Hero system complexity

[Lamrok]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Beyond what Lamrok wrote' date=' the thing is we see constant discussions "is this balanced" and the like. Even in an experienced group, I see people who've played for years and are certainly not dumb struggle to achieve efficiency that other people have. This is directly related to complexity - and it's directly related to what Lamrok cited regarding the niggling aspects of how SFX play out against all these abiltiies and interact with mechanics.[/quote']

 

This complexity creates a two-tiered playing field. Those who revel in complexity, who love reading rules closely and putting together "pleasing combinations" with subtle potentially abusive effects, and those who just want to hash together a character and play. Personally, I'm in the first group. That wouldn't matter much if the rest of our playing group was like this, but, for whatever reason, most people don't like reading through the rulebook every couple of weeks, poking through online discussions of rules minutia, and running mathematical analysis models to guage baseline character efficiency. I don't do this stuff because I want to dominate a game - I do this because that's who I am. I care about "doing things right" to an obsessive degree. It dominates the way I do my job, the way I coach my kids, the way I grill steaks. Hero gives me the tools to massage characters to a ridiculous extreme that most players simply don't have the patience to match.

 

When my character dominates a combat, I feel bad - embarassed in fact. I want a good story, not a walkover. So I start adding extra conditions to character building, progressively tying my hands behind my back to give the other players more glory time (at least four times over the years, I've voluntarily rebuilt characters to be less efficient to make the game more fun for everyone else). But, this is an inexact science - how far do you have to hold back? I've asked to have a look-see at other players' character sheets to see if I could help them out. One player allowed this once, and I immediatly saw at least a dozen errors that needed to be fixed before we could start the tweaking. That was awkward. He's kept his character sheet to himself since then. And no one else has ever accepted my offers. My general take on the situation is that most players who share the table with me do not understand the rules well enough (despite at least ten years of experience) to build characters they feel confident to share.

 

I won't deny that this same pattern apparently exists in D&D also, but I will assert that it is something that makes the hobby less accessible to new blood. Even if people are perfectly attuned to the complexities of D&D after playing for ten or more years, that doesn't make them eager to dive in and learn another complex system from the ground up. And lots of them are going to look at Sidekick and say "Hey I don't want the n00b rules, I'm an experienced gamer and it's either the full thing or nothing." I've always sort of felt that the existence of Sidekick was sort of a condescending measure - a version of Hero for the ones not quite bright enough the grasp the industrial strength version. Most RPG players don't want to admit that that might apply to them, and seeing that there's a lite version of the rules (that still isn't exactly simple) just assures them that the full version of the rules is just as monstrous as it looks.

 

The light version of the rules should be the standard version of the rules. The complex stuff should be spun off into optional supplements (a model that appears to work quite well for Other Games.) That would make it easier to get up and running with the system without making some kind of value judgement on newbies. I'll echo Rjcurrie's comments about stripping out all the dependencies and "extra stuff" that comes with most characteristics and powers (maybe that was in another thread). I think Hero could be stripped down to something very lean without losing any flexibility at all (instead of buying E-Blast, you'd buy damage + range + spreadable + bounceable). Buy lifting, damage and stat boost separately for strength - or, better yet, put together packages that contain these things and include them in the "Champions Book" instead of the Basic Rules book.

 

Just some thoughts. (And not really directed at Zornwil, since he's heard me ramble about all this stuff before)

[starblaze]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

QFT.

 

The only issue here I truly understand is the color pictures. It just costs to much, and risking insolvency isn't worth it for any company. The other bits are just writing.

 

What I'd like to see is a mash-up of Champions, Champions Universe, Millennium City and Sidekick. Label it "CHAMPIONS The *Super* Role-Playing Game -- Everything you need in one book." Black and white would be fine. This could be supported with 2-4 PDF adventures and see where it goes. Maybe one for fantasy too, since that seems to be popular.

 

This post reminds me of the 4th edition Champions cover.

[starblaze]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Don't be so certain. I'm a pretty unique gamer in that I did *not* start with D&D. And I can tell you' date=' running up a 3rd level d20 character on my own was [i']pure pain[/i]. And, apparently, I still got some of the math wrong.

 

Do many D20 games out there really start at level 1? If so, you might as well compare with creating a HERO 50/25 normal, which is pretty easy, too.

 

Most D20 games felt like work to me when I ran them. Hero can require some more prep time than some D20, but it is a work that I actually like doing because it is more fun

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Interesting this is still going on. What originally promped this thread was trying to help my 20 year old daughter figure out the changes in D&D from third to fourth edition and the fact her group found it so mindboggling they gave up and switched to HERO because it just seemed simpler! Her camapign lasted until just a month ago when she moved to another area.

 

I'm a unique gamer in that I did start with D&D. ( there was really nothing else we're talking late 70s) but left it immediately when something better came along ( Traveller was the first) and never looked back.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Look at that Necromancy! Not only a three-year-old thread, but a month dead game. Heh. (Fourth Edition D&D was out in 2007? Wow. Can't believe it's been so long.)

 

I started to lose interest in D&D as soon as I found other systems too. For me it was World of Darkness, then Hero shortly thereafter. Unfortunately my friends were stuck in their box, so I had only occasional chances to play other systems plus the choice of playing D&D or nothing at all.

[Escafarc]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Like many of the other "old-timer" I started with the D&D digest-size white books then to 1E AD&D. We tried every system that came out liked some of them but it was 1E Chanpions that really moved us away from the d20 mind set. I should mention we also payed a lot of Rolemaster too but we didn't like MERP even though they were pretty much the same game.

[brionl]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Interesting this is still going on. What originally promped this thread was trying to help my 20 year old daughter figure out the changes in D&D from third to fourth edition and the fact her group found it so mindboggling they gave up and switched to HERO because it just seemed simpler! Her camapign lasted until just a month ago when she moved to another area.

 

I'm a unique gamer in that I did start with D&D. ( there was really nothing else we're talking late 70s) but left it immediately when something better came along ( Traveller was the first) and never looked back.

 

Not all that unique. My first RPG was D&D Collector's set w/all the other booklets. Well, first first was Melee/Wizard but that was really just a duel game, not an RPG. But I bought the little black book Traveller when I went to DunDraCon in '78, as well as Runequest, so that's what we played until I joined the US Navy in '79. When I went in, my friend/co-GM got the D&D books, and I got the Traveller books (which are sitting on my shelf/heap w/in 10 feet of me right now).

[Fearghus]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I started to lose interest in D&D as soon as I found other systems too. For me it was World of Darkness' date=' then Hero shortly thereafter. Unfortunately my friends were stuck in their box, so I had only occasional chances to play other systems plus the choice of playing D&D or nothing at all.[/quote']

 

I lost interest in D&D shortly after 2nd ed came out. I didn't see 2nd ed as significantly better than 1st ed AD&D. It was then I switched to GURPS, but like you the groups I played with were stuck in the box and I kept getting pulled back into D&D (hell I still play D&D unfortunately). In general I find all class/level based games more complicated than HERO. Lets face it to create a good character in 3rd ed D&D you need half a dozen books that contain the stats on all your skills, feats and magical gear. You need to tally bonuses from all of these sources some stack together others don't. It can get very confusing. Then never mind in game when someone casts a buff spell having to worry about things like "Is that an enhancement bonus or a competence bonus? Does it stack with Bardic Music?"

 

Hero Doesn't have any of that. If you spent character points on it... you can do it... and more importantly EVERYTHING IS IN ONE BOOK!

 

OK I'll get off my soap box now.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I'm going to chime in with the idea allot of it is psychological' date=' not to dismiss that as not a real problem but I fail to see how Hero is innately more complicated than d20, Weapons of the Gods, Gurps, (3rd in particularly), Exalted, or much more complicated than Tri-stat particularly the current edition. I'm not that good at math in my head; I dislike it in fact. I don't memorize operas in foreign languages or have a law degree but I had no trouble with Hero. But some games just don't "click" with some readers and I've found it very hard to overcome that, particularly if that person has heard allot of the hype on how difficult Hero is. Its difficult for someone to learn something they don't want to or are actively opposed to learning.[/quote']

 

Hero does, however, have additional layers of abstraction embedded in it. While this makes it a powerful engine for modeling things, hero is less tangible / concrete / rooted than most other systems. Some people are better at abstraction than other people. While desire is important, there is more than one kind of intelligence, and hero, like calculus opposed to geometry, or physics compared to biology, focuses more on abstract, symbolic thinking than a lot of other games. I'm not talking about it being math heavy, which misses the mark, in my book. I'm talking about it running on a set of core principles, and a habit of mind, that is enigmatic to many people. A physicist thinks quite differently than a biologist. One models the world via abstractions; the other classifies, organizes, and observes. Hero does have its own way of thinking. Some people ken it faster, and better, than others.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

 

I'm a unique gamer in that I did start with D&D. ( there was really nothing else we're talking late 70s) but left it immediately when something better came along ( Traveller was the first) and never looked back.

 

I'm not unique. I started with the boxed set with the blue covers and moved, almost immediately, to AD&D. This was back in Dec 79. I was a whopping 7.5! On the other hand, unlike a lot of gamers, my group ditched AD&D as its mainstay very early on and moved to other TSR games, and other systems.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

In general I find all class/level based games more complicated than HERO. Lets face it to create a good character in 3rd ed D&D you need half a dozen books that contain the stats on all your skills' date=' feats and magical gear. You need to tally bonuses from all of these sources some stack together others don't. It can get very confusing. Then never mind in game when someone casts a buff spell having to worry about things like "Is that an enhancement bonus or a competence bonus? Does it stack with Bardic Music?"[/quote']

Right. Not to mention having to plot out your character's entire lifeline at character creation, because if you miss some of the prerequisites for those feat chains, you might be screwed. Very little room for seeing how the story goes and advancing your character to suit.

[casualplayer]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Hero is Linux; D&D is Vista. Any questions?

 

Less flippant, and let me tell you it is hard, the reason why we have so many RPG systems past and extant is because gamers are not of one mindset. We look the same from a distance, have similar taste in movies and remarkably concordant histories, enough so that we can get together in groups of a thousand and have a good time, but we see the world differently and we want different things.

 

If I made my wife sit down with a rulebook and hammer out a Hero character, her enthusiasm for gaming would die aborning. It's too esoteric for her, too meta. She likes the RPG melodrama and nothing about buying Striking Appearance and PRE Skills predicates any of that for her.

 

The OP of trying to bridge the gap between D&D 3.whatever and D&D 4th is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Hasbro played a dirty trick because the two D&Ds share the same brand name and some labels but are not related other than by publisher. 4th cousins, twice removed maybe. D&D 4th is a tabletop emulator of some of the videogames that were inspired by D&D, and is more the offspring of Final Fantasy and Diablo than pencil & paper play. This is not a criticism, just an observation, before the 4th Battalion gets their dander up.

 

Complexity is relative. Enjoyment is relative. What's universal is our love of games.

[Escafarc]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I thought it was our love of Pie?mmmm Pie

[The_Patriot]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Way back in 1987 my brother bought Champions 3E. I tried my best to wrap my head around some of the concepts presented in the rulebook like reasoning from effect etc... Up until that point all of my experience with role playing was AD&D 1E/2E, Marvel Superheroes, Traveller, and Twilight: 2000. I really didn't have a problem with the math used by Champions, but it was the reasoning from effect that was my stumbling block. It wasn't until 1992 when I got into a Champions 4E game that it was fully explained to me about what Hero System was all about. After that I keep going back to Hero System because it does everything I need it to do and then some.

 

I've found that in teaching new players about Hero System, is to first talk about the underlying mechanics of reasoning from effect. I've tried avoiding talking about it with earlier groups, but their eyes would glaze over with no comprehension. After talking about it first, the players would immediately grasp the system and enjoy it over other systems like d20. YMMV, but this was my experience with Hero System over the years.

[gojira]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Interesting post on Penny Arcade about DnD a short while back:

 

The first thing I noticed about [DnD] Essentials was its character creation process...

 

It’s structured like an old choose your own adventure with questions at the end of each section. When your wagon is attacked by goblins in the beginning the story asks you if your first reaction is to draw a weapon, cast a spell, heal the driver or sneak around behind the attackers. From there you jump to the appropriate section and continue with the adventure. What kind of spell do you cast? do you offer to help or ask for a reward? By the end of the adventure you have completely filled out your character sheet with your class, defences, skills, languages, gear and powers. I honestly found this part to be really smart and a lot of fun.

 

 

I think this is something Hero could do very easily. I don't have the new "Quick MetaHuman Generator" from Champions, but I think the various options for each character could be put in a pick-an-adventure style pamphlet for helping new players get started.

 

You know, "Viper agents are attacking a shipment of dangerous and valuable chemicals! If they get control of these toxins, they could wreak untold havok on the city. Do you:

 

1. Leap into combat and start punching!

2. Blast the leader with your energy ray!

3. Start by casting a defensive spell to prepare for combat.

4. Choose just the right item from your utility belt.

5. Run to a dark alley to change costumes before attacking them from an unexpected direction."

 

Etc. Stuff like that. This could even be done by Hero fans pretty easily I think.

 

Just tossing random ideas out....

[archermoo]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Interesting this is still going on. What originally promped this thread was trying to help my 20 year old daughter figure out the changes in D&D from third to fourth edition and the fact her group found it so mindboggling they gave up and switched to HERO because it just seemed simpler! Her camapign lasted until just a month ago when she moved to another area.

 

I'm a unique gamer in that I did start with D&D. ( there was really nothing else we're talking late 70s) but left it immediately when something better came along ( Traveller was the first) and never looked back.

 

Of note Empire of the Petal Throne was available in the late 70s (first published in 1975). I know this because it is what I started out with. I also played D&D, though I bailed well before 2nd edition was published.

[archermoo]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Like many of the other "old-timer" I started with the D&D digest-size white books then to 1E AD&D. We tried every system that came out liked some of them but it was 1E Chanpions that really moved us away from the d20 mind set. I should mention we also payed a lot of Rolemaster too but we didn't like MERP even though they were pretty much the same game.

 

MERP was more Rolemaster lite. But then again I started playing Rolemaster before it was called that. Heck, before it was really anything but Arms Law grafted onto D&D.

[Ice9]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

I think one thing that might throw people used to other systems off is that HERO character building starts with a definite "design -> model" flow and approaching it from the other direction doesn't really work.

What I mean is that in, say, D&D (especially older versions), I can build a character two ways:

1) Decide what kind of character I want (conceptually and mechanically), pick stats / class / abilities to support that.

2) Roll some stats, see what class those would fit, see what feats/spells/items I'm able to get, pick some that look good. Based on those selections, consider what the personality and history of the character might be.

 

In HERO, you're always going to be using method #1, unless the GM radically changes how character creation works. For people that were already using that method, HERO just makes things easier - now you can just take the abilities that fit the character without searching for which class gives them. But for people used to method #2, the giant list of options with no structure could be a bit paralyzing.

 

Incidentally, I don't want to sound like method #2 is just some mindless method for easily confused people. It's used to good effect in Traveller, and can lead to interesting results that you may never come across otherwise.

You could set up houserules to emulate it in HERO, but I find it easier just to use another game's creation system and then model the resulting character in HERO if I want that effect.

[acide_bob]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Me point on the Hero System:

It is far more intimidating than hard to understand.

 

First time I tried to open the books I thought: "What the **** did I get myself into!?!"

But then, it's like any other system. Start with the beginning ofthe bok and slowly read it. In no time you'll grasp it and you'll be able to handle all the basics.

 

You'll have 3 real challenge in my opinion:

First - Bringing complex concept and trying to make them work on a character sheet. You have to know a lot about to system to makee them work right. But you'll soon overlook this difficulty.

Second - Game balance. Took me a while to handle the game balance. To understand how and why some powers should not be allowed unless under extreme limitations. Combbat balance can be an issue too. But if you had experience with systems like World of Darkness or Shadowrun you should be able to handle right too much problems. If you are making the jump from D&D, good chance you'll get a brain sprain the first couple of games and/or combats.

Third - The rules. there is a lot for a lot of situation. Knowing them all is a pain. I often find myself in situation where i try to remember how velocity work on a falling character and how much damage he's gonna take if he hits the concret or how does it work to catch the said falling character. It can be a real pain sometime and some rules doesn't show up often so it's hard to remember them. But considering the system, keep in mind that most of the time jsut more or less guess something that mroe or less refer to the initial rule and you should be fine.

 

Honestly, like i first said, the system is intimidating by the sheer number of details in rules more than it is hard to use.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Hero is Linux....

 

Yeah, but...

 

"Linux is for elitist, nerdy shmucks. I'm sorry to say it, but its true."

 

--Three Dead Trolls in a Baggy's megahit Every OS Sucks.

[Darbor]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Wow, I don't see Hero as Linux. Hero would be Linux if the manual was nothing but unrelated one page write ups on whatever part of the system someone decided to write about and written by multiple authors with different writing styles.

[Escafarc]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Yeah, but...

 

"Linux is for elitist, nerdy shmucks. I'm sorry to say it, but its true."

 

--Three Dead Trolls in a Baggy's megahit Every OS Sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uilHLIujOj0

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Hero is Linux; D&D is Vista. Any questions?

 

I think that, with a bit of work, Hero could be turned into OS X - a nice, lickable GUI up front, but launch Terminal and you've got full access to UNIX™!

[Escafarc]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

But I don't want to be a UNIX!!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero system complexity

 

Wow' date=' I don't see Hero as Linux. Hero would be Linux if the manual was nothing but unrelated one page write ups on whatever part of the system someone decided to write about and written by multiple authors with different writing styles.[/quote']

What do you think the Power write-ups are? Besides, Linux has plenty of how-to tutorials, support forums, and other documentation now.

 

The real point being that, like an open-source operating system such as Linux, the Hero System exposes its internals: the building blocks, meta-rules, and even design philosophy. It hands you a toolkit with which you can easily, "build it yourself," if something someone else has built isn't sufficient for your needs, and even easily replace parts of the toolkit itself that you find insufficient or inappropriate.

 

(AND IMO the company tries to put all the power in our hands, proving us more and useful content with supplements rather than creating an arms race that makes it NECESSARY to keep coming back for more in order to stay up with the latest and stay competitive. IOW D&D tries to essentially be a CCG roleplaying game, and Hero hasn't yet degenerated to that level of player exploitation. So IMO Hero has much more of the community-based real-value philosophy rather than the corporate squeeze-all-your-money-out-of-you-and-leave-you-craving-more one.)