have anything to do with cracking the seal of the suit. People die all the time from asphyxiation because the inhaled too much smoke during a fire. Many of these do everything right, staying low etc, but just do not have the time to escape. An this is in a “house” that when compared to any manner of spacegoing ship leaks like a sieve. People also die when they enter a tank or space with limited air flow from toxins/gases that build up. Which is why there are specialist that check confined spaces before workers are allowed to enter.

 

After a “firefight” in the confined spaces of a sealed metal box, before anyone can unseal the space you are in must be “certified safe” for visible and invisible toxins and gases. If there were fires or leaks in piping they have to be contained first. Even if you expose the space to vacuum to put out the fire, as soon as it exposed to air, there will be out gassing and/or smoldering unless you wait long enough for complete cool down, which by itself means more suit time.

 

Emergency fire suppression systems are sometimes deadly to you as well without protection. AFFF is not only corrosive but if you are covered with it will smother you. Many systems use specialized gases that are both “heavier than air” and oxygen displacers which will suffocate you in a heartbeat. If you get a lung full they can still kill you even if you get to a clear area because they are already in your lungs.

 

If you have a firefight inside the skin of a ship, and it is contested with a will, there will be leakage and most likely fires, unless it is decided very quickly and one side surrenders fairly fast. Once you have smoke/fumes they will get into the ventilation. Ventilation will have to be purged before those sections can breath freely.

 

All of this takes time. And once again, if it is a strange ship, it will be necessary to locate and unsecure/secure all of the fittings that were set when GQ sounded. A new crewman can take hours to find and set all of the valves and fittings when he is learning a new ship, even with a list. Trying to do it without a list and on a strange ship, will take a LONG time.

 

There is a good reason why Warship Crews are extensively drilled in damage control and Merchant Mariner Damage Control Ratings (don’t know the official term) are well respected and relied on.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

A short sword' date=' such as a Gladuis is lighter and much more compact than a carbine/machine pistol/assault rifle/etc PLUS all the magazines you need.[/quote']

A short sword is not lighter and more compact than a pistol, and the pistol is better than the short sword. Yes, a carbine is better than a pistol, but in any situation where you'd care about the compactness of a short sword vs a carbine, you'd still use a pistol instead.

Actually the problem is not power, it is space. Engaging in a fire fight in a 10x20 space with steel walls will mean you are getting wacked as much as the enemy by your own rounds.

Depends on the ammunition. If you're wearing body armor, no, not really; bullets may bounce off of walls, but they don't bounce at anything like full power or penetration.

[Sundog]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

A short sword is not lighter and more compact than a pistol, and the pistol is better than the short sword. Yes, a carbine is better than a pistol, but in any situation where you'd care about the compactness of a short sword vs a carbine, you'd still use a pistol instead.

 

Depends on the ammunition. If you're wearing body armor, no, not really; bullets may bounce off of walls, but they don't bounce at anything like full power or penetration.

 

Not to mention that you may be using something like THUNDERZAP rounds - high-impact pastic bullets that shatter if they hit a solid object.

[austenandrews]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

It's reasonable to assume that handguns for spacefaring combat will be designed for increased safety in that environment.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

It's reasonable to assume that handguns for spacefaring combat will be designed for increased safety in that environment.

Well, depends. One of the big problems with 'safe' handgun rounds is that any round with insufficient penetration to punch through walls also has insufficient penetration to disable a human.

[Sundog]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Well' date=' depends. One of the big problems with 'safe' handgun rounds is that any round with insufficient penetration to punch through walls also has insufficient penetration to disable a human.[/quote']

 

Not these days. The THUNDERZAPs I mentioned above are virtually harmless to machinery, but turn people into goo stew.

 

The less penetrating Glazer rounds ditto.

[Brother Jim]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

True. The safety rounds also suck at penetrating armor.

[Outsider]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

If your opponent is wearing armor made of modern/trans-modern materials, then a gladius will probably have difficulty hurting him also.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Not these days. The THUNDERZAPs I mentioned above are virtually harmless to machinery, but turn people into goo stew.

 

The less penetrating Glazer rounds ditto.

Thunderzap, Glazer, etc, produce a nasty shallow wound. Such a wound will hurt a lot, and may kill your target -- several days from now, from infection, unless you hit a surface artery. A reliable stop requires a round capable of penetrating through to the spine from a front or off-angle shot, which means 10-12" penetration in flesh.

[austenandrews]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

So add a high-tech electric/shaped explosive/chemical/pharmaceutical/nanoscale/what-have-you element. It stands to reason that if you want to harm a person but not the ship, you don't rely on kinetic force alone to deliver damage. (That would be "clumsy and random." )

[Sundog]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Thunderzap' date=' Glazer, etc, produce a nasty shallow wound. Such a wound will hurt a lot, and may kill your target -- several days from now, from infection, unless you hit a surface artery. A reliable stop requires a round capable of penetrating through to the spine from a front or off-angle shot, which means 10-12" penetration in flesh.[/quote']

 

That can be a problem with 'zaps - they can shatter too early and only produce superficial injuries.

 

Glazer Blue rounds, on the other hand, I've heard described as "a bomb in a box". A torso hit is a nearly guaranteed fatal, due to it's unpleasent tendency to shred multiple internal organs. It's like taking a shotgun blast at point-blank range.

 

Also, don't forget the energy dump and shock effects. I don't care how good you are, after you take a hit from one of these, you're out of the fight.

[gewing]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

That can be a problem with 'zaps - they can shatter too early and only produce superficial injuries.

 

Glazer Blue rounds, on the other hand, I've heard described as "a bomb in a box". A torso hit is a nearly guaranteed fatal, due to it's unpleasent tendency to shred multiple internal organs. It's like taking a shotgun blast at point-blank range.

 

Also, don't forget the energy dump and shock effects. I don't care how good you are, after you take a hit from one of these, you're out of the fight.

 

 

 

nothing is 100%

 

 

I remember reading about a man hit in the torso by a 12.7mm RUSSIAN. He was in the fighting between Ethiopia and Eritrea.

 

He walked out across the boarder to a medical facility.

 

 

NOt a guy to fight.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Glazer Blue rounds, on the other hand, I've heard described as "a bomb in a box". A torso hit is a nearly guaranteed fatal, due to it's unpleasent tendency to shred multiple internal organs. It's like taking a shotgun blast at point-blank range.

Sounds like PR at work, or perhaps a very very small shotgun. A shotgun is not lethal due to some magical property of shotgun ammunition, it's lethal because a typical 12ga fires a total of 550gr of shot at upwards of 1500 fps. In no way will 115gr at 1200 fps match its lethality.

[Sundog]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Sounds like PR at work' date=' or perhaps a very very small shotgun. A shotgun is not lethal due to some magical property of shotgun ammunition, it's lethal because a typical 12ga fires a total of 550gr of shot at upwards of 1500 fps. In no way will 115gr at 1200 fps match its lethality.[/quote']

 

I think they were making the comparison because, like a shotgun blast, Glazer rounds break up into numerous pellets and case fragments upon impact. I entirely agree that a 12 Gauge is far more lethal than any pistol shot can ever be - but don't forget that the best-selling shotgun last year was the .410.

[ajackson]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

I think they were making the comparison because' date=' like a shotgun blast, Glazer rounds break up into numerous pellets and case fragments upon impact. I entirely agree that a 12 Gauge is far more lethal than any pistol shot can ever be - but don't forget that the best-selling shotgun last year was the .410.[/quote']

Don't forget that the major purpose of shotguns is shooting at birds. Very few home defense weapons will ever be used for home defense, which means very few people will ever know if their home defense weapon is actually effective in that role.

 

This is getting off topic, though. For anyone interested, a place to start is Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.

[Kari]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Now I would think that the best way to get swords to a spaceship would be in the luggage compartment since I dont think they allow them as carry on luggage.

[DiTenebras]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Fascinating topic.

 

Of course, the short (and best) answer is to make it a defining characteristic of the culture, but since we're trying for semi-plausible...

 

Getting swords on starships in your campaign means making swords more practical than firearms onboard ship. How easy this is depends on exactly how futuristic your campaign is and what sort of technology is available. Most of the discussion in this thread has revolved around the idea that the swords and guns involved are fairly equivalent to their modern counterparts (although I love the idea of the nano-tool). Maybe we should start thinking about how these things can evolve.

 

First off, a historical look: Most shipboard combat during the "black powder" age of pirates and colonization was carried out by sword / belaying pin / boathook despite the growing availability of firearms, for one very simple reason: no need to reload. Certainly, anyone who had a firearm used it, but until they had a chance to pack more powder, wadding, and shot into their guns they had to use melee combat. In this case, while guns were used, swords were more practical for extended combat. Of course, all that changed with semiautomatic weapons.

 

Swords do still have some decided advantages. A blade is easier to use in close quarters if it's fairly short, it's comparatively quiet, won't jam, and doesn't need reloading. Also, a blow from a gladius-type sword to an unarmored target will easily exceed the tissue damage caused by most handguns (not heavy calibur, glaser, or shotguns). Firearms are, however, easier to use, ranged, and offer better armor penetration with the proper ammunition.

 

Plausibly (not semi-plausibly) getting hand weapons on ships involves once again shifting the balance of technology to the point that they are more efficient than firearms. There are several ways of doing this:

 

1) Outdate firearms - 9mm? 9mm what? OH! You mean a slug-thrower. People haven't used those in ages. I mean, some collectors may still have one or two, but they haven't been manufactured since 32... um... ever since they came up with ion-packet technology about 4000 years ago.

 

Replace the dominant weapon technology with something energy base, and include the effect of supression fields (magnetic, tachyon, lepton-diffusion fields, whatever), or personal energy-diffusion fields for security personnel that render the wearer immune to most non-military grade "blaster" fire, but are ineffective against physical attacks. If fire-arms are outdated, but any punk can lay his hands on an ion blaster for 2 weeks' pay, you'll only see firearms in the hands of collectors (or, more importantly, assassins who are specifically trying to circumvent a VIP's field protection - now, there's a plot arc).

 

2) Make it costly to use ranged weapons - it's been mentioned before that flammable gasses are a very real danger in ship combat - well, what if the crew (who has a security division trained in melee combat) could flood a section of the ship with pure oxygen or another flammable gas. A muzzle flare or ion blast would incinerate (or at least crispify) anything in the area. Sure, it's dangerous, but it makes anyone boarding a ship think twice about firing. It may take out the defenders, but most pirates (not talking zealots here) would rather live to fight another day than go out in a blaze.

 

3) My favorite - make melee weapons the only alternative for members of the "upper class." This plays similarly to the "dune reactive only to fast things force field deluxe model plus plus" but with different trimmings. Let's say that military, security, and well-off space travellers have access to personal force fields. The technology can be based on whatever you like, but I'll use harmonic shielding (using a semisolid field of energy tuned to various sonic pitches) for this example. These personal force fields manage to lessen the impact of any attack (physical or energy based) to a negligible level. However, many duelists, officers, and well-trained criminals carry weapons modified with "harmonic dissonance fields" - the blade vibrates erratically and slides through harmonic shielding as if it weren't there. Also, the vibrating blade has significantly higher cutting power than a standard edged weapon.

 

Here we have a melee weapon with a decided advantage. Even though it's compact, a harmonic dissonance generator is too large to be contained within a bullet. Also, it's expensive enough to be affordable only among the elite. The rank and file may mow each other down with ranged weapons, but a dissonance blade is the mark of a combatant to be feared. Since they pass through armor as well as harmonic fields with disturbing ease, the result of combat is determined by the skill of the combatants. Few people (maybe just the captain of the pirates and one or two of the PC's) will wield a dissonance blade, and fewer still will walk away from a duel versus another skilled wielder.

 

That about covers my suggestions, although the fact that swords on spaceships are cool should of course take precidence over all else.

[Zeropoint]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Even if the 9mm Parabellum, and all of its chemically powered brethren have become obsolete, there is still the issue of more advanced "slugthrowers". If I knew that a cheap, common defense against energy weapons existed, then I'd be investing in magnetic acceleration weapons. Or air guns, or a crossbow. An assassin wouldn't need to track down the mysterious relic of the past, the ancient gunpowder weapon, to bypass the force field. He'd need a steel spring and a sharp stick.

 

People are very, very ingenious about finding ways to kill each other more efficiently. When both your life and your mission success rely on you not just surviving but WINNING a fight, you have a lot of incentive to get creative and play dirty. So, a "harmonic dissonance generator" won't fit in a bullet? What WILL it fit in, and how hard is it, with ultratech, to build a launcher for that?

 

Captain: "Well met, Sir. You've cut your way through my crew, but now let us see how you fare against an equal.:

Captain: draws harmonic sword

Pirate: draws a big knife

Captain: "Come now, sir, do you expect an interesting duel when you have a weapon like that?"

Pirate: "No."

Pirate: pushes button on knife handle

Spring-propelled harmonic knife blade: "Whee!"

SFX: "splick!"

Captain: "ARRGH! You damn cheating bastard! I . . . "

Captain: dies

Pirate: "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb!"

[gewing]

Re: How to get swords on your starship

 

Even if the 9mm Parabellum, and all of its chemically powered brethren have become obsolete, there is still the issue of more advanced "slugthrowers". If I knew that a cheap, common defense against energy weapons existed, then I'd be investing in magnetic acceleration weapons. Or air guns, or a crossbow. An assassin wouldn't need to track down the mysterious relic of the past, the ancient gunpowder weapon, to bypass the force field. He'd need a steel spring and a sharp stick.

 

People are very, very ingenious about finding ways to kill each other more efficiently. When both your life and your mission success rely on you not just surviving but WINNING a fight, you have a lot of incentive to get creative and play dirty. So, a "harmonic dissonance generator" won't fit in a bullet? What WILL it fit in, and how hard is it, with ultratech, to build a launcher for that?

 

Captain: "Well met, Sir. You've cut your way through my crew, but now let us see how you fare against an equal.:

Captain: draws harmonic sword

Pirate: draws a big knife

Captain: "Come now, sir, do you expect an interesting duel when you have a weapon like that?"

Pirate: "No."

Pirate: pushes button on knife handle

Spring-propelled harmonic knife blade: "Whee!"

SFX: "splick!"

Captain: "ARRGH! You damn cheating bastard! I . . . "

Captain: dies

Pirate: "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb!"

 

 

 

 

I was thinking about it the other way around.

 

Captain: Surrender now or we use the riot guns!

Pirate: I'll gut you like a fish!

 

Captain: FIRE!

 

As the 1 inch bore shotguns firing low velocity rounds tear the pirate apart...

 

Captain: Mop squad to the Bridge!