Limited Power Defense

[Wanderer]

Suppose I wish a character to be highly resistant and even effectively immune to Instant "depowering" attacks, such as "neutralization gun" Drains, Transform spells, Transfer vampiric touches, and the like, but keep vulnerable to Constant ones, such as Suppress "power negator collars" or "dampening fields", the SFX being that the character's system quickly recovers from unwanted transformations of the body and damage targeting one's characteristics and powers, but cannot adapt to ongoing suppression of such traits. Likewise, the character should remain vulnerable to long-term mental manipulation, such as Mental Transforms.

 

Following this line of thought, I also suppose that the best way to implement this in Hero terms is to buy Power Defense with the Limitation ("Not vs. Suppresses and Mental Transforms") or ("Only vs. Drains/Transfers and Body Transforms"). Any idea about the fair price for such a Limitation, which wording would you use, and how much PD would you buy to effect such an invulnerability (both at Standard and Cosmic power levels) ??

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

I would advise against making such a distinction between Drain and Suppress in the way that you suggest. On the surface it may appear that they are as distinct as the powers Energy Blast and Killing Attack but they really aren't. Drain and Suppress only differ in the way the owning character pays for the resulting effect. In other words, an equivalent effect can be constructed using either power (which is not possible with EB and RKA).

 

I would instead recommend using a special effect based Limitation which is far easier to gauge in effectiveness and value.

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

I would advise against making such a distinction between Drain and Suppress in the way that you suggest. On the surface it may appear that they are as distinct as the powers Energy Blast and Killing Attack but they really aren't. Drain and Suppress only differ in the way the owning character pays for the resulting effect. In other words' date=' an equivalent effect can be constructed using either power (which is not possible with EB and RKA).[/quote']

 

Yes, but they have a rather strong differentiation in that one is a "fire and forget" Instant Attack, like a blast or spell, whereas the other is an ongoing Constant Attack that needs to be renewed moment-to-moment, such as a power negator that you fit on the character or a field encompassing a locale. I perceive a strong rule differentation (Instant vs. Constant) which typically becomes a SFX difference. If you wish, the Limitation might be reworded "Only Vs. Instant Adjustments and Body Transforms". There is strong precedent in Hero for modifiers that involve power types as such, across SFXs. See the Champions list of typical Vulnerabilities, you will see things like Vulnerable to Drains or to Entangles. I wish to do the opposite thing.

 

I would instead recommend using a special effect based Limitation which is far easier to gauge in effectiveness and value.

 

Ineffective. I wish to build an Invulnerability to all Instant depowering attacks, regardless of SFX, without making it invulnerable to Constant power negators as well.

[braincraft]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Ineffective. I wish to build an Invulnerability to all Instant depowering attacks' date=' regardless of SFX, without making it invulnerable to Constant power negators as well.[/quote']

 

Power Defense X (Only vs Power Negators, -1/2; Not vs Constant Powers, -1/2)

 

Adjust for the prevalence of either effect in your campaign. I don't see what's so hard.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Yes, but they have a rather strong differentiation in that one is a "fire and forget" Instant Attack, like a blast or spell, whereas the other is an ongoing Constant Attack that needs to be renewed moment-to-moment, such as a power negator that you fit on the character or a field encompassing a locale. I perceive a strong rule differentation (Instant vs. Constant) which typically becomes a SFX difference. If you wish, the Limitation might be reworded "Only Vs. Instant Adjustments and Body Transforms". There is strong precedent in Hero for modifiers that involve power types as such, across SFXs. See the Champions list of typical Vulnerabilities, you will see things like Vulnerable to Drains or to Entangles. I wish to do the opposite thing.

 

 

 

Ineffective. I wish to build an Invulnerability to all Instant depowering attacks, regardless of SFX, without making it invulnerable to Constant power negators as well.

 

How do you make the distinction between the following 2 completely legal builds then?

 

Is it a Drain or is it a Suppress?

 

60 1) Dummy Gun 1: Drain INT 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points)

[Notes: Drain is normally 'Fire and Forget'. Continuous means that once a target is 'hit' once no further attack rolls are necessary. Uncontrolled means that no further attack actions are necessary either.] - END=6

 

60 2) Dummy Gun 2: Suppress INT 4d6+1 (standard effect: 13 points), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points)

[Notes: Suppress is considered a constant power by default. This is not an advantage but rather a limitation of the power. Its effect remains only as long as END is paid. Multiple additional applications of the power vs. a single target are allowed IF the additional END can also be paid. ] - END=2

 

Note that being constant or continuous does not change the effect of the normal fade rate rules on both of these builds either.

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Power Defense X (Only vs Power Negators' date=' -1/2; Not vs Constant Powers, -1/2)[/quote']

 

yes, although I'd also want the protection to cover Characteristics, either bought like powers or not, so maybe the Only vs. Power Negators should be dropped.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

It's a highly context sensitive judgement call.

 

Only someone who is familiar with your campaign and the relative frequencies of various types of attacks that might go against power defense will be able to make a decent guess at what the various limitations are worth.

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

How do you make the distinction between the following 2 completely legal builds then?

 

Is it a Drain or is it a Suppress?

 

60 1) Dummy Gun 1: Drain INT 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Ranged (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points)

[Notes: Drain is normally 'Fire and Forget'. Continuous means that once a target is 'hit' once no further attack rolls are necessary. Uncontrolled means that no further attack actions are necessary either.] - END=6

 

60 2) Dummy Gun 2: Suppress INT 4d6+1 (standard effect: 13 points), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points)

[Notes: Suppress is considered a constant power by default. This is not an advantage but rather a limitation of the power. Its effect remains only as long as END is paid. Multiple additional applications of the power vs. a single target are allowed IF the additional END can also be paid. ] - END=2

 

Note that being constant or continuous does not change the effect of the normal fade rate rules on both of these builds either.

 

Nothing said that tinkering with limitations and power builds will always necessarily provide a perfectly satisfying result. Admittedly, the case of the Continous, Uncontrolled Drain is the exception that makes the system balk. OTOH, I'd expct such Drains to be rare. The only way to toally bar them would be to build the limitation to ban any Drains. I would have a SFX explanation for this, though: the character quickly rejects and heals any depowering or char-crippling effects that is not continously applied on him, but are fire-and-forget. Which seemed to suit Suppress just fine.

 

My awowed goal is clear: I wish to allow a character to be immune to being depowered or char-crippled for an indefinite period with a single attack-action application of a ray-gun or spell, barring godlike levels of power. To depower or cripple the character, you ought have to use mind-control, or trap it with an ongoing-effect suppressor field or harness that stops working as soon as the character manages to escape it. Power negator collars, yes. One-zap depowering super-science or magic, no.

[pinecone]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Sounds like a straight foward limit issue...are you going to let Transforms through?...that affects cost as well....I'd start with Power Def (21) Only vs instant effects -1/2 and tweakfrom there.....

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Sounds like a straight foward limit issue...are you going to let Transforms through?...that affects cost as well....I'd start with Power Def (21) Only vs instant effects -1/2 and tweakfrom there.....

 

No, body Transforms, too, are part of what I'm trying to avoid, since they, too, can be used to "zap-cripple". What I'd not want the PowDef to affect are a) Suppresses Mental Transforms.

[braincraft]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

yes' date=' although I'd also want the protection to cover Characteristics, either bought like powers or not, so maybe the Only vs. Power Negators should be dropped.[/quote']

 

I meant 'Power Negators' in reference to SFX; as in, say, only Handwavium Ray Blockers defined as Supress (all powers of a given special effect, +2) instead of tasers defined as DEX Drains or a psychic wave defined as EGO Supress.

 

Mind you, Characteristics are often defined as powers, and it might be useful to make that distinction in campaigns where it is likely to come up.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

I would just make it Power Defense; "Not vs Constant Or Continuous Powers" -1/4 to -1/2 depending and call it a day.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

I would just make it Power Defense; "Not vs Constant Or Continuous Powers" -1/4 to -1/2 depending and call it a day.

He beat me to it. I would call it -1/2. How many points of the stuff you need depends on the campaign norms. 60 Active typical - that's 6d6 Drain, average of 21, say 24 PD for slightly above average rolls, -1/2 = 16 cp. 20d6 Dispel averages 70 points, minus your 24 Power Def = 46. So any power with more than 46 active points is safe from the Dispel.

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Ok, all of you have been most hekpful. Hearfelt thanks. "Not vs. Constant and Continuous Powers", -1/2.

 

I meant 'Power Negators' in reference to SFX; as in, say, only Handwavium Ray Blockers defined as Supress (all powers of a given special effect, +2) instead of tasers defined as DEX Drains or a psychic wave defined as EGO Supress.

 

Mind you, Characteristics are often defined as powers, and it might be useful to make that distinction in campaigns where it is likely to come up.

 

yes, but a) superhuman Characteristics are often bought vanilla, not as Powers (although it's something I tend to frown on, except for the hyper-trained origin; IMO, always better to distinguish where the character stands if deprived of superhuman potential, even if you do not use OIHID, Multiform, OIF, or the like) I might wish for this power to protect even human Chars, too, so that's why I'd like such power to shiled even against said tasers DEX Drains.

[braincraft]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

So... what's the special effect of this power? Why does it protect against tasers and power negators?

[Force]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

I would just make it Power Defense; "Not vs Constant Or Continuous Powers" -1/4 to -1/2 depending and call it a day.

 

QFE

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

So... what's the special effect of this power? Why does it protect against tasers and power negators?

 

Adaptable physiology and/or conscious control over one's body structure and functions. The character is able to overcome and throw off quickly any harmful externally-imposed alteration that is not continually reinforced and sustained by an equivalent power output from the originator. An extension of the classical genre bit that you cannot transform a shapeshifter against their will for long. They use their power to overcome yours. E.g. I would deem such a version of PowDef to be highly appropriate for an Empyrean. Of course, to be appropriate, this kind of character should also have some among good Con, Body, Stun, REC, Resistant Defenses, or stuff like Regeneration, Life Support, Absorption, or Body-changing powers. But characters that have all-around PowDef generally have this kind of build. Unless it's a Force Field.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

It still looks like a special effect distinction is being made.

 

What is the difference between a Drain with a 1 hour delayed fade rate and Suppress with a 1 hour Continuous Charge? The duration is essentially the same.

 

What if the character faces a villain with Gravity control powers. One power is built as a STR Drain with a delayed fade rate (sfx being that the character's mass has been increased). and another AOE power is built with Suppress with exactly the same sfx.

 

How would you explain that your Power Defense stops the Drain but not the Suppress in this case?

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

It still looks like a special effect distinction is being made.

 

What is the difference between a Drain with a 1 hour delayed fade rate and Suppress with a 1 hour Continuous Charge? The duration is essentially the same.

 

What if the character faces a villain with Gravity control powers. One power is built as a STR Drain with a delayed fade rate (sfx being that the character's mass has been increased). and another AOE power is built with Suppress with exactly the same sfx.

 

How would you explain that your Power Defense stops the Drain but not the Suppress in this case?

 

 

The Continous Charge is supposed to represent a "battery" of energy that sticks around and sustains the ongoing effect continously for a while. The Drain only endures for a while because the subject can't recover from the effect fast enough. It's a kind of "wound" (as it is a Transform), on a different level. With this power, you very quickly throw off all powers that are not sustained by an ongoing power input that sustains the effect, but only cause a lingering "damage".

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

The Continous Charge is supposed to represent a "battery" of energy that sticks around and sustains the ongoing effect continously for a while. The Drain only endures for a while because the subject can't recover from the effect fast enough. It's a kind of "wound" (as it is a Transform)' date=' on a different level. With this power, you very quickly throw off all powers that are not sustained by an ongoing power input that sustains the effect, but only cause a lingering "damage".[/quote']

 

The basis of your argument is still sfx based. My gravity power example has a completely different sfx explanation. Both are defined as a 'continuous effect' (that's what decreased fade rate means).

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

The basis of your argument is still sfx based. My gravity power example has a completely different sfx explanation. Both are defined as a 'continuous effect' (that's what decreased fade rate means).

 

Well, in your example there is little difficulty to explain why the Drain is quickly overcome (it compensates for the changed mass), but I see the potential difficulty to explain why it doesn't throw off Suppress, too, I suppose. However, your Suppress looks like a rather extreme and borderline case, although, so maybe dramatic effect may be invoked.

 

I dunno, the scope of the power seemed so clear to me, creating a "stop sign" for (IMO abusive) long-term power-stripping or characteristic-crippling attacks, while leaving the GM an opening for dramatically-appropriate short-term (a combat or scene at most) power-dampenings, or long-term but only by means of devices that can be eventually tampered and overcome.

 

Essentially, I wished to insurance my character against those "character is depowered/shrunk/turned into animal/regressed to childhood and must solve the situation while running around in a pathetic situation" plots which I hate, while saying yes to the "character is defeated, captured, fit with power collar negator and must escape prison or deathtrap" plots. I wished to make "red kryptonite" stories impossible while making "deathtraps" stories possible.

[braincraft]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Essentially' date=' I wished to insurance my character against those "character is depowered/shrunk/turned into animal/regressed to childhood and must solve the situation while running around in a pathetic situation" plots which I hate, while saying yes to the "character is defeated, captured, fit with power collar negator and must escape prison or deathtrap" plots. I wished to make "red kryptonite" stories impossible while making "deathtraps" stories possible.[/quote']

 

Then talk to your GM about the kind of plots you want to be a part of. If he really wants to nerf you, he can still do it; AVLD or NND Adjustments will go right through anything you can buy. You shouldn't feel that you have to build your character to nullify plot points, and it's passive-agressive (on one side or the other) for your game to work like that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Got to agree with braincraft.

 

You shouldn't have to add abilities to your character to avoid plot points or various plot ideas.

[Wanderer]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

Yes, but I wished to churn up a little nice power build to explain why the character is immune to such plot points, a kind of footnote, even if I obviously clarify the real reason in frank amicable GM-player gentlemen's agreement.

 

It was not a tool to be willful passive-aggressive (far from me), it was to explain you folks what the power was meant to look like.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Limited Power Defense

 

The basis of your argument is still sfx based.

I think that's what he wants. There's nothing wrong with an SFX-based limitation, we do it all the time. In this particular case, the SFX distinction is more likely to come with a mechanical build distinction. As long as that's clear between the player and GM, there's no problem.