Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

[schir1964]

10d6 Suppress vs Suppress: Area Of Effect (Radius), No Range, Standard Effect

 

What is the result when this power is used?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Captain Xenon]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

why combine AOE(radius) with no range? that seems self-defeating. If i was GM, i would not allow those two on the same power. now, AOE (one hex) could work, giving a suppresion field, for multiple targets in touch contact.

 

i could see this working as a guy who supresses any devices you put on him to suppress his powers, all at once.

[schir1964]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

why combine AOE(radius) with no range? that seems self-defeating. If i was GM, i would not allow those two on the same power. now, AOE (one hex) could work, giving a suppresion field, for multiple targets in touch contact.

 

i could see this working as a guy who supresses any devices you put on him to suppress his powers, all at once.

How much of a suppression field is generated when the power is used?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

why combine AOE(radius) with no range? that seems self-defeating. If i was GM, i would not allow those two on the same power. now, AOE (one hex) could work, giving a suppresion field, for multiple targets in touch contact.

 

i could see this working as a guy who supresses any devices you put on him to suppress his powers, all at once.

 

AoE(radius); No Range is a great combination:

 

Electro can generate a pulse of energy outwards from his body that shocks surrounding foes:

6D6EB; Area Of Effect (radius); No Range.

(hole in the middle or Personal Immunity might be advisable, but Eletro isn't the brightest bulb out there...)

[tgrandjean]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

It Suppresses the Suppression power in a 10 hex radius... Including itself.

Hope they have some power defense.

 

'Love to hear the SFX behind it though.

[schir1964]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

It Suppresses the Suppression power in a 10 hex radius... Including itself.

Hope they have some power defense.

 

'Love to hear the SFX behind it though.

Yes, but how many points are suppressed within the radius? (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[tgrandjean]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

On average 35 pts.

Doing a little quick math in my head (and sans book) 10d6 Suppress AOE: radius (+1) 100pts (Suppress at 5pt per 1d6 iirc), No range (-1/2) 67 real 10 END

 

So... it would loose ~3d6 each time it was used?

[schir1964]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

On average 35 pts.

Doing a little quick math in my head (and sans book) 10d6 Suppress AOE: radius (+1) 100pts (Suppress at 5pt per 1d6 iirc), No range (-1/2) 67 real 10 END

 

So... it would loose ~3d6 each time it was used?

Suppress is a constant power.

 

And I also specified Standard Effect for the Power.

 

Let me see if I can make this simpler.

 

Character activates Suppression Field, another character (that has a Suppression Power) walks into the Suppression Field, how many points will be suppressed?

 

Hint: It's not 30.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

Suppress is a constant power.

 

And I also specified Set Effect for the Power.

 

Let me see if I can make this simpler.

 

Character activates Suppression Field, another character (that has a Suppression Power) walks into the Suppression Field, how many points will be suppressed?

 

Hint: It's not 30.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Well, They're caught in their own Field, so when they activate it they lose about 3D6 of Suppression for the first activation, the other person loses about 35 Active Points from their Suppression. This is lost as long as END is paid for by the Suppression Field Owner. Subsquent Activations will reduce it further should the Owner wish to pay more END.

 

Of course - I'm not sure what "Set Effect" is doing since that's normally a Limitation on Mental Powers where you can alter the "effect" you are achieving (i.e. "Mind Control: Only to fall in love with the first person the target sees" would take Set Effect).

 

So - Until you explain what the Set Effect is, I'm going to ignore it as a non-sequitor Limitation, worth 0 points.

 

Also see: Suppression Fields 5ER p227 for how these can/are normally used.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

why combine AOE(radius) with no range? that seems self-defeating. If i was GM' date=' i would not allow those two on the same power. now, AOE (one hex) could work, giving a suppresion field, for multiple targets in touch contact. [/quote']

 

Why would you rule that an AoE must always be useable at range? And how would you model an AoE dragon breath?

 

Edit: I note you specify radius, so the dragon breath would work with cone. Still don't understand why you'd make that distinction, though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

10d6 Suppress vs Suppress: Area Of Effect (Radius), No Range, Set Effect

 

What is the result when this power is used?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I assume you mean "standard effect", which is 3 points rolled per die. That would be 30 points per attack. As this would count as the roll each time the power is used, Suppress being cumulative by nature, the theoretical total points suppressed is unlimited.

 

Once the character with the power is completely suppressed, however, the Suppress would shut off. Assuming it's been on long enough to Suppress 100 AP (at its gradually reducing point value) the Suppress would shut down. Since the Suppress shuts down, the power would no longer be Suppressed and could be reactivated the next phase.

 

Note that each use costs 10 END, plus 10 END per phase maintained (again declining as points available decline), so the character likely can't maintain this effect for long.

 

The GM's Option Suppression Field area effect radius would simply reduce the power by 30 points, as that is the manner in which such an optional suppression field is defined tomwork on 5er p227.

 

If you perceive some different result, feel free to post it, or just sit back and chuckle at your own cleverness (or the fact that you're basing your interpretation on 5e and it's been clarified in 5er)..

[schir1964]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

You are correct that I meant Standard Effect.

 

However, the answer is that this power can't work since it creates a paradox. There is no way to calculate the Suppression Effect since that value will be constantly changing due to the fact that it instantly affects itself.

 

Thus Theoretically,

 

Activation should reduce all Suppression powers by 30 Points, including the original power.

Therefore, only 70 Active Points of the Suppression Power are in effect, which is only 6 1/2 Dice Suppress.

Therefore, the Suppression Field is only 18 Points, which means 88 Points of the Suppression Power are in effect... ad infinitum...

 

BTW: Hugh, no need to get snarky, I wouldn't have posted this if it was simple, thus the title of the thread.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

Under that interpretation, the final amount Suppressed would be 22 points. This gives 78 active points, which is enough for 7.5d6 area suppress (but not for 8d6), which has a standard effect of 22 points. Or, if 7.5d6 has a standard effect of 23 points, then you have 77 active points left in the power, still enough for 7.5d6 of Suppress. [1]

 

(If my math is right, a 70 point area effect Suppress should give 7d6 of Suppress. Is my math right?)

 

I'm not sure that's the correct interpretation. Even if it is, it's too much work for me to want to do on the fly; I'd call it a 30-point Suppress for the first time it's used, and only lower the effect for subsequent uses, and not worry about the difference.

 

[1]This is an algebra problem that's trickier to set up than it is to solve. 10 active points in the listed power will Suppress 3 active points of the power. So, if A is the original number of active points, and B is the post-suppress number of active points, then A - B (the amount suppressed) will end up equaling 3/10 * B (also the amount suppressed), so that A = 13/10 B, or B = 10/13 A. In this case, A = 100, so B = 1300/10, which is just shy of 77.

[Lucius]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

I assume you mean "standard effect", which is 3 points rolled per die. That would be 30 points per attack. As this would count as the roll each time the power is used, Suppress being cumulative by nature, the theoretical total points suppressed is unlimited.

 

Once the character with the power is completely suppressed, however, the Suppress would shut off. Assuming it's been on long enough to Suppress 100 AP (at its gradually reducing point value) the Suppress would shut down. Since the Suppress shuts down, the power would no longer be Suppressed and could be reactivated the next phase.

 

Note that each use costs 10 END, plus 10 END per phase maintained (again declining as points available decline), so the character likely can't maintain this effect for long.

 

The GM's Option Suppression Field area effect radius would simply reduce the power by 30 points, as that is the manner in which such an optional suppression field is defined tomwork on 5er p227.

 

If you perceive some different result, feel free to post it, or just sit back and chuckle at your own cleverness (or the fact that you're basing your interpretation on 5e and it's been clarified in 5er)..

 

So in Fred Jr. it's stated that a Suppression power can suppress other powers, but can't suppress itself? That would neatly resolve the paradox.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary decides to devour itself

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

You are correct that I meant Standard Effect.

 

However, the answer is that this power can't work since it creates a paradox. There is no way to calculate the Suppression Effect since that value will be constantly changing due to the fact that it instantly affects itself.

 

Thus Theoretically,

 

Activation should reduce all Suppression powers by 30 Points, including the original power.

Therefore, only 70 Active Points of the Suppression Power are in effect, which is only 6 1/2 Dice Suppress.

Therefore, the Suppression Field is only 18 Points, which means 88 Points of the Suppression Power are in effect... ad infinitum...

 

I disagree with your conclusion. The Suppress activates. It suppresses 30 points' worth of power. That 30 points os Suppress Suppresses the Suppress, but only after its initial activation. This costs 10 END.

 

The Suppress will then be reduced to the standard effect available with 70 AP, so 21. He has 79 AP after this works itself through the system (he could Suppress slightly more, since he now has 79 AP, but he needs to activate the power to increase the effect and his phase is over).

 

Next phase, the character can maintain the 21 points suppressed for 7 END. He can then use his Suppess again, for 8 END, Suppressing a further 22 points (1/2 d6 standard effect is 1 per the Rules Discussion board; I would use 2 but that's not the point). The 100 AP is still reduced by 21, and a further 22 makes it 57 AP, or 5 1/2d6 = 16 points. The Suppress adjusts itself to its new maximum, 16 each, for a total of 32, leaving 68 AP.

 

Next phase, the 32 can be maintained for 12 END 96 each for using 57 AP), and he can spend a further 7 END to use his 68 AP for another 6 1/2 dice, or 19 points. That drops the Suppress to 47 AP. That's 4 1/2 dice = 13 at standard effect, or 39 in total, leaving 61 AP.

 

Next phase, the 39 can be maintained for 5 END x 3 uses = 15 END, and the character can spend another 6 END to add 6d6, or 18 points, dropping AP to 43. That's 4d6 left, or 12 standard effect four times = 48 leaves 52 AP.

 

Next phase, 48 can be maintained for 16 END, plus another 5 to use 5d6 and Suppress a further 15. That drops AP to 37, so 3 1/2 d6, so 10 points per use x 5 = 50. 50 AP left.

 

Next phase, it costs 20 END to maintain five 37 AP Suppressions. Adding 5 END for 5d6 more drops that to 35, still 10 each but there are 6 now, so 60 Suppressed and 40 AP left. 40 AP allows for 4d6, or 12 per use, but 5 were already at 10, so that's 62 suppressed - 38 AP left. That allows for 3 1/2d6 = 10 points x 6 uses = 40 AP left.

 

Next phase, and let's ignore END since the character must have huge amounts to maintain all this. He has 6 x 10 = 60 Suppressed, and can use another 40 AP. He's getting smarter, so he pulls the Suppress down to 3 1/2d6, taking another 10 AP oo and leaving 30 AP, so 3d6, so 9 per use. 7 uses means 63 Suppressed, so 37 AP left.

 

Another phase, I suppose. 37 AP allows 3 1/2 d6 but he'll stick with 3d6. Another 9 means 72 Suppressed and 28 remaining. That's 2 1/2d6 = 7 Standard Effect means only 56 Suppressed, so 44 AP for next time.

 

Every time he hits another break point, AP will recover since the per use maximum for each prior Suppress drops off. Ultimately, he should have 95 uses, each at 1/2d6, going, which suppresses 95 points. Adding another use will leave 96 Suppressed, not enough for even 1/2d6, and the power will return to its full 100 AP.

 

Paradox? No. Congfusing? Yes, but who has the END to keep this exercise in futility going for that length of time anyway?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

You are correct that I meant Standard Effect.

 

However, the answer is that this power can't work since it creates a paradox. There is no way to calculate the Suppression Effect since that value will be constantly changing due to the fact that it instantly affects itself.

 

Thus Theoretically,

 

Activation should reduce all Suppression powers by 30 Points, including the original power.

Therefore, only 70 Active Points of the Suppression Power are in effect, which is only 6 1/2 Dice Suppress.

Therefore, the Suppression Field is only 18 Points, which means 88 Points of the Suppression Power are in effect... ad infinitum...

 

BTW: Hugh, no need to get snarky, I wouldn't have posted this if it was simple, thus the title of the thread.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I also disagree with your conclusion.

 

If you use Suppress once (1 Activation) you Suppress 30Active Points of Suppress.

 

As long as you maintain that (pay END) that's what is suppressed. No further totals start coming off the top unless you use another Attack Action to use another Suppress on top of the first Suppress.

 

For simplification sake I would just go "you lose 30AP off the top for the second activation and 30AP from any other Suppression Power inside the field." But if you wanted to the do the math (which Hugh has done) you can go with those totals.

 

Suppression may be constant, but it does not automatically continue to add another Effect Roll every Phase it is active, that requires further actions on the part of the Power Owner.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

I also disagree with your conclusion.

 

If you use Suppress once (1 Activation) you Suppress 30Active Points of Suppress.

 

As long as you maintain that (pay END) that's what is suppressed. No further totals start coming off the top unless you use another Attack Action to use another Suppress on top of the first Suppress.

 

For simplification sake I would just go "you lose 30AP off the top for the second activation and 30AP from any other Suppression Power inside the field." But if you wanted to the do the math (which Hugh has done) you can go with those totals.

 

I'd be inclined to take your approach in actual play - slowing it down to do the math would be excessive.

[Lucius]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

I think I have a new House Rule (if it is not in fact the official rule.)

 

A Drain can Drain Drain, but cannot Drain itself.

 

A Suppress can Suppress Suppress, but cannot Suppress itself.

 

Thus you can use a Suppress to Supress someone else's Suppress power, or even one of your own Suppress powers, or maybe even use one "instance" of Suppress to Suppress another "instance" of the same Suppress power, but a given use of Suppress simply cannot Suppress itself.

 

Err...wait a minute....that doesn't quite solve it does it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary loves it when Lucius gets that look on his face that shows he knows he's in deeper than he thought....

[schir1964]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

Hugh and Ghost-Angel, it seems both of you still aren't understanding what I am saying.

 

You can't evaluate the intial suppress (suppress a) since it "instantly" affects the suppress itself.

 

If someone with a different active suppress (suppress power is within the radius this character when they activate the suppress (suppress a) will have thier suppress (suppress "instantly" reduced, therefore, the same applies to the activating suppress (suppress a). And nothing in the rules suggests otherwise.

 

So I'm not talking about another phase or some type of cumulattive effect. The initial activation can't be evaluated since all suppress powers within the radius are instantly affected, including the activating suppress.

 

Unless you have something specific from 5th Edition Revised that specifically addresses this condition.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

I think I have a new House Rule (if it is not in fact the official rule.)

 

A Drain can Drain Drain, but cannot Drain itself.

 

A Suppress can Suppress Suppress, but cannot Suppress itself.

 

Thus you can use a Suppress to Supress someone else's Suppress power, or even one of your own Suppress powers, or maybe even use one "instance" of Suppress to Suppress another "instance" of the same Suppress power, but a given use of Suppress simply cannot Suppress itself.

 

Err...wait a minute....that doesn't quite solve it does it?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary loves it when Lucius gets that look on his face that shows he knows he's in deeper than he thought....

I think you have an inkling of the paradox that is created. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

Hugh and Ghost-Angel, it seems both of you still aren't understanding what I am saying.

 

You can't evaluate the intial suppress (suppress a) since it "instantly" affects the suppress itself.

 

If someone with a different active suppress (suppress power is within the radius this character when they activate the suppress (suppress a) will have thier suppress (suppress "instantly" reduced, therefore, the same applies to the activating suppress (suppress a). And nothing in the rules suggests otherwise.

 

So I'm not talking about another phase or some type of cumulattive effect. The initial activation can't be evaluated since all suppress powers within the radius are instantly affected, including the activating suppress.

 

Unless you have something specific from 5th Edition Revised that specifically addresses this condition.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Mostly - just common (and dramatic) sense.

 

You can't suppress until you turn on the suppress, which isn't suppressed yet. So it activates, which happens before the suppress roll. So you activate and it suppresses itself and others. And IIRC there are rules for AoE Adjustment Powers, but I really don't care enough to look them up.

 

Just a simple order of how one goes about stuff. Hugh did the math of suppressing itself in the first Phase - I would just use 30 AP (and Hugh agreed that would be simpler).

 

Your trying to paint yourself into a philsophical corner for no reason at all.

I wouldn't even allow this particular construct in a game, which makes it a largely pointless exercise anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

Mostly - just common (and dramatic) sense.

 

As well as the simple logic that, by the "it suppresses instantly" interpretation, it is impossible to adjuducate the power. Given one interpretation makes it impossible to adjudicate the power and the other does not, the latter is the logically correct interpretation.

 

Note that this is not restricted to Suppressing Suppress. What if a Suppress worked instead against Power Defense (either because it specifically suppresses power defense, because it weakens all defenses, because it's in a Force Field that's being Suppressed or because the SFX of the Power Defense arise from SFX affected by the Suppress). Would you roll the effect of the Suppress, then subtract the non-suppressed power defense, determine the Power Defense suppressed, recompute the Suppress effect with this new, lower Power Defense, and so on until the numbers stopped changing?

 

I would not. I would adjudicate the Suppress against the baseline conditions atthe instant the Suppress was activated. I would then adjudicate the results of that Suppress. These results would then be applied. For the (IMO) technically correct approach to this, see my previous post where the Suppress first acts at full srength, then Supresses itself, thus reducing its ongoing effect.

 

You can't suppress until you turn on the suppress' date=' which isn't suppressed yet. So it activates, which happens before the suppress roll. So you activate and it suppresses itself and others. [/quote']

 

Exactly. Despite the fact that this takes place in an imperceptible period of time, it follows a sequence of events. An Energy Blast is Instant, yet it hits, does damage, does Knockback, and the Knockback does damage, all as an "Instant" action. No one (with any sense) would (seriously) argue that the EB damage and the knockback damage occur at precisely the same time, such that they should be able to co-ordinate for purposes of Stunning. An Autofire attack is also instant, yet they do not have simultaneous impact. If the first one knocks down a Force Wall, the rest pass that space unimpeded. The five Autofire shots cannot be Co-Ordinated to combine for purpose of Stunning. Instant is a game mechanical term which simply means "has its effect, then stops".

 

A power with side effects that always occur is similar. The power is activated, it has its effects, the side effects occur, and their effects take place. The Side Effect may prevent the original power being used again (maybe it KO's the user) but it doesn't prevent its initial use that resulted in the Instant trigering of the side effect.

 

Constant means "has its effect (just like an Instant power) and the effect then continues". This is adjudicated by first determining the effect, then applying that effect and then determining the ramifications of that effect, sequentially, just like an Instant power. The only difference is that, because the Suppress is constant, it can impact its own ongoing effects.

 

And IIRC there are rules for AoE Adjustment Powers' date=' but I really don't care enough to look them up.[/quote']

 

The rules for AoE Suppress are GM's Option, and do not impact the Suppression of a Suppress. To my knowledge, the only rules discussion of Suppressing Suppress is the note that this is possible, but confusing.

 

Just a simple order of how one goes about stuff. Hugh did the math of suppressing itself in the first Phase - I would just use 30 AP (and Hugh agreed that would be simpler).

 

Your trying to paint yourself into a philsophical corner for no reason at all.

I wouldn't even allow this particular construct in a game, which makes it a largely pointless exercise anyway.

 

I would neer say "never", but if I did allow the construct in the first place, I would definitely consider the implications when the power suppresses itself (which, by the nature of the power as written, it will have to do). One of the following solutions would be adopted:

 

(a) The character cannot have the power. Let's assume it's conceptually sound so that's not the answer (maybe it's a mutant power to suppress all mutant powers).

 

( The character must somehow purchase the power so it does not suppress itself (eg. buy 30 points of limited Power Defense only to protect the power from itself; buy Personal Immunity; buy Hole in the Center - all, again, possibly limited to only prevent the Suppress from Suppressing itself)

 

© The dynamic of the power Suppressing itself would be determined and agreed to beforehand, and would function in a manner that does not unduly delay the game as these effects are put in motion.

 

To the next to last comment, I would say that the matter is, for whqatever reason, made as complicated as possible rather than looking for a simple and reasonable interpretation. Why? I don't know. It seems to be an intelectual exercise, since I can't imagine a player proposing, and a GM accepting, the power without assessing how it will interact with itself.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

5ER p227 also does do some more to elaborate on the Suppression Field concept - and it pretty much agrees with Hugh and Myself.

[schir1964]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

This was a light hearted thread, meant to point out some of the more esoteric curiosities of the rules. You two seem to a bit too intense for no reason. Lighten up.

 

Well, it seems no matter what I post anymore, it seems to always end up in some kind of contest of who's right instaed of an enjoyable discussion. I can only conclude that the fault lies with myself. And since I come here to relax and enjoy myself in discussion of different mechanics and application of various mechanics, it seems it is time for me leave and stop posting. I'll probably pop in from time to time to do some reading, but it's just not worth the aggravation I'm causing people to continue to post.

 

Anyone who wants to continue to maintain those threads I'm currently maintaining can email me and I'll send them the code I used so they can pick up where I left off.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lucius]

Re: Things That Make You Go "Hmmmm...."

 

This was a light hearted thread, meant to point out some of the more esoteric curiosities of the rules. You two seem to a bit too intense for no reason. Lighten up.

 

Well, it seems no matter what I post anymore, it seems to always end up in some kind of contest of who's right instaed of an enjoyable discussion. I can only conclude that the fault lies with myself. And since I come here to relax and enjoy myself in discussion of different mechanics and application of various mechanics, it seems it is time for me leave and stop posting. I'll probably pop in from time to time to do some reading, but it's just not worth the aggravation I'm causing people to continue to post.

 

Anyone who wants to continue to maintain those threads I'm currently maintaining can email me and I'll send them the code I used so they can pick up where I left off.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I think you're overreacting, I don't think anyone is trying to make you feel unwelcome.

 

I admit sometimes I think you don't make much sense but sometimes I find your perspective valuable.

 

For the record, I don't consider this to be one of the times you weren't making sense, although it's true that there are other ways to interpret the situation that are more workable than yours - which you admit leads to paradox.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks what's wrong with paradox?