OIF: Items of Opportunity

[Zed-F]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Uh... ok...

 

Is the nun supposed to be Batman in disguise or something? 'Cause that one made no sense.

[Silbeg]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I like this idea. A lot.

 

Glad to be of service.

 

I know that once my players got used to this idea, they really seem to like it, too. Gives the bricks more options, without giving them more "freebies".

[Silbeg]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Uh... ok...

 

Is the nun supposed to be Batman in disguise or something? 'Cause that one made no sense.

 

I have to agree...

 

I am confused.

[Victim]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Ordinarily, exploiting an environmental feature (let's say tossing a car) might involve finding a suitable object (placed at GM whim), moving over to it, picking it up, and then finally using it. And then it might do less than damage based on DEF+BODY. The guy with the OIF has learned to grab most any handy object, scoop it up, and launch it in the same motion. The trick can save lots of time in a heated combat.

 

It's convient, and if character is putting the tricks in an MP it doesn't cost that must extra per trick.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Uh... ok...

 

Is the nun supposed to be Batman in disguise or something? 'Cause that one made no sense.

 

I have to agree...

 

I am confused.

 

The man is drunk, and can't see strait, and sees the nun in the mostly black outfit and thinks "Ah! That's Batman!"

[Reality Czech]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

The man is drunk' date=' and can't see strait, and sees the nun in the mostly black outfit and thinks "Ah! That's Batman!"[/quote']

 

Thanks, I feel vindicated now that one person followed this joke... personally I think it's hysterical.

Of course, being in the Army I've seen a lot of guys do things just this boneheaded when drunk, so maybe it made more sense to me than I should have reasonably expected to in general circulation.

[OddHat]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Thanks, I feel vindicated now that one person followed this joke... personally I think it's hysterical.

Of course, being in the Army I've seen a lot of guys do things just this boneheaded when drunk, so maybe it made more sense to me than I should have reasonably expected to in general circulation.

 

I once saw a drunk assault a nun in a train station, if that helps.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I once saw a drunk assault a nun in a train station' date=' if that helps.[/quote']

To be fair, she was giving me attitude.

 

You can't trust a nun in a train station...

[Reality Czech]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I once saw a drunk assault a nun in a train station' date=' if that helps.[/quote']

 

A little, yeah.

[Reality Czech]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

To be fair, she was giving me attitude.

 

You can't trust a nun in a train station...

 

Words to live by.

[GAZZA]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Show me a few things that archetypes other than Bricks can do with their environment and I might be more inclined to credit this argument.

I accept your challenge, but I need to widen the definition a bit. I think it is fair to say that it isn't so much that bricks can sometimes use the environment "for free" that is potentially unbalancing, so much as the fact that they can get effectiveness from their STR beyond the obvious. Fair enough? Under this definition the brick gets even more effectiveness for free (they are able to lift burning cars off trapped survivors, or stop vehicles before they hit the gap in the bridge, and so on).

 

But I can't assume you allow me that wiggle room, so for my first few examples I'll stick with environmental effects:

• Fire-based Energy Projectors often can make a lot of use of things in their environment. "Movie Physics" says that if you hit a car with even a match it instantly explodes. And setting something on fire to provide a distraction is a time honoured technique that even FireWing would be proud to use. Those with other special effects have corresponding options - an ice based EP can freeze water that might provide a free low level Change Environment, a sonic based EP might get extra dice if their target is in water, and so forth.
  
• Any Energy Projector can make use of their powers to destroy parts of the environment that are out of reach for bricks. For example, they can destroy the lights to plunge the room into darkness, or smash the security cameras to provide themselves with functional "invisibility". More generally - bricks don't have a monopoly on "breaking stuff", and while anything a brick can break can also be broken by an EP, the reverse is not true (assuming of course similar levels of AP here).
  
• With the extended definition of "environment" above... mentalists get a lot of extra utility from their powers. A telepathic mind controller can duplicate the effects of virtually any Interaction skill, and they often can duplicate many Intellect based skills as well (for example, they might simply read the mind of someone to get a clue and obviate the need for Deduction).
  
• Metamorphs can often duplicate some of the mentalist tricks above (turn into someone that looks like a trusted confidante, and get a free bonus to Conversation and Persuasion rolls, etc). In addition they can infiltrate bystanders or police to get free "stealth" or information gathering (impersonating is an extremely useful ability; one of my players gets a lot more out of Shapeshift than the point value initially suggests).

In a more general sense, many archetypes get a lot more non-combat effectiveness from their powers than bricks do, and few of the things that bricks can do are unique to bricks.

 

I still maintain, though, that it's more to do with how the abilities have been described in Ultimate Brick than their actual effects that bothers me - I'm a stickler like that, I suppose.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I accept your challenge, but I need to widen the definition a bit. I think it is fair to say that it isn't so much that bricks can sometimes use the environment "for free" that is potentially unbalancing, so much as the fact that they can get effectiveness from their STR beyond the obvious. Fair enough? Under this definition the brick gets even more effectiveness for free (they are able to lift burning cars off trapped survivors, or stop vehicles before they hit the gap in the bridge, and so on).

 

But I can't assume you allow me that wiggle room, so for my first few examples I'll stick with environmental effects:

• Fire-based Energy Projectors often can make a lot of use of things in their environment. "Movie Physics" says that if you hit a car with even a match it instantly explodes. And setting something on fire to provide a distraction is a time honoured technique that even FireWing would be proud to use. Those with other special effects have corresponding options - an ice based EP can freeze water that might provide a free low level Change Environment, a sonic based EP might get extra dice if their target is in water, and so forth.
  
• Any Energy Projector can make use of their powers to destroy parts of the environment that are out of reach for bricks. For example, they can destroy the lights to plunge the room into darkness, or smash the security cameras to provide themselves with functional "invisibility". More generally - bricks don't have a monopoly on "breaking stuff", and while anything a brick can break can also be broken by an EP, the reverse is not true (assuming of course similar levels of AP here).
  
• With the extended definition of "environment" above... mentalists get a lot of extra utility from their powers. A telepathic mind controller can duplicate the effects of virtually any Interaction skill, and they often can duplicate many Intellect based skills as well (for example, they might simply read the mind of someone to get a clue and obviate the need for Deduction).
  
• Metamorphs can often duplicate some of the mentalist tricks above (turn into someone that looks like a trusted confidante, and get a free bonus to Conversation and Persuasion rolls, etc). In addition they can infiltrate bystanders or police to get free "stealth" or information gathering (impersonating is an extremely useful ability; one of my players gets a lot more out of Shapeshift than the point value initially suggests).

In a more general sense, many archetypes get a lot more non-combat effectiveness from their powers than bricks do, and few of the things that bricks can do are unique to bricks.

 

I still maintain, though, that it's more to do with how the abilities have been described in Ultimate Brick than their actual effects that bothers me - I'm a stickler like that, I suppose.

 

Many of those points above are GM dependant, like the Bricks using the environment.

 

All that paying for a power does, as Oddhat pointed out, is put some control into the Players hands as to the effects of their powers.

 

Take Fire Guy exploding cars. The GM can say he didn't hit the gas tank, or the damage wasn't enough to set it off. But if he paid points: Energy Blast, Exposion, Requires A Nearby Car then that explosion goes off anytime the Player uses it on a nearby car.

 

The points paid is a form of Control Balance. No Points = All in the GMs Hands. Points = The player taking some of that control for himself.

 

None of the effects OIF: Object Of Opportunity are about removing the ability of those who didn't pay points to achieve the same effect. Common Sense still stands. But paying points for it leverages a higher form of reliability in obtaining the desired results.

[GAZZA]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Many of those points above are GM dependant' date=' like the Bricks using the environment.[/quote']

Without argument. Of course.

 

All that paying for a power does, as Oddhat pointed out, is put some control into the Players hands as to the effects of their powers.

There seems to be three main schools of thought here.

1. Someone with the OIF can do it better/quicker than someone without.
   
2. Having the OIF means that the GM will make sure you get opportunities; not having it means the GM won't care.
   
3. Someone with OIF will get opportunities that do not exist for those without.

(These aren't mutually exclusive).

 

School 1 meets my "I can do it, you can't" rule of thumb for "should this be a power?", but it is perhaps (arguably) overpriced for many of these effects. It's basically the difference between "I can throw this car as a half phase action" and "you can throw the car as a full phase action, because you have to pick it up first". Worth having? Yes. But the cost should be commensurate with the utility.

 

School 2 is fine, but it opens itself up to the possibility of competing characters where only one of them paid points. You can ask the other bricks not to step on the schticks, of course, but it feels artificial (to me, at least).

 

School 3 works great as long as you properly define the ability (so that, for example, a brick with the ability to pick up and use any "item of opportunity" as an AE:1 Hex advantage on his STR is allowed to use items that would not provide that benefit for those without that ability - any brick could do this with a car, say, but a brick who pays points can do it with even another character who he has previously Grabbed).

 

My argument is that Schools 1 and 2 still require a certain amount of GM assistance, and that with School 2 the GM who assists a character who pays the points will inadvertently also assist other characters who didn't pay. I think most powers should try and shoot for School 3 interpretations, as these are the least controversial (IMHO).

 

Take Fire Guy exploding cars. The GM can say he didn't hit the gas tank, or the damage wasn't enough to set it off. But if he paid points: Energy Blast, Exposion, Requires A Nearby Car then that explosion goes off anytime the Player uses it on a nearby car.

Absolutely the GM can say this. But that means the power costs nothing for some campaigns, and a lot more than nothing for others. To a certain extent this is always going to be unavoidable (for instance, I personally don't require supers to pay points for "normal technology" like cell phones or even normal cars, but many GMs do - and that's fine), but ideally it would be nice to minimise this sort of thing.

 

To compare again: in many circumstances, if it was dramatically appropriate, many GMs would allow the Fire Guy to blow up the car without paying points; many GMs would only really consider not allowing it if there existed other characters in the campaign that had paid points for the ability. Once any character anywhere has paid points for a power, in the interests of fairness those who have not paid for it should not be able to do it. And in my opinion this closes more doors than it opens - but YMMV.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I once saw a drunk assault a nun in a train station' date=' if that helps.[/quote']Full story, please, Mr. Oddhat, sir?

 

TB

[Gideon]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Without argument. Of course.

 

 

There seems to be three main schools of thought here.

1. Someone with the OIF can do it better/quicker than someone without.
   
2. Having the OIF means that the GM will make sure you get opportunities; not having it means the GM won't care.
   
3. Someone with OIF will get opportunities that do not exist for those without.

(These aren't mutually exclusive).

 

School 1 meets my "I can do it, you can't" rule of thumb for "should this be a power?", but it is perhaps (arguably) overpriced for many of these effects. It's basically the difference between "I can throw this car as a half phase action" and "you can throw the car as a full phase action, because you have to pick it up first". Worth having? Yes. But the cost should be commensurate with the utility.

 

School 2 is fine, but it opens itself up to the possibility of competing characters where only one of them paid points. You can ask the other bricks not to step on the schticks, of course, but it feels artificial (to me, at least).

 

School 3 works great as long as you properly define the ability (so that, for example, a brick with the ability to pick up and use any "item of opportunity" as an AE:1 Hex advantage on his STR is allowed to use items that would not provide that benefit for those without that ability - any brick could do this with a car, say, but a brick who pays points can do it with even another character who he has previously Grabbed).

 

My argument is that Schools 1 and 2 still require a certain amount of GM assistance, and that with School 2 the GM who assists a character who pays the points will inadvertently also assist other characters who didn't pay. I think most powers should try and shoot for School 3 interpretations, as these are the least controversial (IMHO).

 

 

Absolutely the GM can say this. But that means the power costs nothing for some campaigns, and a lot more than nothing for others. To a certain extent this is always going to be unavoidable (for instance, I personally don't require supers to pay points for "normal technology" like cell phones or even normal cars, but many GMs do - and that's fine), but ideally it would be nice to minimise this sort of thing.

 

To compare again: in many circumstances, if it was dramatically appropriate, many GMs would allow the Fire Guy to blow up the car without paying points; many GMs would only really consider not allowing it if there existed other characters in the campaign that had paid points for the ability. Once any character anywhere has paid points for a power, in the interests of fairness those who have not paid for it should not be able to do it. And in my opinion this closes more doors than it opens - but YMMV.

I think your missing something here.

 

These powers aren't as overprices as you think. Remember having a 16d6 OIF physical EB can have alot of advantages over just haveing a 80 (16d6) STR other than simply taking less time. Lets say the closest convienent item for the brick to pick up and toss is a hot-dog cart (3 DEF, 8 BODY).

 

Brick #1 has the OIF EB. He picks up and hurls the hot-dog cart at the villian as a single half phase action and deals 16d6 damage.

 

Brick #2 has only his 80 STR. He picks up the cart as a half phase action, and hurls it as a second half phase action (taking more time), he ALSO takes an OCV penelty for non-aerodinamic non-balanced object AND he only deals 11d6 damage because that is the items DEF+BODY.

 

Thats a difference of a half phase action, at least 3 OCV, AND a 5d6 damage.

 

Now granted if brick 1 and brick 2 were in the same fight than that hot-dog cart could be flung by either one of them. I don't think you should need to ask brick 2 to not throw the cart because brick 1 has a thrown object shtick. Brick 2 simply needs to be reminded that having brick 1 throw the cart is more effective. If he chooses to throw the cart anyway so be it, there is more than likely something else Brick 1 can find to throw (perhapse a manhole cover or large slab of tarmac).

 

With other powers (like say entangle) I would say that withouth having the power using an I-beam to tie someone up could hurt the person, would be much easier to break free from, and would take more time.

 

Also some attempts at "using a power" without paying points for it shouls simply fail. I mentioned my x-games guy (he's a bit like night-thrasher from New Warriors). There was an incodent where he was chasing someone and didn't have his skateboard. Because the power on the sheet is +10" running OIF object of oppertunity, I was allowed to vault onto a NYC corner hot-dog cart (see a theme here) and ride it like a skateboard after the guy. Had I not purchased the power with object of oppertunity, my GM never would have let me catch up to him buy riding something so definately not ment to be used as a vehicle.

[OddHat]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Full story, please, Mr. Oddhat, sir?

 

TB

 

Nothing that exciting. For those who don't want to read something entirely off topic, spoiler tags.

Buddhist nuns and monks sometimes used to stand around the Shinjuku station, begging bowl on the floor in front of them, hoping for donations and praying. This pissed a lot of Japanese off, as (a) they interfered with foot traffic in an already crowded station, ( the red light district was accessed by going out of the station exit where the nuns set up shop, which added another layer of potential embarrassment to an evening's trip to the cheap massage parlors. The trains themselves stopped running at 11:00 or 12:00, which meant that you had a limited time after work to get drunk, find a little companionship, and get home (you could take a taxi, but prices go up after the trains stop). The end result is a fair number of older drunks in the station at night, heading for the last trains.

 

Sometimes the drunks get in short, ugly pushing matches and fist fights. When returning home myself after work, I once saw one middle aged drunk start shoving at and grabbing a nun. His buddy, equally drunk, pulled him away, and the two of them moved away from the scene. The nun straightened out her costume and seemed OK. That was pretty much it.

 

Like I said, not much of a story.

 

[GAZZA]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

These powers aren't as overprices as you think. Remember having a 16d6 OIF physical EB can have alot of advantages over just haveing a 80 (16d6) STR other than simply taking less time. Lets say the closest convienent item for the brick to pick up and toss is a hot-dog cart (3 DEF, 8 BODY).

Thing is:

• you could quite reasonably (as a GM) restrict Brick #1 to 11d6 damage as well (it depends how he's defined his power)
  
• A hot dog cart might not qualify, but a car (more common than a hot dog cart, I should think) will certainly allow a full 16d6 for Brick #2, and it will probably be an Area Effect as well (so the OCV penalty doesn't mean much).
  
• Brick #2 can spend some points to offset OCV penalties for throwing things and still come up with a lot of change compared to Brick #1. Does he match Brick #1 completely? No, but he gets a bargain.

But I think more fundamentally this comes down a lot to GM styles. As a GM I expect the environment to be a part of any battle - if the PCs don't use it the villains most certainly will. As such I often include things for different characters to make use of if they're clever and pay attention, and I don't really consider that "cheating" - but I can certainly respect that others might, and that by acting this way some characters become inordinately effective.

 

However, if I got around to the idea that bricks were getting too much value from being able to chuck stuff, I suspect my solution would be to make chucking stuff harder - not require powers to do so. The latter approach is valid, but I find it aesthetically displeasing.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

However' date=' if I got around to the idea that bricks were getting too much value from being able to chuck stuff, I suspect my solution would be to make chucking stuff harder - not require powers to do so. The latter approach is valid, but I find it aesthetically displeasing.[/quote']

 

I think this is where the disconnect in this conversation is coming.

 

No-one is suggesting that powers are required to be able to chuck stuff. Simply that you point out to a player that he can chuck stuff but that you will have much of the control over what is available to chuck, how easy it will be to use that and how much damage will result from it.

 

The player can decide that he wants to take some of that control away from you and then decides how much he wants to pay for that privilage. The more the player takes, the more it costs. Obviously if all he takes is the damage then he can limit the power not simply by OIF but 'restricted damage', OCV penalties as well (for example increased range multiple) and even extra time.

 

Obviously the closer he gets to the free version of chucking things the more he has to think about whether the points are worth it - but the points will be much less than simply purchasing an EB....

 

Of course - a lot of brick tricks are put in multipowers making cost the least of their worries and it is simply a matter of ensuring that they have the control rather than the GM in a multitude of situations.

 

 

Doc

[GAZZA]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

One interpretation would be that "items of opportunity" is intended to skew the game a bit on the simulationist - narrative axis; the player is buying the right to say, "actually, GM, it seems that there's something here I can throw at the guy".

 

I like narrative games (Amber is one of my favourites, and I intend to finally get a HeroQuest game going some time), and I like simulationist games, but I like them for different reasons.

 

It's purely semantics. While I'm not fond of:

Chucking Things:

12d6 Energy Blast (physical), OIF: available items of opportunity (-1/2), range based on STR (-1/4)

I don't really have an issue with:

Chucking Things:

12d6 Energy Blast (physical), restrainable (-1/2), range based on STR (-1/4), must have something nearby to throw (-0)

They cost the same, and they're mechanically identical. But the latter is more explicit that the thing you're throwing doesn't have to be something that could normally do 12d6 damage (otherwise the limitation would be worth more than -0 - there's always something around to throw). And Restrainable seems appropriate since you can't throw something if your hands are restrained.

[ghost-angel]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

School 1 meets my "I can do it' date=' you can't" rule of thumb for "should this be a power?", but it is perhaps (arguably) overpriced for many of these effects. It's basically the difference between "I can throw this car as a half phase action" and "[b']you can throw the car as a full phase action, because you have to pick it up first[/b]." Worth having? Yes. But the cost should be commensurate with the utility.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Two Phases. Phase 1 - Grab Object. Phase 2 - Throw Object At Target

 

By paying the points you're removing the Phase 2 from the equation. Which can be a BIG deal.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

But I can't assume you allow me that wiggle room, so for my first few examples I'll stick with environmental effects:

• Fire-based Energy Projectors often can make a lot of use of things in their environment. "Movie Physics" says that if you hit a car with even a match it instantly explodes. And setting something on fire to provide a distraction is a time honoured technique that even FireWing would be proud to use. Those with other special effects have corresponding options - an ice based EP can freeze water that might provide a free low level Change Environment, a sonic based EP might get extra dice if their target is in water, and so forth.

 
By the same movie physics, the car should explode on impact when tossed by, or running into, the Brick. And throwing a car at the other side of the building also creates a very effective distraction. So far, nothing the Brick can't already do. I'm not seeing anything in the above that's on a par with "get a +1/2 AoE 1 hex advantage on your power for free because there's a large object in the area".
 

Any Energy Projector can make use of their powers to destroy parts of the environment that are out of reach for bricks. For example' date=' they can destroy the lights to plunge the room into darkness, or smash the security cameras to provide themselves with functional "invisibility". More generally - bricks don't have a monopoly on "breaking stuff", and while anything a brick can break can also be broken by an EP, the reverse is not true (assuming of course similar levels of AP here).[/quote']
 
Yup - Energy Blast comes with Range. STR comes with Figured Characteristics. Removing either is a -1/2 limitation, so that seems to balance out, prima facie. Of course, we then get into the argument about the value of figured characteristics, which is just a variant on the "Is STR Overpriced" issue.
 

With the extended definition of "environment" above... mentalists get a lot of extra utility from their powers. A telepathic mind controller can duplicate the effects of virtually any Interaction skill' date=' and they often can duplicate many Intellect based skills as well (for example, they might simply read the mind of someone to get a clue and obviate the need for Deduction).[/quote']
 
Ummm...that IS what telepathic mind control does. It doesn't also inflict damage. I could buy a lot of Interaction Skills and levels with them for the cost of an effective telepathic Mind Control that costs no END. Similarly, 30 points (a paltry 6d6 Telepathy that still costs END) would buy an obscene Deduction roll.
 

Metamorphs can often duplicate some of the mentalist tricks above (turn into someone that looks like a trusted confidante' date=' and get a free bonus to Conversation and Persuasion rolls, etc). In addition they can infiltrate bystanders or police to get free "stealth" or information gathering (impersonating is an extremely useful ability; one of my players gets a [b']lot[/b] more out of Shapeshift than the point value initially suggests).

 

In a more general sense, many archetypes get a lot more non-combat effectiveness from their powers than bricks do, and few of the things that bricks can do are unique to bricks.

 

Again, for the costs of those metamorph abilities (which serve limited combat rolls), the skills you describe could be acquired at stellar levels.

 

I still maintain' date=' though, that it's more to do with how the abilities have been described in Ultimate Brick than their actual effects that bothers me - I'm a stickler like that, I suppose. [/quote']

 

I think requiring the Brick to shell out some points to reliably use the environment in unusual ways is far from illogical. If a Brick wants to use the surrounding terrain to add:

 

- range to his STR (+1/2 advantage)

- AoE to his STR (+1/2 to +1 advantage)

- an Entangle (rip up the terrain and wrap the target up in it)

- Reach (large weapon swung)

- OCV levels (large object thrown/swung)

 

and numerous other benefits, on a regular basis, with reliability, that should carry a point cost.

 

SpiderMan doesn't get to buy Swinging with his webshooters, then get a variety of Entangles, Gliding (web parachute), Armor (web shield), Flash (webs in the eyes), etc. for free. He purchases each of his abilities separately. If we wants to use some off the wall abilities on occasion, he buys the Power Skill. So can the Brick. If he wants to add one of these abilities to his normal repertoire, he buys the power. So can the Brick.

 

For that matter, if you want the Brick to be able to ad lib regular, reliable add-ons to his abilities, that's also fine - but allow it to the non-Bricks as well. Let the Flame EB'er Transform objects by spot welding. Let the Cold Projector shatter objects well beyond his DC's by freezing them to become brittle. In other words, it's far less important how much extra benefit we let the Brick get from his STR than that other archetypes and special effects get benefits at the same level from their abilities.

 

But, in the default hero rules, I would suggest that SFX provide for minor benefits only - if that's the rule for everyone else, it should also be the rule for Bricks.

[GAZZA]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

I think requiring the Brick to shell out some points to reliably use the environment in unusual ways is far from illogical. If a Brick wants to use the surrounding terrain to add:

 

- range to his STR (+1/2 advantage)

- AoE to his STR (+1/2 to +1 advantage)

- an Entangle (rip up the terrain and wrap the target up in it)

- Reach (large weapon swung)

- OCV levels (large object thrown/swung)

 

and numerous other benefits, on a regular basis, with reliability, that should carry a point cost.

I guess we just disagree. My position is that STR isn't "Energy Blast, no Range"; it's not even "Hand to Hand Attack" - it can be used for more than just punching and squeezing things. There's a lift weight listed for STR, and I don't see why it's unreasonable for bricks to be able to lift things. There's rules for throwing stuff based on STR, and I don't see why it's unreasonable for bricks to be able to throw things. If that makes STR too cheap for what it buys, then it's too cheap. Balancing it by stripping away the essence of what STR does and requiring you to buy it back doesn't strike me as superior to simply increasing the cost, if that's what's needed. But YMMV.

 

SpiderMan doesn't get to buy Swinging with his webshooters, then get a variety of Entangles, Gliding (web parachute), Armor (web shield), Flash (webs in the eyes), etc. for free. He purchases each of his abilities separately.

But he doesn't buy them with "appropriate objects of opportunity", either. If I staged a fight on an aeroplane in flight, and one of the heroes grabbed a parachute and jumped out the window, I wouldn't turn around and tell him that he couldn't do that, because he didn't buy "Gliding, OIF: objects of opportunity". I don't think anybody would. And from my perspective that's a close analogy to some of these "brick trick" powers.

 

If we wants to use some off the wall abilities on occasion, he buys the Power Skill. So can the Brick. If he wants to add one of these abilities to his normal repertoire, he buys the power. So can the Brick.

I just don't agree that the brick is doing anything that he hasn't already paid points for. Where you see "He's getting a free AoE attack" I see "He's used his STR to pick up and throw a car".

 

Certainly if you pay points for such abilities (thereby turning them into a power) you get more capabilities (it's been pointed out that picking up and throwing a car is 2 phases; buying it as a power at the very least should carve that time down), but the basic capabilities are (IMHO) still there.

 

Taken to the logical extreme, characters cannot exploit their environment at all without having paid points. Since nobody has enough points to buy a power for every conceivable circumstance, you either rely on everyone having a Variable Power Pool that they tune as needed, or else everyone uses a Power skill (which have severe AP limitations). You can't drown someone by sticking their head underwater if you didn't buy an NND Does Body OIF "water of opportunity".

 

Now granted that's an extreme, but that's the slope that it leads to.

 

But, in the default hero rules, I would suggest that SFX provide for minor benefits only - if that's the rule for everyone else, it should also be the rule for Bricks.

I don't really agree that STR is a special effect - it's a mechanical effect, that can be justified by many special effects. STR allows you to punch things, squeeze things, lift things, and throw things. To my mind that includes:

• Picking things up and whacking people with them. There are rules for doing this. I find it strange that they don't make any reference to needing to have bought an appropriate EB with the OIF limitation.
  
• Picking things up and throwing them at people. Again, there are rules for doing this.

It doesn't allow you to do these sorts of things:

• Squeezing the breath out of a target such that only their lack or need to breathe counts. No rules for that (well, Choke Hold, I suppose, kind of). But it's a power that seems justifiable to strong characters, and some will have it.
  
• Smacking the ground and sending a shockwave through it that knocks people over. There's no rules for that. But it sounds like something a strong character might be able to do, and some will have such a power.
  
• Leaping for miles. There's rules for allowing you to leap, but not that far. Still, it's sounds fair for strong characters, and some may be able to do this.

Retraction: Hoist by my own petard, I am forced to conclude that "Leaping for miles" is a classic example of "anyone can do it; I paid points to do it better", so I will concede that paying points for the ability to more efficiently throw stuff and whack people with stuff has "prior art" - the key phrase being more efficiently, though, since I still maintain "normal" bricks can still do it, just not necessarily as well.

[Zed-F]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Thanks, I feel vindicated now that one person followed this joke... personally I think it's hysterical.

Of course, being in the Army I've seen a lot of guys do things just this boneheaded when drunk, so maybe it made more sense to me than I should have reasonably expected to in general circulation.

I originally thought that might have been it, although I didn't consider that to be funny. More sick, actually. But then I saw the following at the end of your post:

Now that's a brick trick!

And I thought, there had to be more to it than that. The drunk is by no means obviously a brick, nor is that any kind of a brick trick.

 

All in all, it came across as a rather twisted non-sequitur.

[tesuji]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

One issue which might play a role is the difference between strength tricks and other power tricks.

 

If my firepower guy wants to have his 12d6 firebolt AND an 8d6 explosion "tirck" he buys a multipower and gets the trick for a fraction of its regular cost with lims reducing the cost.

 

If my 60 strength brick wans to have his 12d6 punch and an 8d6 explosion shockwave or air slap thingy, he pays full price with lims reducing the cost.

 

Simple example....

 

A brick and a fir blater are built on 350. One has strength 60 and the other has a 12d6 firebolt.

 

presumably they are balanced characters at this stage, unless one proposes that they cannot be.

 

Now they both decide to purchase the following ability:

 

7d6 Eb explosion self-immune no range

 

for the fire guy this is a nova type explosion

for the brick this is a thunderclap smacking hands sort of thing.

 

the fire guy puts this in a multipower and, if we start with a basic EB cost of 60, he pays for a multipower now for the two slots getting the 12d6 Eb and the 7d6 no range explosion for 71 cp (61 pool 6 blast 4 nova) or net result he spent 11 cp to add the new ability.

 

the brick adds his for 41 cp (61 cp power with -1/2 for no range.)

 

he cannot "multipower" that trick with his investment in strength, his basic punch.

 

But herein lies the rub... if the two characters each with the 12d6 attack were balanced to start with, then why is it suddenly worth 30 cp more for the brick to get the explosion option than for the blaster?

 

Now one can argue that the original two characters WERE NOT BALANCED, and that the penalty is finally catching up to the brick, but that makes no sense. you dont want "am i balanced" to be reliant on the player electing to at some point later take an overpriced effect to even things out.

 

One could point out that indeed the EB if bought "normally" might well be in an EC and thus cost only 30 cp, so the balance comes out closes but only UNTIL the fire player rewrites to a MP, if allowed.

 

So the question might well by: Why aren't "brick tricks" priced at 1/10 cost like alternative to Ebs would be for a fire blaster player?

 

Does a brick gain three times the benefit from a wrap-em-up entangle than the enforcer does from his force bands?

[Zed-F]

Re: OIF: Items of Opportunity

 

Retraction: Hoist by my own petard' date=' I am forced to conclude that "Leaping for miles" is a classic example of "anyone can do it; I paid points to do it [b']better[/b]", so I will concede that paying points for the ability to more efficiently throw stuff and whack people with stuff has "prior art" - the key phrase being more efficiently, though, since I still maintain "normal" bricks can still do it, just not necessarily as well.

Now you've got it.

 

And if you put it in a Brick Tricks framework of some sort (usually a MP) then any individual trick won't cost much. You can also throw some reasonable limits on it such as RSR and OIF: Object of Opportunity (if all your brick tricks happen to require objects.)