Help!!! Gate creation question.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Well' date=' there's the thing: a Focus, even a Universal one, even if it's Independent, is normally an investment in Character Points by the person who creates it. What the OP seems to be going for (I hope he'll correct me if I'm mistaken) is a spellcaster who pays the Character Points for this spell one time, and then can cast it to create Gates wherever he chooses, as many times as he wants to (within the SFX of the spell). I suggested a Resetting Trigger because that's one way to define such an ability mechanically; and Usable On Others would allow control of the enspelled area to pass to someone else, letting the caster "sell" these spells to people who wanted a gate in their vicinity.[/quote']

 

If I'm reading the description right, anyone trained in the creation of and with the magical knowledge can create a gate. The world is full of them.

 

It looks like a form of equipment. The Blacksmith doesn't get charged Character Points for making a Sword, he just needs Weaponsmith, time, tools and materials.

 

A special sword, a Player wants to keep around that isn't (easily) replaceable we charge points for. (unless you're in a Supers game, and even then most people toss that out the window unless we're back to the Special Sword.)

 

If the gates are everywhere, perhaps they need to know the Gate Spell personally, PS: Stonemason (or whatever the gate is physically made out of), time, tools, and materials. After that, it's all Special Effect that the gate gets built, goes on and gets used by anyone who knows where the On Switch is.

 

If it's a Special Gate, then we're moving back to paying points. But if it's your average standard "Look, let's take the gate to the zoo today I don't feel like driving the ox-cart across town" then why involve all that mumbo jumbo of points and UBO, and Focii and such?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

If I'm reading the description right' date=' anyone trained in the creation of and with the magical knowledge can create a gate. The world is full of them.[/quote']

 

And in fact some systems for creating magic items work in a similar fashion.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

You have certainly understood my intent completely.

So if I understood this correctly UBO is only necessary if I want others to have control wether the gate transports them or not? And if I just want the gate to be part of the scenery so that it works automatically no UBO is necessary?

 

Well, if you want the teleport to work on anyone who steps into the area, when the gate spellcaster isn't around and isn't carried with them, you'll need the variation of the Usable On Others Advantage, "Usable As Attack." That way the teleport occurs without their volition or need to consciously control it.

 

I should point out that the alternatives presented by my board colleagues above are equally valid approaches, and much less expensive and involved than designing a spell. It really depends on how you're comfortable handling it. If you're the GM that's your decision to make.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Sorry if I sounded snippy' date=' I was merely exasperated by my own inability to make my point in an understandable fashion. No offense was intended nor taken. (English is not my native language)[/quote']I was actually quite concerned about any perception of me "talking down" to you. I sensed no snippiness, just a feeling of frustration. All is well on my end.

 

As to the question at hand, the more I see ghost-angels comments, the more I have to agree that breaking it down to a Special Effect is the best option. Since these things are so common, I would not imagine paying for them any more than a regular carpenter would pay points for making a regular door.

 

On a purely humorous level, how do these doors lock? I can just imagine some nova-rich merchant getting one installed and the next day he is filing a report with the City Watch.

 

City Watchman: "Well at least you didn't have one of those mage portals installed. The burglars just love 'em. Instant access to your belongings. You'd have to be a real moron to get one of those things put in."

 

Merchant: "Uh yeah. A real dummy. Thanks watchman. Gertrude! About that little 'time saver" you wanted..."

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

If I'm reading the description right, anyone trained in the creation of and with the magical knowledge can create a gate. The world is full of them.

 

It looks like a form of equipment. The Blacksmith doesn't get charged Character Points for making a Sword, he just needs Weaponsmith, time, tools and materials.

 

A special sword, a Player wants to keep around that isn't (easily) replaceable we charge points for. (unless you're in a Supers game, and even then most people toss that out the window unless we're back to the Special Sword.)

 

If the gates are everywhere, perhaps they need to know the Gate Spell personally, PS: Stonemason (or whatever the gate is physically made out of), time, tools, and materials. After that, it's all Special Effect that the gate gets built, goes on and gets used by anyone who knows where the On Switch is.

 

If it's a Special Gate, then we're moving back to paying points. But if it's your average standard "Look, let's take the gate to the zoo today I don't feel like driving the ox-cart across town" then why involve all that mumbo jumbo of points and UBO, and Focii and such?

The use for this would be a situation where only a magician can use the spell and only a small percentage of the population are capable of learning magic.

 

So there would be a Wizards Guild handling the creation and upkeep of these gates as well as charging fees for these servises from the authorities, with a PC being a member of the Guild.(and potentially creating gates like these for his own purposes)

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

I was actually quite concerned about any perception of me "talking down" to you. I sensed no snippiness, just a feeling of frustration. All is well on my end.

 

As to the question at hand, the more I see ghost-angels comments, the more I have to agree that breaking it down to a Special Effect is the best option. Since these things are so common, I would not imagine paying for them any more than a regular carpenter would pay points for making a regular door.

 

On a purely humorous level, how do these doors lock? I can just imagine some nova-rich merchant getting one installed and the next day he is filing a report with the City Watch.

 

City Watchman: "Well at least you didn't have one of those mage portals installed. The burglars just love 'em. Instant access to your belongings. You'd have to be a real moron to get one of those things put in."

 

Merchant: "Uh yeah. A real dummy. Thanks watchman. Gertrude! About that little 'time saver" you wanted..."

Yes well if you are stupid enough to connect your cashvault to the town marketplace well you get what you deserve.

What I envisioned was having all the town squares off a given kingdom connected to each other so that if there is a siege or famine or monstrous infestation in a part of the kingdom people and goods and troops can travel unopposed. The gate would be open all the time but incase of emergency can be destroyed/disspelled to prevent its seizure.

Lord Liaden wrote:

I should point out that the alternatives presented by my board colleagues above are equally valid approaches, and much less expensive and involved than designing a spell. It really depends on how you're comfortable handling it. If you're the GM that's your decision to make.

The most likely method of purchasing this spell would propably be in a multipower or a vpp or through a method similar to the one used in the Turakian age so the point cost is not a major issue. However if this were for a high tech wormhole system I would most likely use the skill approach. I just feel more comfortable handling it this way for magical/nontecnological system.

[Greywind]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Again, with that revelation, it is only a plot device.

[Loxly]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Again' date=' with that revelation, it is [i']only[/i] a plot device.

 

Yrah. If anyone can use them after it is made with no assistance from the Mage that made it ... Plot Device.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

The use for this would be a situation where only a magician can use the spell and only a small percentage of the population are capable of learning magic.

 

So there would be a Wizards Guild handling the creation and upkeep of these gates as well as charging fees for these servises from the authorities, with a PC being a member of the Guild.(and potentially creating gates like these for his own purposes)

 

Well, how would you treat a PC being an Armorsmith? If anyone with the Armorsmithing Skill, Tools, Time and Materials can make armor this isn't so different.

 

The trick is if the PC is making special Gates then he's moved back into the realm of paying points.

 

I still don't think UBO is needed in any case.

the Gate Limitation, with a Mass Adder on Teleportation, specifically states anyone going into the Teleportation Area (the Hex it's in) moves through it. Charging fees and all that means no one goes near it that the mages don't want near it. The "Gate" turning on/off is merely SFX at that point really.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Making it a plot device means that only the GM (NPCs, but let's face it, the GM) will be making them. Which is cool and all, but Kari seems to have wanted PCs to have the ability. If it's something that some characters can do and others can't, then it's an ability that needs to be paid for, and how much do you pay for it?

[Greywind]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Not necessarily.

 

It is something from the definition given that once created is self-sustaining, usable by anyone at need. GM dictates the needs by way of the plot. If it is in the best interest of the plot that it doesn't work, gets broken or other, then that is what happens. This is outside of the ability of the PCs to affect.

 

Otherwise, if it is a personal ability, then it becomes a teleport with bells and whistles attached, and then the points need to be paid.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

I still don't think UBO is needed in any case.

the Gate Limitation, with a Mass Adder on Teleportation, specifically states anyone going into the Teleportation Area (the Hex it's in) moves through it. Charging fees and all that means no one goes near it that the mages don't want near it. The "Gate" turning on/off is merely SFX at that point really.

 

That is a good observation. If what you want is to have a constantly open transport gate, buying it to 0 END, Persistent, Continuous, and with the Gate Limitation would give you something that will keep running regardless of what the gate creator does and where he goes subsequently.

 

OTOH such gates will always be open, so will be visible when not in use, and can be attacked through by people on either side. If that's what you want then it's all good, but if you want the gate to only open when someone uses it then the Trigger method I suggested would probably be more appropriate, without needing to buy Continuous or applying the Gate Lim.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Well, how would you treat a PC being an Armorsmith? If anyone with the Armorsmithing Skill, Tools, Time and Materials can make armor this isn't so different.

 

The trick is if the PC is making special Gates then he's moved back into the realm of paying points.

Exactly! For creating ordinary items in the ordinary way (such as building a doorway out of lumber, or a sword out of metal), all you need is the ordinary skill: PS: Carpenter or Weaponsmith.

 

If you want to be able to instantly create a sword out of thin air, that's a Power. As is the ability to create something extraordinary, like a magic sword. How would you buy that? Whatever your answer, I'd say do the same thing with the gates.

 

Some people like to use Summon for this kind of thing (going back to the original post! - I daresay you had it right, or nearly so, the first time). I prefer to use Summon only for things that have full character write-ups, not just inanimate objects with one (or a few) powers in them.

 

Instead I ask myself, "Self, how would I create a magical item?" I answer that I would use Transform. In this case, I'd call it Transform Normal Gateway into Teleporting Gateway. And I'd call it a Major Transform. The amount of BODY needed is the Active (or perhaps Real) points that the Teleport Power has.

 

The good news is, Transform is Cumulative by default, so you only need one die - 15 active points - unless you need to make gates in a hurry. You can then reduce this cost with whatever limitations you like: Focus, Arrangement, Extra Time, Concentration, etc.

 

I still don't think UBO is needed in any case.

Right again. Remember:

 

UBO means you choose who gets to teleport and they choose whether to use it (and where).

UAA means you choose who teleports and where, and they go whether they want to or not.

Universal Focus means anyone can use it how they like without your permission.

 

If you want, you could create a more sophisticated gate by adding on UBO so that only those you designate can make use of it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Instead I ask myself, "Self, how would I create a magical item?" I answer that I would use Transform. In this case, I'd call it Transform Normal Gateway into Teleporting Gateway. And I'd call it a Major Transform. The amount of BODY needed is the Active (or perhaps Real) points that the Teleport Power has.

 

The good news is, Transform is Cumulative by default, so you only need one die - 15 active points - unless you need to make gates in a hurry. You can then reduce this cost with whatever limitations you like: Focus, Arrangement, Extra Time, Concentration, etc.

 

Transform... ingenious really. (sadly, I can't rep you again yet)

 

Gate Creation Spell: Major Transform (thing into Magical Gate)

 

Now only the GM has to worry about any possibly Write-up, in fact, they just need to find the AP so Inches of Teleport + Advantages = Target number for Transform.

 

The PCs, just need the creation spell.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Transform... ingenious really. (sadly' date=' I can't rep you again yet)[/quote']

Thank you.

 

And one thing I might also mention: The creation spell's Focus would probably be Immobile and Expendible - yes, the physical gateway doesn't go away, but it can't be used for anything else.

 

You have to build the gateway, presumably out of stone or some other durable material - that's the Immobile part, and possibly the Arrangement part.

 

In order to make the thing receptive to the spell, it might need to be inlaid with gold and gems and stuff like that - Expensive.

It might have to be carefully carved with ritual magic runes just so, perhaps accompanied by extensive ritual - Time and Labor Intensive.

The whole thing might need to be sprinkled with dragon blood or something like that - Dangerous to acquire.

 

Even though the materials don't go away when the spell is cast, it should still be considered Expendible because you can't pry off the gems or spend the gold on something else afterward (at least not without destroying the magic).

 

Oh, and if you need a way for the Transform to be reversed, here's a few obvious ideas:

A sufficiently powerful Dispel.

Physically destroying the gate.

Sealing the opening with bricks and mortar (perhaps followed by an appropriate spell).

Someone going through with an Unteleportable MacGuffin.

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Exactly! For creating ordinary items in the ordinary way (such as building a doorway out of lumber, or a sword out of metal), all you need is the ordinary skill: PS: Carpenter or Weaponsmith.

 

If you want to be able to instantly create a sword out of thin air, that's a Power. As is the ability to create something extraordinary, like a magic sword. How would you buy that? Whatever your answer, I'd say do the same thing with the gates.

 

Some people like to use Summon for this kind of thing (going back to the original post! - I daresay you had it right, or nearly so, the first time). I prefer to use Summon only for things that have full character write-ups, not just inanimate objects with one (or a few) powers in them.

 

Instead I ask myself, "Self, how would I create a magical item?" I answer that I would use Transform. In this case, I'd call it Transform Normal Gateway into Teleporting Gateway. And I'd call it a Major Transform. The amount of BODY needed is the Active (or perhaps Real) points that the Teleport Power has.

 

The good news is, Transform is Cumulative by default, so you only need one die - 15 active points - unless you need to make gates in a hurry. You can then reduce this cost with whatever limitations you like: Focus, Arrangement, Extra Time, Concentration, etc.

 

 

Right again. Remember:

 

UBO means you choose who gets to teleport and they choose whether to use it (and where).

UAA means you choose who teleports and where, and they go whether they want to or not.

Universal Focus means anyone can use it how they like without your permission.

 

If you want, you could create a more sophisticated gate by adding on UBO so that only those you designate can make use of it.

Now this is cool. You sir are a genius. Thank You. I will certainly use this method.

[Kari]

Re: Help!!! Gate creation question.

 

Thank you.

 

And one thing I might also mention: The creation spell's Focus would probably be Immobile and Expendible - yes, the physical gateway doesn't go away, but it can't be used for anything else.

 

You have to build the gateway, presumably out of stone or some other durable material - that's the Immobile part, and possibly the Arrangement part.

 

In order to make the thing receptive to the spell, it might need to be inlaid with gold and gems and stuff like that - Expensive.

It might have to be carefully carved with ritual magic runes just so, perhaps accompanied by extensive ritual - Time and Labor Intensive.

The whole thing might need to be sprinkled with dragon blood or something like that - Dangerous to acquire.

 

Even though the materials don't go away when the spell is cast, it should still be considered Expendible because you can't pry off the gems or spend the gold on something else afterward (at least not without destroying the magic).

 

Oh, and if you need a way for the Transform to be reversed, here's a few obvious ideas:

A sufficiently powerful Dispel.

Physically destroying the gate.

Sealing the opening with bricks and mortar (perhaps followed by an appropriate spell).

Someone going through with an Unteleportable MacGuffin.

More coolness!! Maybe sealing the opening would work like the iris in Stargate, so it can block the transit but wont affect the enchantment.