Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

[Silbeg]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Ok, maybe I will put my 2 cents in here.

 

First, I would go with a simpler build than the AF. I would use the Sweep manuever for all this (really, this better defines what you want to do!). Whether there is an implied limitation preventing him from exceeding his non-sweeping OCV is up to you and your GM.

 

Then, to simulate the extra hands/arms, buy one or two levels with Sweep for every extra arm. So, for 6 arms, add 4-8 levels.

 

With this, he can now sweep with many different manuevers (using the base Sweep rules). So, he can disarm target 1, strike target 2, and grab target 3!!! You can't do that with an autofire.

 

As for the DCV problem, give him Two Weapon Fighting (HtH). Since your campaign already allows the Sweep manuever, this Skill will replace the 1/2DCV with a flat -2DCV (5ER-73). This will cost 10 points, and will also handle the "off hand" issue that would come with attacks from extra limbs.

 

All of this comes by much cheaper, since you won't have to pay the doubling on the Reduced Endurance, since this is not an Autofire advantage.

 

Then, of course, I would add in an AE power... basically a Naked Advantage on STR to give AE Radius, Selective, to his STR. You'd probably want to have the radius be the same size as his stretching, but as GM, I would require this power to cost END (he is exerting himself greatly in this power, to attack all targets in range). This could be why he doesn't do it very often?!

 

Hope all of this helps, and wasn't to babbly. Yet another dissertation by Silbeg!!!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Heh heh - nice call, Shaft! That pretty much simulates pushing perfectly!

 

And 2 points! El cheapo!

Oh yeah... At that price, why stop at only +10 points?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Would I be able to potentially purchase something like PSLs or limited OCV levels to counter certain Autofire penalties' date=' like the oft-metioned "tracking across multiple hexes to hit several spread-out targets" (thereby potentially avoiding the DCV-sucking Autofire skills)? If not, then I might be better off spending a pittance of points for OCV bonuses with Sweep. Halved DCV, but more flexibility right off the bat with the types of attacks I can use with it.[/quote']

 

You can buy extra OCV/CSLs, but not PSLs. Those aren't actual penalties, but CV modifiers. You might ask yourself "what's the difference?" and it's kinda hard to explain. As basic as I can get it, there are modifiers that are inherent to the maneuver due to it's nature (such as a -2 to Grab or the DCV loss from a Haymaker or Sweep), and then there are circumstantial modifiers that depend upon the target and environment (such as Hit Location, Range, Size, etc.). You can only apply PSLs to the circumstantial modifiers.

 

I'm not sure if the -1 per additional hit on Autofire is part of the autofire "maneuver" or a circumstantial modifer.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Silbeg:

 

Unless there's a significant difference between 5th edition and 5th edition, revised, using two-weapon fighting will put my character at half DCV. Two-weapon fighting only reduces the initial -2 OCV penalty.

 

Under Two-weapon fighting:

"Characters using Two-Weapon Fighting are subject to all rules for Rapid Fire or Sweep, regarding the maneuvers they can use, CV modifiers, etc."

 

Under Sweep:

"Sweep requires a full phase (thought this is countered with buying Rapid Fire-HTH) and reduces the character to 1/2 DCV."

 

My character already has Two-Weapon fighting, Rapid Fire (HtH), and full ambidexterity anyway, and has made use of them all - but only in a) dire situations where he was unconcerned about being spanked, and situations where the villain's CVs were so lowered by maneuver "X" that he couldn't resist.

 

Again, I'm working off of 5th edition - so if it's the case now that sweep only adds a flat -2 DCV, then huzzah! Good to know. That could mean things might be a lot less complex.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Dust Raven:

 

 

Removing the successive penalties on additional Autofire hits (which I thought was -2, without purchasing a particularly nasty Autofire skill) wasn't something I had in mind anyway. I'd honestly rather avoid being able to hit a target 5 times just as easily as I hit that target once. Even I have limits!

 

I was referring more to things like that "tracking across multiple hexes to hit several spread-out targets" thing I keep bringing up. Not that I'm necessarily obsessed with it - it just seems like the best example.

 

 

I tend to get a little confused sometimes with CSLs vs. PSLs. With the Autofire thing, it seems like: "there's a penalty - I want to eliminate it, without creating positive modifiers." I'm not arguing with you here (I realize you're right), but doesn't it seem to make a little more sense than CSLs that you arbitrarily decide won't work past a certain point to give you positive modifiers, only counteract negatives?

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Hyper-Man:

 

What I meant specifically with the question

 

"What would stop me from buying various slots in the HtH MP that were only, say, one extra dice of damage? eg. could I basically end up with autofire punches that did 10d6 damage for 10-15 points or so using this method (which seems like exploiting the rules in a nasty way)?"

 

was this (I wasn't clear, or at least wasn't sure If I was based on your answer):

 

Would I be able to have STR, without the Autofire advantage, purchase +X HA (again, potentially something stupidly cheap like a single dice) with Autofire, and be able to:

a) make just as many attacks with it as if I had Autofire on my STR,

stack martial maneuvers on top, without having purchased autofire for them too?

 

all the while, I'd be getting a slight bonus to damage with all attacks?

 

Ouch!

It would seem that I could (at least based on how I've interpreted your examples), but it seems really cheap - too cheap.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

A xd6 HA with Advantages can only have up to xd6 of damage added to it from STR. If more STR than this is used then the HA cannot be used.

 

A xd6 HA without any Advantages can have ANY* amount of STR damage added. (* using superheroic rules)

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Gotcha. That makes a lot more sense. Is that in the description of Hand-to-hand attack from 5th ed., Revised, or is it somewhere else? Nothing like that in my old vanilla 5th (and also good to know), at least under the description of this power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Gotcha. That makes a lot more sense. Is that in the description of Hand-to-hand attack from 5th ed.' date=' Revised, or is it somewhere else? Nothing like that in my old vanilla 5th (and also good to know), at least under the description of this power.[/quote']

 

That particular wording is mine.

The Adding Damage Section did get reorganized from 5E to 5ER.

 

from my sig:

 

5ER>5E Pg# by Zornwil

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26915

 

p. 405 => p. 270-271 (Adding Damage Section GREATLY EXPANDED, REORGANIZED)

[Silbeg]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Silbeg:

 

Unless there's a significant difference between 5th edition and 5th edition, revised, using two-weapon fighting will put my character at half DCV. Two-weapon fighting only reduces the initial -2 OCV penalty.

 

Under Two-weapon fighting:

"Characters using Two-Weapon Fighting are subject to all rules for Rapid Fire or Sweep, regarding the maneuvers they can use, CV modifiers, etc."

 

I can't say for sure, since my copy of 5E is on loan. However, on 5ER p73, it differentiates between campaigns that allow Sweep to be available for all characters, and those that don't.

 

—in campaigns that allow all characters to use the Rapid Fire and/or Sweep Optional Combat Maneuvers' date=' a character using Two-Weapon Fighting only suffers a -2 DCV, instead of the standard halving of DCV.[/quote']

 

So, while Sweep still has the cost of 1/2DCV, Two Weapon Fighting (at least in 5E) mostly mitigates this issue.

 

Now, with this rule in place, it does tend to make Sweep more useful for martial artists! Bricks will still use it as normal, since DCV is typically less of an issue for them.

 

Hope this helps!

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Silbeg:

 

If:

 

a) "Two-Weapon Fighting" is basically still the same in 5Er as 5E (in that it's just a modified Sweep), and

 

my character could concievably make multiple Sweep attacks (ie. more than just two) using it with only a total flat penalty of -2 DCV (still having cumulative penalties to OCV, of course) regardless of how many attcks he makes,

 

then that makes a huge difference.

 

If that is in fact the case, then a few bonuses to OCV (only to deal with Sweep penalties) as you suggested previously would be an efficient, acceptable option. Taking a hit of 2 DCV is a pretty minor drop in the bucket compared to having his DCV halved, and cheap to counter! Not to mention the even greater attack options with Sweep, as you mentioned...

 

If, on the other hand, there's a -2 penalty to DCV per attack (much like OCV), then I'd still tend to avoid it under most circumstances (until I got the chance to give my buddy's 5Er some serious study), at least for attacks with more than a couple arms at a time. I gather this isn't the case, but I just wanted to make sure I was absolutely clear on it.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

It seems as though 5E and 5Er differ on quite a few of these little details! Certainly enough to add up to a big difference in the end when you've got a character like mine...

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Well, based on all the info you guys have thrown my way (for which I can't thank you enough), I've decided to fall back on plain old Sweep.

 

1) It avoids a lot of the sticky points that exist with things like the HA bonuses stacking with the Autofire stacking with the martial maneuver stacking with the stretching quandries. Not that you didn't explain things to me very clearly and thoroughly, Hyper-Man; or that the multipowers you suggested weren't very cool and potentially useful - just that I'd rather avoid the complications, esp. when I don't have 5Er yet.

 

2) Since I've already got Two-Weapon fighting, Rapid Fire (HTH), and Amidexterity, this would easily be the cheapest option! With the points I save by not having Autofire on my STR (and doubling the cost of the END reduction to boot), I can put the stretching at say, 1/2 END (I think it would still be a good idea for it to cost some END, so I'm not flinging around everyone within a 13" radius all the time), and buy some OCV levels with Sweep. If the minor reduction in DCV ends up bothering me later, I could easily buy "+2 DCV, only to counter Sweep penalty" or some such thing.

 

3) An area of effect attack would probably cost a whole mess 'o points to have at a 13" radius, and attacking 6 guys a round is more than enough for me (and probably close enough to AOE for now)!

 

I still might pick up an area of effect for a smaller radius to represent some aspects of the strength, speed, and multitasking - but I'll have to give it some thought. I'm really tempted, but I think I'll wait on that one for a bit. I'd rather buy things incrementally than bam-bam-bam!

 

 

Well, it seems that most of my questions have been answered for now, and your ideas have fallen on willing and appreciative ears. Any last thoughts, fellows?

[Silbeg]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

If that is in fact the case, then a few bonuses to OCV (only to deal with Sweep penalties) as you suggested previously would be an efficient, acceptable option. Taking a hit of 2 DCV is a pretty minor drop in the bucket compared to having his DCV halved, and cheap to counter! Not to mention the even greater attack options with Sweep, as you mentioned...

 

It would be a set -2DCV penalty.

 

On another point, as a GM I would be very uncomfortable with the 0END on STR, used along side the incredibly high DEX/CV, with the Sweep. Perhaps the balance here will be that you have relatively low DCs (at 9d6), but Martial Arts could make that even more unbalancing.

 

 

If your attacks are more than, say 10d6, your character runs a high risk of just dominating everyone else's. Being able to hit 4-6 targets per phase with a reasonable OCV (note that against 4 targets, you'll still have a 9OCV!!!), could easily make others in your game redundant. The equalizer would be if you cannot easily affect higher DEF targets, but even that doesn't balance much if you hit that 30DEF brick 5 times with your 10d6?!

 

Just pointing out a concern... which may be irrelevant in your game.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Oh, absolutely valid concerns, Silbeg.

 

As I'd mentioned before, our game is quite high-powered: one character has a 15d6 HTH attack that's armour-piercing (and can do it twice in a combat round), another handily deals out 16d6 with every punch and can throw anything effectively, and another can produce 19d6 energy blasts (or produce 10d6 autofire x5 blasts) on those occasions when his absorption (vs. pretty much any energy) is fully charged.

 

Even so, I can see your point! My intention was such that I wouldn't generally be using all 6 arms, all the time - but when the poop hits the fan, I wanted to be able to cut loose and hit pretty reliably. Sort of an unspoken gentleman's agreement, and the same reason I don't cut loose with a 21d6 move-through at every available opportunity (even though I do have specific defenses that allow me to handle the damage to myself when doing so). I definitely plan on discussing it with the other players to see how they feel about it; they were cool with the autofire STR at least, and I don't think this will change things too significantly from that, but I'd rather get their opinions than just assume.

 

I appreciate the feedback - as a powergamer, it's good to hear the voice of moderation sometimes!

[DinoMan18]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

spidys powers will always be a problem becuse know one way i perfect thats the beauty of the hero system ive made 4 different designs for iron man and they all work fine

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

You're right there DinoMan - though I'm not trying to create an exact duplicate of Spidey, just sort of a tribute - so I don't have to worry about the exact details matching up. I just saw his weblines as being very similar in effect to what I wanted to do with my guy's weblines. I do have a writeup of Spider-Man that I made that I feel is very, very accurate; at least based on his abilities relative to the Champions Universe. That being said, I've seen other people's versions on this site that seem pretty good too!

 

Admittedly, though, I think see my character's webshooting more as producing a gluey ball from his wrist, actually throwing it, and having a line of webbing attached to it trailing behind, sort of like a bolas spider.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Dust Raven:

 

 

Removing the successive penalties on additional Autofire hits (which I thought was -2, without purchasing a particularly nasty Autofire skill) wasn't something I had in mind anyway. I'd honestly rather avoid being able to hit a target 5 times just as easily as I hit that target once. Even I have limits!

 

I was referring more to things like that "tracking across multiple hexes to hit several spread-out targets" thing I keep bringing up. Not that I'm necessarily obsessed with it - it just seems like the best example.

 

 

I tend to get a little confused sometimes with CSLs vs. PSLs. With the Autofire thing, it seems like: "there's a penalty - I want to eliminate it, without creating positive modifiers." I'm not arguing with you here (I realize you're right), but doesn't it seem to make a little more sense than CSLs that you arbitrarily decide won't work past a certain point to give you positive modifiers, only counteract negatives?

Well, the difference is a bit muddled. As I said, it's hard to explain. I guess another way of looking at it to ask yourself if the "penalty" could every be more or less than the listed amount. Like a Grab, the penalty is always a -2. Never more, never less. So you pay full price for the levels to increase that to an even -0 (or you can consider such maneuvers to have a default OCV of two less than your normal OCV, or whatever makes your brain happy). Other things are variable. I figure since the Autofire stuff is technically variable (since you can track over a different number of hexes each Phase and whatever), you can use PSLs for that. Then again, Skipover Sprayfire reduced this to a flat penalty (I think), so you'd have to buy a CSL instead, considering Skipover a separate maneuver from targeting a single target.

 

Then again, all this is making my head hurt....

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

You and me both...

 

Actually, if memory serves, there's a list somewhere of the specific things that PSLs can cover (probably in The Ultimate Skill)- anything else is CSLs. Best not to look to closely and accept the list at face value, and avoid aneurysms...