Lasso's in Combat

[CraterMaker]

Hey there.. I was working on a sort of AmerInd/western Centaur society and was intrigued by the idea of having them use the lasso as an everyday herding tool, and also as a weapon used in raids and wars. I kknow it was in Western Hero - Which I can't find (probably in a box somewhere).

 

Has anybody used them in their games, or have a rundown on how Hero did lassos?

 

Thanks

 

-CraterMaker

[jtelson]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

From Western Hero by Matt Forbeck

 

A lariat can be used to perform a grab maneuver up to 15 inches away, a lariat never does any damage, except when used as a garotte.

[Outsider]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Stretching with OAF, does no damage, and probably No Fine Manipulation (no lassoing chess pieces, or the like), I'd say.

 

 

PS : One of my favorite moments in fantasy gaming was the look on the PC's faces when they noticed that the 'mere kobolds' they'd been scoffing at were equipped mainly with lassoes, nets (aoe hex!), torches, & many, many flasks of oil

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

3 Lariat: Stretching 5" (25 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), OAF (-1), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (Requires both hands; -1), Only for performing grabs (-1), Cannot Do Damage (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), no Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), No Velocity Damage (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

[phookz]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Wow, 15" is 98.4 feet - that seems like a very long distance to me. Of course, I've never used a lariat, or even been to a rodeo, so maybe I'm off base.

...

I decided to google it and found this page: http://www.answers.com/topic/lasso

 

According to the Columbia Encyclopedia

The loop is thrown, from as far away as 30 ft (9 m), around the horns or the feet of an animal and drawn tight.

 

So, I would think more like 5".

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Thanks for the info phookz! Updated the writeup above.

[phookz]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

No problem - happy to be of help.

 

I was looking at the Stretching power in 5ER, and I noticed that the "Cannot Do Damage" modifier states that you can still do grabs, but not squeeze or throw - so would that not already cover the "Only for performing grabs"?

 

Also, the 1 recoverable charge looks good, but it got me to thinking - is there any way in the hero system to reflect extra time after a power before using it again? Sort of a cooldown, really. Realistically, you should be able to use it again if you miss - it just might take an extra phase to coil the rope again. I don't know how to reflect this in Hero.

 

Good writeup though, I think.

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Only for performing grabs keeps the lariat from being used to turn door knobs, flip switches, etc. The sort of things you could do if you could stretch your hand.

 

I thought exactly the same thing about the delayed recovery. Unfortunately there isn't one that immediately comes to mind. I'm just going to GM fiat it as needed in my western game I'm getting ready to run at Hero Central. Which is the reason I did the writeup in the first place.

 

I think 3 real points is small enough, and I tend to GM from effect more than worrying about all the mechanics. The mechanics are nice as a guideline, and to filter out the bulk of abuse, but I believe a GM needs to take responsibility for what can and can't happen and how. Plus I trust my players to not be overly abusive. For the most part.

[phookz]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Only for performing grabs keeps the lariat from being used to turn door knobs, flip switches, etc. The sort of things you could do if you could stretch your hand.

 

Good point.

 

I think 3 real points is small enough, and I tend to GM from effect more than worrying about all the mechanics. The mechanics are nice as a guideline, and to filter out the bulk of abuse, but I believe a GM needs to take responsibility for what can and can't happen and how. Plus I trust my players to not be overly abusive. For the most part.

 

Another good point. One thing I like about HERO is that it seems to promote that line of thinking. Because the special effects of a power are up to the player and GM to work out, there is an intrinsic need for the GM to use common and dramatic sense when adjudicating how a special effect affects the world. Many other game systems spell out exactly what each power does, leading to rules lawyering on specific effects.

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Amen brother, amen. I just finished rereading the stretching power in 5ER. I think I have it as good as it is going to get. Interestingly enough it also mentions that stretching to full length and then pull back to yourself takes a whole phase so I think that won't be a sticking point at all.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Thank you guys! Awesome!

 

Maby tack on a -1 ocv penalty to it? Str minimum of...? 10?

weight of.. how much does forty feet of hemp rope weigh?

 

Hmmm.. Currently the writeup gives it 5 def and 1 body.. cinematically I can see it taking at most 2 phases to saw out of the lariat with a dagger.

 

How would you handle a person trying to escape while being dragged?

 

As creatures get larger, their weapons do more damage and have further reach - what effects would a large creatures lariat have? More range, they allready most likely have a higher strength.. ?

 

Cool and thanks!

 

-CraterMaker

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Range Penalties should be used for the attack. That covers the OCV penalty. I would make the PC take WF: Lariat if they want to use one.

 

Western Hero says STR Min of 8, but in 5ER you can't have a STR Min on a non-damaging power.

 

The lariat weighs 5 pounds, and appears to not be "just a rope". There is a fair amount of craftsmanship that goes into them and they are often waxed to allow them to slip closed quickly.

 

A grab with a lariat is going to usually pin the person's arms to their torso so it is unlikely that a weapon will be able to be used unless it was already in hand, or is easy to draw. I would probably say one strapped to the thigh is going to be more useful than one on the waist. The grabbed character will need to win a STR contest to get the knife under the rope to be able to cut it. I would also use the standard grabbing rules during the initial phase that they are grabbed and after that it is going to be harder as the rope is pulled tight. However... There is a very simple and easy way to beat a lariat, but I'm not going to post it here in the event that one of my players reads this. (They need something to get experience for figuring out. )

 

A larger creature would just be able to handle a longer lariat and, as you said, would probably be stronger.

 

A few more facts about lariats:

 

Background of the Invention

Lariats originally evolved as an early cowboy's most important tool. Cowboys used lariats to catch cattle, to tie horses in place, to pull wagons across rivers and swamps, to kill snakes, etc. A famous quotation from Ramon F. Adams book Western Words states the cowboy ". . . does everything with his rope except eat with it." The word lariat evolved from the Spanish la reata, meaning the rope.

 

Early cowboys used ropes made of horsehair, grass or henequen. Most lariat ropes today are made of nylon. Typically, cowboy lariats range from 30 to 70 feet in length.

 

How to rope a moving target

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/spin_rope/moving_targets.htm

[phookz]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Thank you guys! Awesome!

 

Maby tack on a -1 ocv penalty to it? Str minimum of...? 10?

weight of.. how much does forty feet of hemp rope weigh?

 

Hmmm.. Currently the writeup gives it 5 def and 1 body.. cinematically I can see it taking at most 2 phases to saw out of the lariat with a dagger.

 

How would you handle a person trying to escape while being dragged?

 

As creatures get larger, their weapons do more damage and have further reach - what effects would a large creatures lariat have? More range, they allready most likely have a higher strength.. ?

 

Cool and thanks!

 

-CraterMaker

 

The -1 OCV sounds good to me, STR min sounds okay.

 

I found a site selling manilla rope (http://www.us-rope-cable.com/HTML/manila-rope.html) - from their site, the 3" diameter rope weighs 241.67 pounds per 100'. That's a volume of 8482.3 cubic inches, and is pretty thick. I figure 1/2" sounds reasonable, so 50' of 1/2" rope should weigh about 3.4 pounds.

 

5 DEF and 1 BODY seems off to me. The Object Table in 5ER (pg 448) doesn't list rope, but Glass, reinforced is 2/1 (DEF/BODY), and Furniture, Light Wood is (3/3). I'd probably go with 3/2 or 2/2 - rope is pretty tough, and should be tougher than glass. If you want movie style rope, where they can cut it on a whim, I'd go 2/1 or even 1/1.

 

As for escaping from it, I'd use the grab rules (pg 387 5ER).

 

Larger creatures typically have stretching already, you should be able to stack the stretching. If you've built them with Growth there are rules about their reach already, the stretching applies at the end of their reach.

 

 

I recently picked up the PDF version of 5ER, and I need to send a big kudos out to HERO for this - what a boon! It's great to be able to search for text, and the built in bookmarks are fantastic! :thumbup:

[phookz]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Range Penalties should be used for the attack. That covers the OCV penalty. I would make the PC take WF: Lariat if they want to use one.

 

Western Hero says STR Min of 8, but in 5ER you can't have a STR Min on a non-damaging power.

 

The lariat weighs 5 pounds, and appears to not be "just a rope". There is a fair amount of craftsmanship that goes into them and they are often waxed to allow them to slip closed quickly.

 

A grab with a lariat is going to usually pin the person's arms to their torso so it is unlikely that a weapon will be able to be used unless it was already in hand, or is easy to draw. I would probably say one strapped to the thigh is going to be more useful than one on the waist. The grabbed character will need to win a STR contest to get the knife under the rope to be able to cut it. I would also use the standard grabbing rules during the initial phase that they are grabbed and after that it is going to be harder as the rope is pulled tight. However... There is a very simple and easy way to beat a lariat, but I'm not going to post it here in the event that one of my players reads this. (They need something to get experience for figuring out. )

 

A larger creature would just be able to handle a longer lariat and, as you said, would probably be stronger.

 

A few more facts about lariats:

 

Background of the Invention

Lariats originally evolved as an early cowboy's most important tool. Cowboys used lariats to catch cattle, to tie horses in place, to pull wagons across rivers and swamps, to kill snakes, etc. A famous quotation from Ramon F. Adams book Western Words states the cowboy ". . . does everything with his rope except eat with it." The word lariat evolved from the Spanish la reata, meaning the rope.

 

Early cowboys used ropes made of horsehair, grass or henequen. Most lariat ropes today are made of nylon. Typically, cowboy lariats range from 30 to 70 feet in length.

 

How to rope a moving target

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/spin_rope/moving_targets.htm

 

Yeah, what he said

 

I'd rep you RP, but I need to spread it around

[CraterMaker]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Should a lariat be a multipower to allow it to garrote someone at range?

 

-CraterMaker

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Probably, but I'll probably just use the rules for the Choke Hold maneuver.

 

They'll need to make a successful hit on the neck with a called shot of course. If they want to just choke with the rope in their hands, that would be the same of course.

[Outsider]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Unfortunately, the standard "objects have DEF" rule in HERO doesnt work that well with rope. If you make its DEF low enough that someone with a 1 or 2 DC knife can cut it, then it becomes all too easy to break via Strength exertion alone. A 2 DEF 1 BODY rope becomes breakable by an average exertion using 15 STR. A 5 DEF 1 BODY rope becomes largely immune to being cut by a normal STR person using a knife, as they have to roll maximum damage (even after adding a DC for excess STR) to overcome the 5 DEF.

 

The obvious solution seems to be to assign some objects non-resistant DEF in addition to their normal Resistant DEF. I'd call rope a 5 DEF (2r), 1 BODY object. Relatively easy to cut, but hard to pull apart by brute strength.

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

I will simply allow the wielder of the knife to do cumulative BODY damage each phase. If they get lucky and roll high they found a weak spot in the rope, otherwise they are simply sawing at it as would be expected.

[Outsider]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

What would they be accumulating though? If they don't roll a '6' they do no BODY to accumulate.

 

Or do you mean you allow them to accumulate their BODY damage before applying the DEF? ie :

 

Phase 1 : 2 BODY rolled : apply 2 BODY to the object (2 vs 5, not enough to do BODY)

 

Phase 2 : 3 BODY rolled : apply 5 BODY to the object (3 rolled now plus the 2 rolled previously vs 5, not enough to do BODY)

 

Phase 3 : 3 BODY rolled : apply 8 BODY to the object (3 rolled now plus 5 rolled previously vs 5, so the object takes 3 BODY damage)

 

Its a solution, all right, but I'd limit the maximum accumulation to the maximum the weapon could possibly do (ie max roll on double the base DC) so people cant use a knife to saw through a vault door eventually.

[Alibear]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Give the rope a vulnerabilty to sharp objects.

 

Or more simply, you could just rule that it is a 'real weapon' and that it has half def v sharp cutting things.

[phookz]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Unfortunately, the standard "objects have DEF" rule in HERO doesnt work that well with rope. If you make its DEF low enough that someone with a 1 or 2 DC knife can cut it, then it becomes all too easy to break via Strength exertion alone. A 2 DEF 1 BODY rope becomes breakable by an average exertion using 15 STR. A 5 DEF 1 BODY rope becomes largely immune to being cut by a normal STR person using a knife, as they have to roll maximum damage (even after adding a DC for excess STR) to overcome the 5 DEF.

 

Good point. After thinking about it more, I think the 5/1 DEF/Body is probably pretty close -rope is tough and I doubt you could really cut through it in a single phase without a really sharp knife, so the 5/1 is probably pretty close.

 

I like RPMiller's idea of accumulating the body, it makes the most dramatic sense. there an times you just have to hand-wave hero.

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Or do you mean you allow them to accumulate their BODY damage before applying the DEF? ie :

Its a solution, all right, but I'd limit the maximum accumulation to the maximum the weapon could possibly do (ie max roll on double the base DC) so people cant use a knife to saw through a vault door eventually.

Yes. And as always common sense will rule the day.

 

there an times you just have to hand-wave hero.

EXACTLY!! Sometimes, I think people get way too wrapped up in the mechanics to think outside the box and do what makes sense despite the rules.

[Outsider]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

Yes. And as always common sense will rule the day.

 

I envy the fact that (apparently) you've always been able to find enough players that you can avoid playing with people who do try to exploit mechanics.

 

EXACTLY!! Sometimes, I think people get way too wrapped up in the mechanics to think outside the box and do what makes sense despite the rules.

 

And sometimes I think people get so wrapped up in ignoring mechanics in favor of what they think 'makes sense despite the rules' that their players end up not knowing what their characters might or might not be capable of without sampling the GM's mood that day. Might as well not be playing with actual rules system at all. :rolleyes

[RPMiller]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

I envy the fact that (apparently) you've always been able to find enough players that you can avoid playing with people who do try to exploit mechanics.

Yes. I have been very lucky in that regard. I have to take some of the credit though in that my players usually learned early on that I'm a 'no nonsense' kind of guy. I also, as a player, try my best to not exploit mechanics. Instead I look at the story and how best I can contribute and make it fun for everyone without making the GM have to stop and adjudicate every action.

And sometimes I think people get so wrapped up in ignoring mechanics in favor of what they think 'makes sense despite the rules' that their players end up not knowing what their characters might or might not be capable of without sampling the GM's mood that day. Might as well not be playing with actual rules system at all. :rolleyes

I agree. That is why there has to be a decent balance between the two. That is also why I'm going to great lengths to post up all house rules before the game even starts. But no matter what a GM does the chances are pretty good that a player is going to come up with a situation that the GM didn't count on. That is when common sense, dramatic license, and fairness come into play.

[palaskar]

Re: Lasso's in Combat

 

There's a neat article in this mnth's Kungfu Tai Chi magazine about the Monkey rope. It has five interlocking knots at one end and a loop at the other. The knots were used to trip horses by throwing them at their leges, while the loop was used in HtH combat to entangle the opponent, even killing them by impaling them on their own weapons.