Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

[Spidey88]

I thought up a series of questions during our Saturday game I'd like some input on.

 

Let's say you've been given the OK to create a character with autofire as an advantage for his STR attribute, justified as extra limbs and the ability to make multiple attacks with them.

 

Said character has at least some stretching as well, in a build such as a Doctor Octopus-type, a giant amoeba-thing who can extrude multiple pseudopods, etc. - or in my case, an extremely thinly-veiled Spider-Man homage/ripoff with six arms and limited stretching defined as web/grapple lines.

 

How would you handle attacks against foes within the range of the stretching, but said foes are neither adjacent to the character nor each other? Obviously the multiple target penalty would apply - but would the character have to worry about such things as tracking attacks across multiple hexes?

 

For that matter, would you allow stretching to dovetail with the autofire STR? Stretching, IMHO, is the ability to exert one's STR at limited ranges, but would this be breaking the laws of good taste?

 

In regards to the autofire STR in general (with or without the stretching involved): would there be any cogent reason as to why said character would be unable to apply the autofire ability to any particular maneuvers, martial or otherwise, assuming said maneuver didn't violate any particular special effects of the extra limbs/stretching? Would autofire need to be puchased individually for any maneuvers involved eg. "Martial Grab" or "Legsweep", and if so, how would one cover basic maneuvers that everyone can use for free, eg. your basic "grab"?

 

 

I've only just recently picked up the Autofire ability: I'd love to pick all of your big, juicy brains over these things so I don't make any serious boo-boos that will haunt me later...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

I'm not too sure how Autofire applies to specific maneuvers, or the use of multiple maneuvers. I'm pretty sure that with the default "strike" maneuver, Autofire works the same in HTH as it does Ranged, you just have fewer options for targets (you can only ever attack into your hex and the 6 adjacent). Adding Stretching into the mix just returns those options. Consider it Ranged, with a range equal to the Stretching distance.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Well, that is that one solved then.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Thanks for the response, Dust Raven!

 

To tell you the truth, that was my first assumption regarding the stretching, but I was a little apprehensive about it.

 

Had I made a super-munchkin power, and if so, how could I avoid abusing it (but still use it) as much as possible now that I'd bought it and used it during a fight? I'm something of a powergamer - so I was a little concerned that what seemed fine to me might be a point of frustration with the other players. I'm the sort that likes to use every single point available at maximum efficiency, but I don't want to run roughshod over everyone else's fun in the process.

 

By "consider it ranged", would that imply that all the standard penalties (eg. the aforementioned penalties for tracking attacks across hexes) for ranged autofire attacks would apply, or would I only have to deal with the penalties of multiple attackers (since my character's effective "reach" is sufficient to get to them)?

 

Anyway...

 

Any other takers?

[Shaft]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

I'd suggest that you use the autofire skills to get more out of your Autofire, Stre(tch/ngth). Well worth the points.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

It's just a question of how many of them I'd need, ie. which ones would be applicable! My character depends pretty heavily (almost entirely, really) on a high DCV, so using autofire skills willy-nilly could get painful - but it's no worse than using Sweep/two-weapon fighting...

 

Suggestion noted!

[CourtFool]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Area Affect, Selective anyone?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Area Affect' date=' Selective anyone?[/quote']

 

Bingo!

 

50 Need some hand(s)?: Multipower, 75-point reserve, (75 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack ((Custom MP Limitation); -1/2) - END=

5u 1) I'm going to hit you so many times...: HA +6d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (75 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: END must still be paid for the STR used and no more than 30 can be added.] - END=0

5u 2) 5, 10 or 100 opponents, it makes no difference!: HA +6d6, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: No more than 30 STR can be used with attack.] - END=3

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Perfectly valid and cool powers, Hyper-Man - though really, what I'm interested in is the parameters of what my character already has.

 

That's not to say that I would never consider building an ability like that, though! It could come in very "handy".

 

ba-dump-bump *CHING*

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Perfectly valid and cool powers' date=' Hyper-Man - though really, what I'm interested in is the parameters of what my character already [i']has.[/i]

 

That's not to say that I would never consider building an ability like that, though! It could come in very "handy".

 

ba-dump-bump *CHING*

 

Well, can we see what your character currently has?

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Absolutely. Here's what seems relevant:

 

Str 45, with the autofire x5 advantage (I might save up for x6 on principle)

Dex 39

SPD 8

 

lots of Superleap, swinging, and running (in a MP, much like the "Wall-Crawler" powerset in the Champions genre book)

 

(Yup - I paid through the nose for those)

 

Stretching, 13" , with: direct, no NCM, no velocity damage, range mod applies, limited parts ("hands" only), no fine manipulation (-1/4 seemed right); and a custom disad "limited vectors" at -1/2, to represent that he's limited to basically straight impacts (at 1/2 STR), grappling/tripping attempts, or pulling things more or less towards him (though his own momentum may alter this slightly with something like a passing disarm or flying throw if he's say, leaping over a target while shooting) - so he couldn't just lift something lateral to his position.

 

Really, I was trying to duplicate Spider-Man's weblines as accurately as possible - though produced organically rather than using any sort of focus. If memory serves, the inches of stretching aren't linked to his swinging movement, to represent that he could shoot out a webline while running or jumping to trip someone or fling them around in certain ways. My character is also incapable of any real entangle attacks - the webs are produced as lines and can't be emitted in a spray of any kind (yet, anyway).

 

360-degree vision, defense maneuver IV, and the double-jointed perk (so he likely doesn't have to worry about what direction he's facing too much)

 

I think he's got the full "Speedster martial arts" set of martial maneuvers now...

 

The sort of utility things you'd expect, such as Clinging, Perfect Balance perk, Danger Sense, etc., and a bevy of athletic skills (eg. Acrobatics and Breakfall).

 

 

He's also got Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Rapid fire (HTH) - I'm not really looking for what he can do with the "Sweep" maneuver, but I thought it might come up in the discussion.

 

 

I hope that's a little clearer - and I hope I didn't come across as ungrateful for your input, Hyperman. I'm anything but!

 

(I already Repped you for your contribution, anyway!)

 

Let me know if there's anything else that you need to know.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Well, the Naked Autofire Advantage on STR only costs you 22 active points but it has some serious* limitations when compared to the Advantaged HA route.

 

*When making an autofire 5 attack you pay the END not only for using 45 STR 5 times but you also pay END for the Naked Advantage as well (5 times also!).

 

from page 409 5er,

 

Advantages For STR

If a character has an Advantage for his STR but hasn’t bought the same Advantage for an attack he adds damage to with STR, the Advantage does not apply to the attack at all (not even to the damage dice added by STR), unless the GM rules otherwise. It only applies to the damage done by the character’s STR when he uses STR by itself. For example, a character with 20 STR, Armor Piercing, who uses an Offensive Strike (+4d6) or Haymaker (also +4d6) does 8d6 Normal Damage, with no Armor Piercing effect.

This is not the way Advantaged HA's work. You can add Martial Maneuver damage normally. For an extra 24 active points you get the following which still has a maximum 9d6 before manuever bonuses without losing anything you had before.

 

38 Need some hand(s)? alternative based on 45 STR character: Multipower, 57-point reserve, (57 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack ((Custom MP Limitation); -1/2) - END=

4u 1) I'm going to hit you so many times...: HA +4 1/2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (57 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: END must still be paid for the STR used and no more than 23 can be added.] - END=0

4u 2) 5, 10 or 100 opponents, it makes no difference!: HA +4 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4), Selective (+1/4) (57 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: No more than 23 STR can be used with attack.] - END=0

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Thanks for the response' date=' [b']Dust Raven[/b]!

 

You're welcome.

 

By "consider it ranged", would that imply that all the standard penalties (eg. the aforementioned penalties for tracking attacks across hexes) for ranged autofire attacks would apply, or would I only have to deal with the penalties of multiple attackers (since my character's effective "reach" is sufficient to get to them)?

 

Anyway...

 

Any other takers?

I'm not sure what you mean by multiple attackers, you are just one character. One attacker. Multiple target maybe... But yes, you'd suffer all the usually penalties for tracking multiple targets across hexes (must punch into each hex, target there or not, etc) unless you also buy some of those spiffy Autofire Skills.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Actually, Hyper-Man, I had forgot to mention that my character's STR has reduced END (0 End) on it too to represent his super-enhanced, amost entirely aerobic (thereby generating effectively no fatigue poisons under normal conditions) arthropoid musculature (which I did pay double for after I got the Autofire ability, and paid a lot for) - though the End cost will still probably be pretty prohibitive, considering there's no END reduction on the stretching anyway!

 

Still, knowing that any martial maneuvers and such won't add anything damage-wise will make a difference. I guess I'll need to buy Autofire for some of them, too (in order to make use of them, anyway, if I keep things as-is) - but that should be relatively cheap. Glad you brought it to my attention!

 

The reason I decided to go with the Autofire STR in the first place was:

 

a) because of the flexibility I assumed it implied: I could wade into a pile of bricks (the masonry kind) and throw a few at a time; or grab a guy's arms, legs and wings all at once; or deprive multiple agents of their weapons in one fell swoop; and

 

the fact that it allowed for multiple attacks, determined normally (again, my initial assumption), without a reduction in DCV (without his DCV, my character's dead meat - trying to go for the "Artful dodger" thing).

 

I'll have to think about the sorts of powers you've suggested (eg. the HtH MP) and see if I can accomplish the breadth of what I had in mind for a similar amount of points. Considering how many points I've now thrown down for my character's STR, it may not be hard - though I'm still stumped as to how to deal with the grab/disarm elements (I'll have the opportunity to think about that later, just not at home at the moment).

 

So far I haven't used the autofire for anything other than decking a single opponent a few times in one round, so retconning the ability shouldn't be too problematic if that's what it comes down to.

 

And yes, DustRaven, I did mean multiple targets. Of course, you could interpret that as "attacking multiple attackers", but I wasn't really thinking while I typed that... Thanks for the input! I've made characters for years, but rarely had the chance to play, so there's a lot I'm having to figure out on the fly.

 

There's more I'd like to ask based on your responses, but it'll have to wait for now!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

One more thing you might want to consider is that once an ability costs 0 END it can no longer be Pushed.

[feralucce]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Hyper-Man... that is a darn good point

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

One that had not escaped me, actually. I'd toyed with the idea of something like "+10 STR, only for pushing" - would that cover those situations where I'd actually need to push? It hasn't really come up yet, surprisingly - so I've never really had the need to give it a lot of thought.

[Shaft]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

One more thing you might want to consider is that once an ability costs 0 END it can no longer be Pushed.

 

Of course you can buy [+10 with the limitations: requires an EGO roll -1/2, cost x10 END -4, only in circumstances where STR could be pushed -1/2 real cost: 2 pts] to offset that minor problem.

[Shaft]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

heh- looks like a few of us are all on the same wavelength on circumventing that...

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Until that situation comes up (assuming my solution is valid), I could just assume that the aerobic nature of his musculature somewhat precludes the use of anaerobic effort, ie. pushing his STR.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Heh heh - nice call, Shaft! That pretty much simulates pushing perfectly!

 

And 2 points! El cheapo!

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Well, you guys have done a great job thus far answering my questions. (though if anyone else has anything else to contribute, I'm still open to suggestions!). Here's what's left on my mind for the time being:

 

 

So, it seems that I'll need to pay a few extra points to use martial maneuvers in conjunction with the Autofire. Can I then assume that maneuvers that cost no points (eg. your standard grab, disarm, etc.) are all perfectly valid options as-is?

 

Obviously things like a move-through aren't valid, or at least shouldn't be. (Hee hee - what if I got Autofire on my running or leaping? Just kidding - but that might be funny for a very stubborn, dimwitted speedster in a Tick-style world... Wham! Wham! Whamwhamwhamwhamwham! "Call me Hammer. Jack Hammer". Instant KO, both for the victim and the attacker! Makes me think of "Superfriends" for some reason - perhaps it's Superman's answer to force fields.) I could think of ways to simulate a triple-punch move-by, but I don't imagine there's a way to combine the move-by with the Autofire (and that's just fine, anyway. Just sort of thinking "out loud").

 

Would I be able to potentially purchase something like PSLs or limited OCV levels to counter certain Autofire penalties, like the oft-metioned "tracking across multiple hexes to hit several spread-out targets" (thereby potentially avoiding the DCV-sucking Autofire skills)? If not, then I might be better off spending a pittance of points for OCV bonuses with Sweep. Halved DCV, but more flexibility right off the bat with the types of attacks I can use with it.

 

(Just curious here - I don't necessarily need to find powers to deal with all situations perfectly with no risk!)

 

If I were to go with your route of the HtH multipower, Hyper-Man - would you have any suggestions as to how to create effects within it that could simulate things other than punching; like disarming, grabbing, and throwing (without resorting to such esoteric effects as "transform armed opponent to unarmed opponent)? Throwing objects at opponents would be easy enough to simulate, but throwing the opponents themselves seems like it might be problematic...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

...

 

If I were to go with your route of the HtH multipower, Hyper-Man - would you have any suggestions as to how to create effects within it that could simulate things other than punching; like disarming, grabbing, and throwing (without resorting to such esoteric effects as "transform armed opponent to unarmed opponent)? Throwing objects at opponents would be easy enough to simulate, but throwing the opponents themselves seems like it might be problematic...

 

Sure,

Just keep those martial manuevers.

 

The damage adding rules for MA manuevers and HA's (Advantaged or not) are some of the most complicated in the system. It's tempting to just add an un-advantaged HA slot to the multipower but I would recommend against it. MA bonus damage, especially 4 point extra DC's, is more efficient in the long run since it is already 0 END by default. And it gives more consistency to the character's overall damage curve with his variety of attacks.

[Spidey88]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

Sure,

Just keep those martial manuevers.

 

Ha - so simple! I'm not sure why that didn't occur to me, especially considering you've already mentioned it. Somehow that part of the point you were trying to make never really reached me...

 

So, an issue that I seem to recall giving me mental alarms of game-balance problems when I built the character in the first place:

 

What would stop me from buying various slots in the HtH MP that were only, say, one extra dice of damage? eg. could I basically end up with autofire punches that did 10d6 damage for 10-15 points or so using this method (which seems like exploiting the rules in a nasty way)?

 

If I wanted the attacks to be 0 END, would I have to pay for a +1 advantage on my STR as well, since it dovetails with the attacks?

 

Questions beget questions beget questions...

 

(Thank you for your patience!)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + Autofire STR: how would you handle it?

 

...What would stop me from buying various slots in the HtH MP that were only, say, one extra dice of damage? eg. could I basically end up with autofire punches that did 10d6 damage for 10-15 points or so using this method (which seems like exploiting the rules in a nasty way)?

 

If I wanted the attacks to be 0 END, would I have to pay for a +1 advantage on my STR as well, since it dovetails with the attacks?

 

1. Nothing really other than campaign DC limits and/or character schtick preservation.

 

2. Well, this might be a good question for the rest of HEROdom or Steve Long. I think the following is legal but I could be wrong.

 

If you spend 22 points on a 0 END Naked Advantage on the 45 STR and then combine that with the slots from my last mp example:

 

38 Need some hand(s)? alternative based on 45 STR character: Multipower, 57-point reserve, (57 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack ((Custom MP Limitation); -1/2) - END=

4u 1) I'm going to hit you so many times...: HA +4 1/2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1) (57 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: END must still be paid for the STR used and no more than 23 can be added.] - END=0

4u 2) 5, 10 or 100 opponents, it makes no difference!: HA +4 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4), Selective (+1/4) (57 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) [Notes: No more than 23 STR can be used with attack.] - END=0

 

Then the attacks will do 9d6 (before any MA manuevers) AND cost 0 END. The Autofire Advantage is being applied to STR for free as a result of being on the HA. Because of that, it does not imposed the cost doubling requirement normally associated with Reduced END combined with AF.

 

If you also want to be able to attack multiple targets 'at range' via Stretching using the AF slot you might consider making it 0 or 1/2 END as well.