OIF: Items of Opportunity

[Zed-F]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

So the question might well by: Why aren't "brick tricks" priced at 1/10 cost like alternative to Ebs would be for a fire blaster player?

Because there's no reason a brick can't buy a MP of brick tricks just like the EB has a MP of blasts...

 

Because there's no reason that MP of brick tricks can't have attacks in it that increase the raw DCs the brick is able to throw...

 

I mean, seriously, there are enough people who think STR is too cheap as it is. Divorcing brick tricks from the standard power costing rules would be asking for trouble, not to mention opening a huge can of worms for how to balance such a change against other archetypes. Should Mentalists suddenly start getting more stuff for free just because they bought a bunch of EGO?

[GAZZA]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Now you've got it.

I like to pride myself on being intellectually honest, at least.

[GAZZA]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I mean' date=' seriously, there are enough people who think STR is too cheap as it is. Divorcing brick tricks from the standard power costing rules would be asking for trouble, not to mention opening a huge can of worms for how to balance such a change against other archetypes.[/quote']

I'm actually one of those who think STR is too cheap, surprisingly enough.

 

In addition I think there are some suggestions in the Ultimate Brick that are far more generous than anything I'm proposing:

• "Spreading your Strength". I was against allowing that option to RKAs, let alone Strength.
  
• Naked advantages in a Power Framework. (They're just bad, m'kay? ).

[Silbeg]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

• A hot dog cart might not qualify, but a car (more common than a hot dog cart, I should think) will certainly allow a full 16d6 for Brick #2, and it will probably be an Area Effect as well (so the OCV penalty doesn't mean much).

 

Of course, with the rule I was talking about, Brick A (without a defined power) would still have to spread his attack to get the AE effect while Brick B, with an EB AE OIF would get the full benefit without losing dice. Now, if the car is a typical midsized car, it would be 2.5" X 1.25" = 3.125 hexes. Using the rounding rules, make that 3 hexes, so Brick A gets a 13d6 attack, while Brick B (assuming his AE is big enough, 2"R would do it, though) gets 16d6.

 

The rule for this is on TUB51, "Spreading an Attack".

Note, that with a Brick Tricks "power stunt" either could do it...

[Zed-F]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

But then he paid points for that power skill.

[Silbeg]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I'm actually one of those who think STR is too cheap, surprisingly enough.

 

In addition I think there are some suggestions in the Ultimate Brick that are far more generous than anything I'm proposing:

• "Spreading your Strength". I was against allowing that option to RKAs, let alone Strength.
  
• Naked advantages in a Power Framework. (They're just bad, m'kay? ).

 

Now, these are two things that I would see as balancing the brick and the blaster, per tesuji's argument.

 

On the first had (UB51), I really like that rule. This rule allows bricks to use environment, etc., to increase the area of their STR attack, at the cost of damage. Without it, Grond swings a 5"X2" bus for 18D6, with it, he only gets 8d6. Bricks now have to pay for their "free" area of effect.

 

Now, like the new write-up of Ogre on UB121, the brick can get the variety of effects, much like a blaster with an EB. He still needs to buy the reserve, which is something that most bricks probably won't do (at least at character creation), since that reserve is typically without Limitations. But, with a Brick Tricks multipower, the "cookie cutter" 60 STR brick gets much more versatile.

 

The Shockwave and Arm Sweep powers are probably the only ones I see getting used very often, but both are decent.

 

Other than using an MP for this, you could give the brick a +1/2 Variable Advantage (or more) to use with his STR, but I like this even less for a variety of reasons.

 

However, if you don't like 'em, you have the choice not to allow them. Especially since they are explicitly prohibited under the vanilla Framework rules.

[Silbeg]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

But then he paid points for that power skill.

Ok, true enough.

[Metaphysician]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

One issue which might play a role is the difference between strength tricks and other power tricks.

 

If my firepower guy wants to have his 12d6 firebolt AND an 8d6 explosion "tirck" he buys a multipower and gets the trick for a fraction of its regular cost with lims reducing the cost.

 

If my 60 strength brick wans to have his 12d6 punch and an 8d6 explosion shockwave or air slap thingy, he pays full price with lims reducing the cost.

 

Simple example....

 

A brick and a fir blater are built on 350. One has strength 60 and the other has a 12d6 firebolt.

 

presumably they are balanced characters at this stage, unless one proposes that they cannot be.

 

Now they both decide to purchase the following ability:

 

7d6 Eb explosion self-immune no range

 

for the fire guy this is a nova type explosion

for the brick this is a thunderclap smacking hands sort of thing.

 

the fire guy puts this in a multipower and, if we start with a basic EB cost of 60, he pays for a multipower now for the two slots getting the 12d6 Eb and the 7d6 no range explosion for 71 cp (61 pool 6 blast 4 nova) or net result he spent 11 cp to add the new ability.

 

the brick adds his for 41 cp (61 cp power with -1/2 for no range.)

 

he cannot "multipower" that trick with his investment in strength, his basic punch.

 

But herein lies the rub... if the two characters each with the 12d6 attack were balanced to start with, then why is it suddenly worth 30 cp more for the brick to get the explosion option than for the blaster?

 

Now one can argue that the original two characters WERE NOT BALANCED, and that the penalty is finally catching up to the brick, but that makes no sense. you dont want "am i balanced" to be reliant on the player electing to at some point later take an overpriced effect to even things out.

 

One could point out that indeed the EB if bought "normally" might well be in an EC and thus cost only 30 cp, so the balance comes out closes but only UNTIL the fire player rewrites to a MP, if allowed.

 

So the question might well by: Why aren't "brick tricks" priced at 1/10 cost like alternative to Ebs would be for a fire blaster player?

 

Does a brick gain three times the benefit from a wrap-em-up entangle than the enforcer does from his force bands?

 

The Brick with 60 STR only spent 50 points to get his 12d6 attack, and for that 50 points, he *also* got +12 PD, +12 Recovery, and I think +30 to Stun. Therein lies the balancing factor: the brick has to spend more points to expand his basic attack power, because its not naturally a multipower. However, he gains a bunch of extra physical toughness for a slightly cheaper price in exchange.

 

And really, its *always* cheaper adding slots to multipowers, no matter the archetype. The only difference here, is the brick doesn't put his main attack inside a multipower.

[Tech]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Ultimately, taking a -1/2 OIF: Object of opportunity is a limitation. If it's used frequently or doesn't detract in some way, it's not limiting and thus, not a limitation.

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

 

Because there's no reason a brick can't buy a MP of brick tricks just like the EB has a MP of blasts...

that makes no sense. Sure it addresses the issue with th second third and fourth brick trick but it never addresses the initial overcharge.

Because there's no reason that MP of brick tricks can't have attacks in it that increase the raw DCs the brick is able to throw...

just as a blaster can have additional attacks at various levels too.

 

still not addressing the basic cost issue.

I mean, seriously, there are enough people who think STR is too cheap as it is. Divorcing brick tricks from the standard power costing rules would be asking for trouble, not to mention opening a huge can of worms for how to balance such a change against other archetypes.

this was what i addressed It sounds good at first sound byte but makes no sense.

 

There are two cases...

 

the initial trickless brikc is balanced with 60 str vs the blaster with 60 Eb or he is not.

 

If he IS balanced, then it makes sense to add similar capability to both should cost the same. It doesn't because the blaster can MP his explosion with his EB and the brick cannot do so with his explosion and his strength.

 

If he is imbalanced, prsumably favoring the brick, then that needs to be addressed right there, not by hoping the brick will be silly and buy an overpriced power later.

 

Saying we should overcharge bricks for other taits only iscourages them from taking other traits, it doesn't address any strength-related imbalance in cost IF such exists

 

Should Mentalists suddenly start getting more stuff for free just because they bought a bunch of EGO?

 

 

Again a good sound byte but not thought thru much at all...

 

No they shouldn't because EGO doesn't give them an attack. It gives them ECV for sure, but no attack. I am not, for instance, suggesting bricks should be able to MP extra attacks and their DEXTERITY.

 

On the other hand, the mentalist can take mind control or area of effect mental illusions as slots at 1/10 cost off of their Ego blast, which is where they paid for their attack.

 

the pricing for adding alternative attacks should be consistent.

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

The Brick with 60 STR only spent 50 points to get his 12d6 attack, and for that 50 points, he *also* got +12 PD, +12 Recovery, and I think +30 to Stun. Therein lies the balancing factor: the brick has to spend more points to expand his basic attack power, because its not naturally a multipower. However, he gains a bunch of extra physical toughness for a slightly cheaper price in exchange.

.

thats not a balancing factor.... its an imbalancing factor.

 

the brick had all those abilities as figs when it was just him and the EB guy neither with a norange blast. the two characters were the same cost. Were they balanced then?

 

if the answer is yes, the how can they also be balanced when the brick adds his explosion for 41 cp and the blaster adds his for 11?

 

if the answer is NO, they only become balanced after the brick buys an overpriced by 30 cp brick trick, then thats an incredibly bad process, since there is NO GUARANTEE the brick will buy such a power at all. All it does is strongly encourage very vanilla bricks in terms of what they can do.

 

Joe and Bob go to buy a new car. Joe asks about a sporty little deal with lots of speed and sexy exterior. Bob wants a minivan. I am willing to give them both the car they want for 50 grand a piece.

 

then they both ask for fuzzy dice to hang from th visor. I say "Joe that will cost 110 buck and Bob that will cost 410 bucks."

 

If i was willing to give them both the non-fuzzy dice car for the same price, then its rather odd of me to overcharge bob for fuzzy dice and claim its a balance thing.

 

And really, its *always* cheaper adding slots to multipowers, no matter the archetype. The only difference here, is the brick doesn't put his main attack inside a multipower.

 

which seems to strongly work against brick tricks, for no good reason, and lean heavily towards simpler more vanilla brick designs. Well, actually, it tends to drive the brick towards trying to get his Gm to use POWER SKILL optional rules a lot more for him, to avoid the inconsistent pricing issue.

 

IMO and IMX everyone should pay the same for fuzzy dice, regardless of archtype.

[Metaphysician]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Your arguing balance as being absent from an arbitary expenditure of 50-70 points. Of *course* it looks imbalanced. . . because no one is trying to balance the system on that scale.

 

The measure of balance is whether the whole character is balanced, relative to another whole character. The fact that the brick needs to spend about 40 points for gaining a Brick tricks multipower for a certain effect, whereas the EB only needs to spend 6, is ultimately irrelevant. Its whether or not, given 40 points each to spend, the Brick and Energy Blaster will both still be balanced with each other. And in general, they will, with the EB having more flexibility and range, while the Brick has more toughness and lifting capacity.

 

( if anything, the brick had the better deal here, on the margin- his 40 points purchased the option for much greater future flexibility. . . whereas even with 34 points free, the EB is unlikely to be able to match the brick's toughness )

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

 

Your arguing balance as being absent from an arbitary expenditure of 50-70 points. Of *course* it looks imbalanced. . . because no one is trying to balance the system on that scale.

I can certainly buy that a 30 cp difference in cost for an ability might be too small a difference to show up given the scale of the game as a point cutting into the merits of "why not charge both 11 cp?"

 

But, doesn't that also cut just as deeply into "we should charge the brick 41 cp and the blaster 11" as much as it cuts into "we chould charge both 11 for the same ability"????

 

 

The measure of balance is whether the whole character is balanced, relative to another whole character. The fact that the brick needs to spend about 40 points for gaining a Brick tricks multipower for a certain effect, whereas the EB only needs to spend 6, is ultimately irrelevant.

then why charge the brick 41 and the Eb guy 11? if the difference in cost is irrelevent, why not let both buy the same addition to their capabilities for th same price and thus have just ONE costing mechanic for additional attacks?

 

I get that 30 cp might not make the two characters imbalanced, and might be too small potatoes to muck with, but why then muck with it in the first place and charge them differently?

 

 

Its whether or not, given 40 points each to spend, the Brick and Energy Blaster will both still be balanced with each other. And in general, they will, with the EB having more flexibility and range, while the Brick has more toughness and lifting capacity.

I agrre that likely given 40 cp to spend they will, since I am starting from the notion that the vanilla brick and the vanilla blaster were balanced initially. What will likely happen is the brick WONT BE LIKELY spend his 40 cp on brick tricks, seeing how much they cost while the blaster will be likely spend on additional attacks given how little they cost. This leads to great variety for blasters but pretty vanilla bricks.

 

Now IMX, secondary attacks and variety attacks like being discussed here are FLAVOR not POWER. They add spice and fun but don't drastically affect the POWER or BALANCE of the character, so it baffles me why making bricks tricks rarer by slapping an overcharge on them is a good idea at all.

 

Especially iven your point about how the points don't balance down to the 30 cp level anyway, why charge bricks so much more for brick tricks when it wont affect their balance?

 

( if anything, the brick had the better deal here, on the margin- his 40 points purchased the option for much greater future flexibility. . . whereas even with 34 points free, the EB is unlikely to be able to match the brick's toughness )

 

So are you saying the characters were unbalanced before buying any tricks, with the vanilla brick and the vanilla blaster and only after we overcharge the brick for his first trick, but note not the second and third or fourth etc, they then get closer to balanced?

 

Does that seem like a good methodology to you? Allow the brick to be imbalanced unless he takes a couple overcharged optional effects?

 

Note IMX... summary time...

 

In superhero genres, a brick with 60 strength and a blaster with 12d6 attacks are usually pretty balanced in play. While the strength cost issue plays a more substantial role in heroic level games for some and is a theoretical boogeyman for many, in practice i haven't found bricks in supers games to be imbalanced.

 

Working from that premise, IMX and IMO i have also seen that typically alternative attacks are worth about the price of a multipower slot. They dont have a major impact on POWER but do add flexibility and fun to the character. their cost is appropriate at about the 1/10 level.

 

Working from both premises, IMO and to a lesser extent IMX, brik tricks for alternate attacks are overpriced when charged at full cost. the two characters as described should both wind up paying 11 cp to go from a 12d6 punch and a 12d6 EB to "and a 7d6 no range explosion with immunity". they will gain the same from it, and should pay the same to get that addition.

 

It doesn't make sense to overcharge the brick after the fact for other stuff to balance out his initial purchase. The brick will simply be prone to avoid those secondary purchases and you retain whatever imbalance you were trying to correct and get vanilla bricks to boot, a lose-lose.

 

NOTE A DISCLAIMER: I am avoiding going into widely varying multipowers since i believe there is an inherent problem with multipowers including widely varying effects. So I kept my example to a fairly discrete additional attack, non-ranged and normal damage etc to avoid other complications. While strictly legal i would not allow a widely different effect in a multipower, whether it be brick tricks or blaster options so it doesn't really apply. The subject is more applicable to a thread on multipowers in general.

[Reality Czech]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

... SNIP...

 

All in all, it came across as a rather twisted non-sequitur.

 

Alright, I'm used to being in the company of people who can find humor in being literally shot at, and those are the sort of people I find enjoy humor of this kind. So admittedly I should have considered my target audience before posting that. I see where you're coming from regarding the pertinence and humor of my statement, and I agree you have a point. It was a joke that would only be funny to a few twisted folks like me, and while there was a sequitur, it was easy to miss.

 

(I still think it was funny, however.)

[Metaphysician]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Tesuji, I think your confusing "unbalanced" for "different." The brick isn't unbalanced for having much higher defense, CON, and Stun, anymore than the EB is unbalanced for having better range and more various attacks. They are just different, and balance because their different abilities are both *useful*.

 

As for being willing to spend 40 points to get that brick trick? In a new york minute. . . because once you've passed that hurdle, you've now massively openned up your options for the future. Same reason an EB would save points for a long time so he can convert his multipower into a VPP.

[Zed-F]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Again a good sound byte but not thought thru much at all...

First off, lay off on the rhetoric. I could say much the same about your argument, with better justification. So, let's not go there, and concentrate on brass tacks, ok?

 

Here is what you asked:

So the question might well by: Why aren't "brick tricks" priced at 1/10 cost like alternative to Ebs would be for a fire blaster player?

 

Here is a generic EB's MP:

 

60 Fire powers (60 pt MP reserve)
6  1) Firebolt: 12d6 EB
6  2) Searing Heat: 6d6 EB, NND
6  3) Fireball: 8d6 EB, Explosion
6  4) Smoke: 6" Darkness

 

Now the brick could buy +50 STR to get a 60 STR. This will give him a 12d6 attack.

 

Your question is why he can't then buy brick tricks at 1/10 the cost. Let's see what happens.

50 +50 STR (60 STR total)
0  +10 PD, +10 REC, +25 STUN, +10" leap, +throwing/lifting capacity, etc.

0  Brick Tricks (based off 60 STR so a 60 pt MP reserve)
3  1) Enhanced Push: +60 STR, No Figured, x2 END Cost
6  2) Now THAT's a Knife: 3d6+1 HKA, Range Based on STR (6 1/2d6 w/ STR)
4  3) Shockwave Stomp: 8d6 HA Explosive Cone (16d6 EX with STR)
6  4) Brace for Impact: 50% Resistant Physical and Energy Damage Reduction 

 

A lot of brick tricks are also ways to increase the brick's combat potential by leveraging his existing STR, or other heightened figured characteristics acquired as a result of buying STR. So, by allowing brick tricks to be purchased without first purchasing an MP reserve, you allow the brick to double or more than double his attack and/or defense power, very inexpensively indeed. Exactly how is this a good idea?

 

A much better balanced version that still fits under a 60 AP cap would be to have the brick spend 20 or 30 points on his STR to get a 30 or 40, and then require him to buy a MP for his brick tricks, at full cost, exactly as the rules currently allow:

 

20 +20 STR (30 STR total)
0  +4 PD, +4 REC, +10 STUN, +4" leap, +throwing/lifting capacity, etc.

31 Brick Tricks (31 AP reserve)
1  1) Enhanced Push: +30 STR, No Figured, x2 END Cost
3  2) Now THAT's a Knife: 1 1/2d6 HKA, Range Based on STR (3d6+1 w/ STR)
2  3) Shockwave Stomp: 4d6 HA Explosive Cone (8d6 w/ STR)
3  4) Brace for Impact: 25% Resistant Physical and Energy Damage Reduction 

 

This way the brick STILL winds up cheaper than the EB -- he has more figured stats from his higher base STR and cheaper multipower slots -- but he's not completely out of the EB's ballpark as far as combat power level achieved for points spent goes. His tradeoff is that he's not got quite as much raw STR and figureds as a pure STR brick, and is not quite as good at special attacks that don't leverage his STR compared to the EB... but then, if he wants to be as powerful and flexible as an EB in that regard, he can always opt to spend the points on a bigger MP reserve (staying within any AP cap, of course.) Or, if he'd rather just go with more raw STR and figured characteristics, and skip the MP full of tricks, that option is still there.

 

Anyway you slice it, though, if you don't require points to be spent on the MP reserve for tricks to be added, you will wind up with double-and-more powerful bricks relative to every other archetype.

[Zed-F]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Note IMX... summary time...

 

In superhero genres, a brick with 60 strength and a blaster with 12d6 attacks are usually pretty balanced in play. While the strength cost issue plays a more substantial role in heroic level games for some and is a theoretical boogeyman for many, in practice i haven't found bricks in supers games to be imbalanced.

 

Working from that premise, IMX and IMO i have also seen that typically alternative attacks are worth about the price of a multipower slot. They dont have a major impact on POWER but do add flexibility and fun to the character. their cost is appropriate at about the 1/10 level.

 

Working from both premises, IMO and to a lesser extent IMX, brik tricks for alternate attacks are overpriced when charged at full cost. the two characters as described should both wind up paying 11 cp to go from a 12d6 punch and a 12d6 EB to "and a 7d6 no range explosion with immunity". they will gain the same from it, and should pay the same to get that addition.

The 'problem' here is that your experience does not match what the game system allows, and most likely it doesn't match many other people's playing experience. As I outlined in my previous post, it is perfectly legal and in many games encouraged, for brick tricks to directly impact power level.

 

In your own game, as a house rule, could you allow certain kinds of brick tricks without having to pay for an MP reserve? Probably. In fact, the easiest way to do it would probably be simply to have the brick(s) in question buy a power skill, and then be lenient when it comes to using that power skill. But to have brick tricks as a general rule be so cheap to buy? As a core rule? Not so much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I guess we just disagree. My position is that STR isn't "Energy Blast' date=' no Range"; it's not even "Hand to Hand Attack" - it can be used for more than just punching and squeezing things. There's a lift weight listed for STR, and I don't see why it's unreasonable for bricks to be able to lift things. There's rules for throwing stuff based on STR, and I don't see why it's unreasonable for bricks to be able to throw things. If that makes STR too cheap for what it buys, then it's too cheap. Balancing it by stripping away the essence of what STR does and requiring you to buy it back doesn't strike me as superior to simply increasing the cost, if that's what's needed. But YMMV.[/quote']

 

STR allows you to lift and swing a sword. Weapon familiarity allows you do do so without suffering a -3 penalty to OCV. I'm not arguing it should be impossible for the Brick to pick up and throw an object. I am arguing that he should not automatically be skilled at balancing and throwing a large, heavy, non-aerodynamic object and, as a consequence, converting his STR into an Area of Effect attack. More reasonably, he should require extra time, receive appropriate penalties for the lack of proficiency, the fact the object is not aerodynamic, perhaps the fact that while he is lifting it, it's blocking his field of vision, his being encumbered while lifting it, and the time required to lift it.

Should it automatically become AoE, or should his OCV be enhanced based on the size of the object? Should he get his full STR, his STR limited by the BOD/DEF of the object, or perhaps a reduction for the fact much of his STR went into lifting the object and he can't get as much force into the throw (try throwing a 50 kg bag of cement - will it hit as hard as throwing a baseballl?).

 

But he doesn't buy them with "appropriate objects of opportunity"' date=' either. If I staged a fight on an aeroplane in flight, and one of the heroes grabbed a parachute and jumped out the window, I wouldn't turn around and tell him that he couldn't do that, because he didn't buy "Gliding, OIF: objects of opportunity". I don't think [i']anybody[/i] would. And from my perspective that's a close analogy to some of these "brick trick" powers.

 

Nope. I might ask where his character has any background in parachuting. Did he don it before jumping? If so, how much time did it take? If not, will the wind resistance rip it from his grasp? What rolls need he make to don it in mid-fall? Can he control speed and direction of descent? If so, does he need to make skill-type rolls to do so? Does he actually know how to use the chute, or might he injure himself in the usage?

 

Now, the answers to many of these would be different if he took TF: Parachute, just like that sword would be more effective if he had WF: Sword. If he buys it as a power, the TF or WF comes with the power itself, so he knows how to use it.

 

I just don't agree that the brick is doing anything that he hasn't already paid points for. Where you see "He's getting a free AoE attack" I see "He's used his STR to pick up and throw a car".

 

Certainly if you pay points for such abilities (thereby turning them into a power) you get more capabilities (it's been pointed out that picking up and throwing a car is 2 phases; buying it as a power at the very least should carve that time down), but the basic capabilities are (IMHO) still there.

 

The issue is how much benefit those basic capabilities do, or should, provide.

 

Now granted that's an extreme' date=' but that's the slope that it leads to.[/quote']

 

The other extreme is "I can use my environment to accomplish anything I can justify with comic book physics, with no risk of failure". The best answer lies somewhere between the two extremes, and we're really just looking for where between those extremes. To me, there is an element of fairness that the advantages given to STR should not be significantly greater, or lesser, to those given to an EB.

 

I don't really agree that STR is a special effect - it's a mechanical effect' date=' that can be justified by many [i']special[/i] effects. STR allows you to punch things, squeeze things, lift things, and throw things. To my mind that includes:

• Picking things up and whacking people with them. There are rules for doing this. I find it strange that they don't make any reference to needing to have bought an appropriate EB with the OIF limitation.

 
I find it strange they don't refer to the penalties for using such unusual, unweildy and/or heavy objects as a weapon.
 

Picking things up and throwing them at people. Again' date=' there are rules for doing this.[/list']

 
Again, this doesn't address encumbrance, weight factor or other penalties which, in many cases, are demanded by "realism" to the same extent the simple ability to pick them up and throw them is demanded by that same "realism".
 

It doesn't allow you to do these sorts of things:

• Squeezing the breath out of a target such that only their lack or need to breathe counts. No rules for that (well, Choke Hold, I suppose, kind of). But it's a power that seems justifiable to strong characters, and some will have it.
  
• Smacking the ground and sending a shockwave through it that knocks people over. There's no rules for that. But it sounds like something a strong character might be able to do, and some will have such a power.
  
• Leaping for miles. There's rules for allowing you to leap, but not that far. Still, it's sounds fair for strong characters, and some may be able to do this.

Retraction: Hoist by my own petard, I am forced to conclude that "Leaping for miles" is a classic example of "anyone can do it; I paid points to do it better", so I will concede that paying points for the ability to more efficiently throw stuff and whack people with stuff has "prior art" - the key phrase being more efficiently, though, since I still maintain "normal" bricks can still do it, just not necessarily as well.

 

Just as you say - it allows you to leap, but not as far, as fast or as accurately as someone who spent more points on the ability. In my view, it also allows you to swing, or throw, heavy objects - but it should not allow this to be as easy, as accurate or as effective as it would be for someone who pays points for the ability.

 

I do appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that issue above.

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Anyway you slice it, though, if you don't require points to be spent on the MP reserve for tricks to be added, you will wind up with double-and-more powerful bricks relative to every other archetype.

 

Sorry I forgot, i literally do have to spell everything out when posting here and should not assume people understand the context.

 

Can an EB blaster player buy in his multipower a 12d6 slot and another 12d6 slot and combine them to get a 24d6 blast?

 

Nope.

 

We all agree there? Good.

 

So my more painstakingly detailed to avoid misunderstanding question is, "why not allow a brick to buy his alternate attacks brick tricks AS IF they were in a multipower with his strength, for 1/10 the cost, under the same kind of restrictions which apply within the campaign for other multipowers?"

 

No I am not proposing he be able to buy +60 strength and stack it with his own, or a big HKA and add in strength to boot anymore than suggesting a 12d6 eb and 7d6 explosion in a multipower would be stackable either. thats not how multipowers work and I did assumed anyone discussing with me about this would get that... but i was mistaken. Wont make that error again.

 

NOTE TO SELF: SELF, remember your audience!

 

hopefully this has cleared that up.... as far as the attacks go.

 

As for the Dr slot, if you would allow a blaster to put that in his Mp and apply when his force field was up and both the brick and the blaster still fit within campaign restrictions, why not same for the brick? Why would a blaster get a pass on tacking extra defensive "force field boost" as A DR slot under his EB multipower but the brick not?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

One issue which might play a role is the difference between strength tricks and other power tricks.

 

If my firepower guy wants to have his 12d6 firebolt AND an 8d6 explosion "tirck" he buys a multipower and gets the trick for a fraction of its regular cost with lims reducing the cost.

 

If my 60 strength brick wans to have his 12d6 punch and an 8d6 explosion shockwave or air slap thingy, he pays full price with lims reducing the cost.

 

Technically, the Brick can MPA with his STR and his shockwave. The Fire Blaster cannot. This argument does not necessarily indicate that requiring the Brick to pay for his Brick tricks is unbalanced. It can just as easily indicate that the Multipower (and, by extension, other frameworks) is unbalanced.

 

The Brisk's STR or Shockwave can be AID ed by a single application of the Aid power. To enhance the EB or the Shockwave for Fireguy requires two Aids, one to enhance the pool and a second to enhance the specific power.

 

7d6 Eb explosion self-immune no range

 

for the fire guy this is a nova type explosion

for the brick this is a thunderclap smacking hands sort of thing.

 

the fire guy puts this in a multipower and, if we start with a basic EB cost of 60, he pays for a multipower now for the two slots getting the 12d6 Eb and the 7d6 no range explosion for 71 cp (61 pool 6 blast 4 nova) or net result he spent 11 cp to add the new ability.

 

the brick adds his for 41 cp (61 cp power with -1/2 for no range.)

 

If Nova Guy wants to be able to MPA his explosion and his EB, he must pay the same 61 points the Brick pays. The problem appears to be that the Lockout limitation (or "cannot MPA" limitation) is underpriced, since the Brick cannot use this limitation on his STR and/or explosion to reduce the cost of adding the explosion (to be used only when not using his STR) to the same cost the Fire Projector pays for his explosion.

 

BTW, FireGuy II, who already had a Multipower, only paid 5 points (1 to boost the pool to 61 and 4 for the slot). Is it also unreasonable (admitteldy on a lesser scale) that FireGuy I must pay over twice as much? Again, it seems the problem lies in the frameworks, and not in the abilities themselves.

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

 

The 'problem' here is that your experience does not match what the game system allows, and most likely it doesn't match many other people's playing experience. As I outlined in my previous post, it is perfectly legal and in many games encouraged, for brick tricks to directly impact power level.

Actually the problem was that we had a misunderstanding about the limitations of what I was suggesting because i didn't include the "as if in a multipower with strength" details in the sentence you quoted.

 

Once the multipower is treated like every other multipower, the power issue works more like what I described.

In your own game, as a house rule, could you allow certain kinds of brick tricks without having to pay for an MP reserve? Probably. In fact, the easiest way to do it would probably be simply to have the brick(s) in question buy a power skill, and then be lenient when it comes to using that power skill. But to have brick tricks as a general rule be so cheap to buy? As a core rule? Not so much.

 

As atated earlie,r one result of the rule is just what you describe... driving bricks toawrds looking for other, more appropriately priced, ways to get the same versatility... power skill being the most likely candidate.

 

For my money however, I dont like to have that be a difference. if a brick player wants three alternative attacks (punch, Xp clap and NND choke), I dont see driving him towards a POWER SKILL solution while driving the blaster wanting three blast attacks (eb, Xp, NND death ray) to use the simpler more defined multipower. I do not see how the SFX "hand to hand attacks" is so vastly different from "energy blasts" as to justify forcing or even driving them to use two entirely different mechanisms to achieve the same versatility.

 

So if you have a moment, please do tell me why, if this is the case, you feel a brick who wants to have a punch and xp clap and a nnd choke all at 60 ap levelsshould get these by means of POWER SKILL while a blaster wanting the same three kind of energy blasts should get them by way of multipower?

 

If you think both should get them by way of multipower slots, why should the brick pay 30 cp more to get his?

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Technically' date=' the Brick can MPA with his STR and his shockwave. The Fire Blaster cannot. [/quote']

 

Communication failure on my part... this may take years to resolve the confusion...

 

The brick tricks slots i am proposing would be treated AS IF THEY WERE IN A MULTIPOWER WITH THE STRENGTH.

 

So the same restrictions on "can i use my Eb and Xp at the same time" would apply to "can i combine my shockwave and a regular punch"

 

I had thought that clear from my repeated use of the term ALTERNATIVE attacks and the discussion of what this was stemming from, but it would have been better had i spelled it out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Communication failure on my part... this may take years to resolve the confusion...

 

The brick tricks slots i am proposing would be treated AS IF THEY WERE IN A MULTIPOWER WITH THE STRENGTH.

 

So the same restrictions on "can i use my Eb and Xp at the same time" would apply to "can i combine my shockwave and a regular punch"

 

I had thought that clear from my repeated use of the term ALTERNATIVE attacks and the discussion of what this was stemming from, but it would have been better had i spelled it out.

 

With this in mind, I stand by my suggestion that the problem lies with frameworks. If, instead, these powers could be purchased with limitations simulating the framework restrictions which reduced their costs to the same level, this would resolve the concern.

 

One question - since the Brick, under your model, may use either his STR or his Shockwave, does he lose the figured stats arising from his STR while he has the "pool" invested in his Shockwave attack? If not, he is still getting benefits from his STR while using the Shockwave. If so, why not just allow him to buy his STR as a multipower slot?

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

BTW, FireGuy II, who already had a Multipower, only paid 5 points (1 to boost the pool to 61 and 4 for the slot). Is it also unreasonable (admitteldy on a lesser scale) that FireGuy I must pay over twice as much? Again, it seems the problem lies in the frameworks, and not in the abilities themselves.

 

Actually, that isn't a problem. the more alternative attacks you have the less they matter. That is one of the predominent reasons why multipowers have such a steep price cut... more options do not count in as much as more power does.

 

The first "alternate attack" is ALWAYS the most expensive (of equivalent slots in type and size) because it requires paying for the original power slot and the new slot. After that, all slots cost only one set.

 

So the net result is one power is costly, adding a second is cheaper, adding a third is even cheaper and the cost levels after that.

 

if thats causing a problem, then it could be addressed, but it doesn;t to me seem to be a problem here.

 

As for the origin of the problem being with the framework, sure, it is. if Strength were allowable to be normally bought in a multpower, then a brick wanting brick tricks would do so. mechanically, that would work just fine as a solution, it is in essence what I am suggesting when i say treat the brick tricks AS IF THEY WERE IN A MULTIPOWER WITH THE STRENGTH.

 

But you wont normally see this because of the framework rules on putting strength in a multipower.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Actually' date=' that isn't a problem. the more alternative attacks you have the less they matter. That is one of the predominent reasons why multipowers have such a steep price cut... more options do not count in as much as more power does.[/quote']

 

With that in mind, why does the 3rd attack and the 30th attack cost the same? I guess at some point, you rebuild the MP as a VPP and there's then no additional cost.

 

As for the origin of the problem being with the framework, sure, it is. if Strength were allowable to be normally bought in a multpower, then a brick wanting brick tricks would do so. mechanically, that would work just fine as a solution, it is in essence what I am suggesting when i say treat the brick tricks AS IF THEY WERE IN A MULTIPOWER WITH THE STRENGTH.

 

But you wont normally see this because of the framework rules on putting strength in a multipower.

 

To point out the obvious, we must have cross-posted