Shields

[BlueBuddha]

So, I equipped one of my FH characters with a shield as statted out in FH. It's a large shield, to go with his Str of 15, and that gives a +3 DCV. That's not insignificant. AFAIK, that's an automatic +3 as long as he's holding it, and +3 to blocking. Am I correct?

 

If so, that means in order to keep things even, you'll typically need +3 CSLs to beat someone holding a large shield. It doesn't bother me that anyone behind a shield is harder to hit, or significantly harder to hit if they're behind a particularly large shield. I think shields are underpowered in other RPGs.

 

I was just wondering if anyone tried out these numbers and had anything to say about how they work in their campaigns. Is +3 for a large shield too much? Is combining it with a martial block or CSLs with shields too much?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Shields

 

Here are my general notes on arms & armaments in Fantasy HERO:

 

Arms & Armaments Notes (Shields)

 

Personally I think Shields are just about right as is. As far as using them to block, the character is giving up an action to do so.

 

Also, as far as "just holding" the shield, the GM is within their rights to deny or reduce the shield bonus in circumstances where the shield can't be brought to bear on an attack or if the character would seem to be in a state that they couldn't wield the shield effectively.

[BlueBuddha]

Re: Shields

 

As it is, shields grants +1 to +3 DCV, raising a normal to about 4 or 5 (since they can't carry a heavy shield). I think that's fair. It takes away from their offensive ability as they can't carry 2-handed weapons.

 

As for the "passive" DCV bonus, I think it can depend on circumstances, but should be nailed down to reduce arguments. I think someone shooting you in the back will bypass the entire bonus, while side-shots will get partial coverage (1 point less), and frontal shots will be full. A surprise shot will get increased OCV, so we can leave it there, instead of reducing DCV.

 

Does that sound about right?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Shields

 

Indeed, the DCV bonus from a Shield should only cover a 180 degree arc in front of the wielder. Any attacks from the rear-portion of the character will bypass the DCV bonus of the shield. Although a character with 360 degree sensing might be able to bring the shield to bear in 360 degrees. Also, a character who has Defense Maneuver should be able to use the DCV bonus of their Shield in 360 degrees. (a good reason for a sword and shield wielder to buy Def Maneuver!)

 

Also, you are correct, the DCV bonus of a Shield can convert to an OCV bonus when using the Shield to block attacks. This allows shield users to easily block 1 attack from an opponent of equal skill and to block 2 or 3 attacks from lesser skilled opponents.

 

Also, one could purchase 3pt Shield skill levels that add to DCV bonus (or OCV when blocking) when one is wielding a shield. In addition, they can be used for OCV or +Damage Classes when using the shield to Bash or Shove.

 

In my opinion, shields are severely underestimated by many HERO players...

[Outsider]

Re: Shields

 

I only give shields a 120 degree arc of coverage. Forward & the front side on which the shield is held. The front Side on which the weapon is held remains vulnerable.

 

A couple of things to remember about shields :

 

1) All else being equal, +3DCV means that the attacker will hit 25% of the time rather than 62.5% of the time. If both contestants have large shields, then it will be a longer fight. If all is equal, except one contestant has a large shield and the other does not, then the one is far better equipped and an unequal fight is only to be expected.

 

2) Normal STR people wearing even light armor and carrying a weapon are usually pushed to taking an encumbrance penalty by the addition of a large shield. So that +3 DCV is actually watered down to +2. IIRC... I dont have my books handy to look at jsut now.

 

3) Again IIRC, a character actively wielding a shield pays END based on its STR min (or the STR min of any weapon he used (whichever is greater)) every phase. Characters using shields will find it difficult to conserve END without letting their guard down.

 

4) Every strike that misses the shield wielder by the DCV bonus of the shield or less hits the shield. Shields have a DEF and BODY, and when the BODY runs out, the shield is useless/destroyed.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Shields

 

What about someone with a shield strapped to their back? Could still be quite useful in protecting you from attacks from behind, at least ones that don't go for your legs etc.

[Outsider]

Re: Shields

 

The rulebook (FH) suggests adding 1-2 DEF to the locations covered by a carried but not wielded shield. That's basically what I'd do, though I'd use my pseudo-mass rule described in the last post in this thread : http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48681&page=4&highlight=mass

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Shields

 

What about someone with a shield strapped to their back? Could still be quite useful in protecting you from attacks from behind' date=' at least ones that don't go for your legs etc.[/quote']

 

I would add +1 or +2 DCV bonus to hitting the character from behind. Since attacking from behind drops DCV by 1/2, this bonus isn't particularly unbalancing. If the attack misses because of the DCV bonus, then they hit the shield as per normal rules. Although Body done to the shield should still count for Knockback/knockdown, even if nothing gets through to the wielder.

[Photon1966]

Re: Shields

 

Since were talking shields perhaps I can ask a few questions?

 

Background: Player @ has nice steel shield +3 DCV, 6 body, 5 def. Dex 18 and Str 18 and prime role is fighter type. I found his DCV a little high but liveable as it did keep his character alive and help perform his role, as he desired.

 

Now I did use the rules for damaging shields from near hits, which worked well as little foes didn't even scratch his shield but the Ogre brought it down to 1 body before they fell it. I liked that either he had to go buy a new shield, get some one to repair the old one, or learn the skills to repair it himself. He did gain the skills, which help give him a non-combat place to spend exp, and further developed his role.

 

Question: I was reading in the above posts and I interrupted what was said that to use a shield in combat costs END based on the Str Min, is that correct? Should my player's warrior @ been paying another 3 END an action to wield the shield and gain the DCV? I had in the past interrupted the Str Min was used for when attacked with it, not for simple using it. But the more I right this that seems wrong and the player @ owes me END!?!

 

Thanks in advance.

[Labrat]

Re: Shields

 

The DCV write-up, to me at least, is a misnomer. The attacker can still hit you so the Armor power would represent the effect better. I think damage should still be able to 'get through' the shield. That is to say, if a shield-bearer got the full brunt of an ogre's club directly on his shield he should suffer some damage. It's not out of the question to even break an arm when trying to suffer the brunt of a large weapon... especially repeatedly in battle.

 

I like having 'WF: Shields' as well. This might nullify the indirect damage from getting a shield between attacker and the shield-bearer.

 

Technically, and if it didn't add even more mathematical complication, I would also be in favor of applying 'Move By' rules to the use of shields for situations where a successful 'Block' was executed.

[Outsider]

Re: Shields

 

Since were talking shields perhaps I can ask a few questions?

 

Background: Player @ has nice steel shield +3 DCV, 6 body, 5 def. Dex 18 and Str 18 and prime role is fighter type. I found his DCV a little high but liveable as it did keep his character alive and help perform his role, as he desired.

 

Now I did use the rules for damaging shields from near hits, which worked well as little foes didn't even scratch his shield but the Ogre brought it down to 1 body before they fell it. I liked that either he had to go buy a new shield, get some one to repair the old one, or learn the skills to repair it himself. He did gain the skills, which help give him a non-combat place to spend exp, and further developed his role.

 

Question: I was reading in the above posts and I interrupted what was said that to use a shield in combat costs END based on the Str Min, is that correct? Should my player's warrior @ been paying another 3 END an action to wield the shield and gain the DCV? I had in the past interrupted the Str Min was used for when attacked with it, not for simple using it. But the more I right this that seems wrong and the player @ owes me END!?!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

I'm the person who initially brought it up, but as I've played it, a character with a weapon and shield (both of which have STR mins) has to exert his STR (and pay END to do so) every phase that he uses either or both of them. He doesn't pay twice if he maintains his defense (using the shield) and attacks (using the weapon) though. If he doesnt pay END, then both his weapon and sheild hang loosely from his sagging arms (ie no attack, and reduced effectiveness from the shield (DCV = +0-2 only, rather than +1-4, depending on the type of shield)

[Markdoc]

Re: Shields

 

I'm the person who initially brought it up' date=' but as I've played it, a character with a weapon and shield (both of which have STR mins) has to exert his STR (and pay END to do so) every phase that he uses either or both of them. He doesn't pay twice if he maintains his defense (using the shield) and attacks (using the weapon) though. If he doesnt pay END, then both his weapon and sheild hang loosely from his sagging arms (ie no attack, and reduced effectiveness from the shield (DCV = +0-2 only, rather than +1-4, depending on the type of shield)[/quote']

 

There's no rule that states that shields cost END to use, but suggestion above sounds like a reasonable house rule. Personally I don't charge END for defensive use of a shield because in most cases, I don't think you exert yourself as much as you do when striking. But as I said, it's not an unreasonable house rule, because a shield *does* get heavy-feeling mighty quickly.

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Shields

 

The DCV write-up, to me at least, is a misnomer. The attacker can still hit you so the Armor power would represent the effect better. I think damage should still be able to 'get through' the shield. That is to say, if a shield-bearer got the full brunt of an ogre's club directly on his shield he should suffer some damage. It's not out of the question to even break an arm when trying to suffer the brunt of a large weapon... especially repeatedly in battle.

 

I like having 'WF: Shields' as well. This might nullify the indirect damage from getting a shield between attacker and the shield-bearer.

 

Technically, and if it didn't add even more mathematical complication, I would also be in favor of applying 'Move By' rules to the use of shields for situations where a successful 'Block' was executed.

 

well, I love the DCV aspect of using a shield. Its far more "elegant" than simply adding armor on an activation roll. Utilizing the optional shield breakage rules will go a long way toward achieving some of what you want. I normally rule that an attack that misses because of the DCV of the Shield has hit the shield and does its normal damage to it. Any damage that bypasses the DEF of the shield, does damage to the shields body. When the Shields body is at 0 or less, it is effectively useless as a Shield, and any damage done to it at that point forward, goes through to the wielder (hitting the shield arm under normal circumstances)

Armor piercing and Penetrating attacks are particularly dangerous in that AP attacks reduce the DEF of the Shield as normal (unless the DEF of the shield is hardened of course) and I houserule that PEN attacks bypass the DEF and Body of the Shield to do its damage to the wielders shield-arm!

[Remjin]

Re: Shields

 

I think shields are cool... I hope more variation comes here. After watching 300, shields are even cooler than they were before, because now they have a certain dramatic feel to them whereas before they were just cool as heck.

 

Plus, that whole having a big ol' thing to keep me from getting hit idea is a wonderful thing all to itself...

 

Yeah, I even used a shield in D&D, event if it is relatively worthless in that game... even back in 2nd edition, where it took all your proficiencies up just to be marginally useful... which was another reason I switched to Hero. Ah, Hero, the source of and solution to all of roleplayings problems... =)

[Curufea]

Re: Shields

 

There are various things that can be done with a shield (and I have seen some of these done with shields) that are always under explored in roleplaying games-

Shield bash - whacking someone with the shield.

Shield charge - in general when you charge, you want to have impact - so you put your shoulder behind the shield. Especially fun in flying wedges.

Shield choke - using the edge of the shield as a weapon can even sometimes decapitate.

Shield wall - overlapping shields for increased stability.

Running down a spear - not just the normal deflect, but the quick flick before you run up someone's spear. The spearman's least favourite defence - because once you're past their spearpoint, with a quick flip of the shield, they have to be faster at running backwards than you are running forward. Then comes the last ditch "deflecting of the sword with my spear shaft" tactic of the spearman, or the "which hand was I holding my secondary dagger in again?". Kite shields are especially good for running down spears, because they're light and with the taper, they protect your legs quite well.

Table - Shields make hand table to put stuff on or to carry gear about on. Even wounded comrades if you have two to hold the shield.

Spear breaking - Generally shields are heavier than weapons. If you can pin a spear against the ground (or someone else's shield), bashing it with your shield is more likely to break it than than trying to hack the shaft with your weapon.

 

Things that shields are not good against-

 

If in formation, spears are a real annoyance. Lots of bashing by a spear can move you out of formation if not careful. However - they are generally ineffective and if they get stuck in the shield, the spearman is in trouble

The main problem from spears is crossing over. You have to pay attention to any sneaky bastards on your weapon side further down the line (say 2 or 3 people away)- they'll be trying to shove their spears into the weapon gap.

 

The real danger to shield use is polearms and to some extent, axes- especially in large groups. Many a time I had some polearm (or axe) pull open my shield (hook and pull) just in time for the guy's spear buddy to thrust through the gap.

 

On a realism note - axes, and especially two handed axes, will chew through shields fairly rapidly. So have spares.

[Susano]

Re: Shields

 

Having fought with sword and shield, I can say this -- if you know how to stand and how to hold your shield, the passive DCV bonus is fully justified. In stance, not moving my feet, I can block a lot of shots with minimal effort. However, I can only block shots to the front and shield side. Shots to the off-side (in this case my right) require me to turn.

 

A shield should use some sort of END. They get heavy, although period shields usually had shoulder straps and the like.

 

Sleight of Hand tricks can kill a newbie shield user. You feint one way, he overblocks, and you drill him in the now exposed portions of his body.

 

There are shots (in the SCA) designed to negate shields. Basically you are throwing sword blows around the shield to hit the body behind. These are not huge arcing shots (unless you're not doing it right), and can hit quite hard. This is simply an application of CSLs.

[Curufea]

Re: Shields

 

Another trick we used to do (in the AAF - a metal weapons group for an earlier period than the SCA) were to deliberately tire out shield users. Alternating head shots and leg shots means they either get tired quickly moving the shield up/down or they get slow and a shot gets through.

[Remjin]

Re: Shields

 

I did one of the ones with foam weapons... (so as to avoid needing to buy armor of any sort) and a lot of people resorted to flails to bypass shields. There was also a very large group of people who liked using larger shields that were much taller, kind of like tower shields, and when they got tired of holding it up (they could get quite heavy), they just put it on the ground and crouched a little instead. =)

 

Of course, my solution, being a user of a two-handed hammer, was to use the weight inherent in the weapon to knock shields out of my way or knock the entire person down... or to run in like that guy from Ong Bak with my knees and deflect any shots from their weapon side with my hammer. I guess one could define that as a move-through. =) I was closer to 220 lbs. back then, though.

 

Like Susano mentioned, the wrap-around shot going around the shield works pretty well, too, but as a whole I found mobility and some people's tendency to blind themselves when blocking with the shield, and went around them while they recovered from the initial blow straight on, giving 'em a good bop on the backside. =) Hmm... maybe... passing strike with some combat levels?

 

I still remember going to a big event where there was a shield wall, and being rather... er... compulsive... I launched myself over it. Worked pretty well the first time, got myself a bunch of 'em before I died. Not so well the second time, when I got impaled on a spear. Even with a lot of foam, I still hit the pole part underneath it all... thus ending my leaping forays for awhile. =D

[Curufea]

Re: Shields

 

I think the main tactic to remember with shields is - be aggressive. Just because it's a defence doesn't mean you should be passive. As we've mentioned - attackers are always trying to find ways around or through shields. If you have one, you shouldn't just sit there and take it. Provoke them, take opportunities and charge in when they appear.

If they have a heavy weapon - hit them with the shield, by the time they've recovered their weapon, you're on top of them. It's especially good if you have a short stabby weapon. Bear down on them, don't give them room to swing.

Defenders do often block their own sight with the shield - but you also can block the other person's sight. Try to hit them in the head with the shield (or if in real life re-enactment, move the shield up as if defending high but not hitting their head with it ), while you reach down and hamstring them.

[Susano]

Re: Shields

 

Another trick we used to do (in the AAF - a metal weapons group for an earlier period than the SCA) were to deliberately tire out shield users. Alternating head shots and leg shots means they either get tired quickly moving the shield up/down or they get slow and a shot gets through.

 

Which is why I, as the shield user, will throw shots back, to stop you from doing that.

[Remjin]

Re: Shields

 

We used to get a lot of people who shield rushed, or a group of them would get together and shield rush... that could be brutal, a lot of people used to run away... but I'm an idiot, and its not for real, so I always ran at them... usually died, but it was fun. =)

 

Aggressiveness seems to work well with a shield... I mean, who hasn't seen 300 now? =) Seems to me that shields are just to help you live, no point in changing your general way of fighting because you have one. A method the chinese used to use was to have a short, stout sword (often referred to as butterfly swords) and use it in conjunction with a shield. Typical position was more crouched, as to make a smaller target, and to cut at people's legs more while lifting the shield a bit to block downward blows (since they were crouched), thus giving room for all the leg cuts.

 

Dunno how you'd simulate that, though...