Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Hugh's argument' date=' assuming that I understand it correctly, is basically that the only people that take it are the people that won't be effected by it anyway as part of concept anyway. By that logic, I assume you feel Psych disads aren't worth anything either? I mean why should someone get points for Vengeful, when that's how they were going to play the character anyway?[/quote']

 

The Vengeful character may well be disadvantaged in play. The character will strive to take revenge, even when the player knows his character is taking a sub-optimal, dangerous or even suicidal action due to this limitation.

 

NCM dictates only how the character will be constructed. It has no impact whatsoever on how that character is played in the game, and causes no in-game drawbacks. It provides a character design constraint only.

 

Once again, I ask whether ANYONE who thinks NCM is a valid disadvantage is prepared to expand the concept and provide disadvantage points for any character who takes a broad swath of abilities that his or her character must pay double to purchase. How about "Mental Powers cost double" Who'll give me even 5 points for that disadvantage? It doubles the cost of abilities my character isn't buying, just like NCM does. Now, maybe that should be "Mental Powers bought without a limitation cost double", since NCM doesn't prevent buying stats with a limitation. How about "pays double for frameworks"? Most characters have a framework. If my Brick won't, why can't he also have a "character design" limitation?

 

Will you give me disad points for "costs double to buy off disadvantages or limitations"? That's certainly limiting my character build options.

 

Turn this around - has ANYONE ever designed a character who took NCM and then bought 20 or more points of "above NCM' stats, such that they paid more in doubled stat costs that the disadvantage saved?

[JmOz]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

It should be noted that, and to me this is significant, that all characters do buy characteristics, while you have a somewhat valid point that they might not have planned to buy them that high, to say it is the same as saying I am not buying mental powers so do I get a disad is a false comparison.

 

However, in my fantasy game I gave dwarves, gnomes, and half folks a Phys disad: inability to use magic spells. Basicaly while it was a learned skill that cost points the fact that in the game a dwarf or gnome could never learn spells was a legit disad to me. the disad did not BTW include holly magic or most magic items (It did include some magic items that were spell like)

 

 

If memmory served it was a 10 point Phys lim.

[薔薇語]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

However, in my fantasy game I gave dwarves, gnomes, and half folks a Phys disad: inability to use magic spells. Basicaly while it was a learned skill that cost points the fact that in the game a dwarf or gnome could never learn spells was a legit disad to me. the disad did not BTW include holly magic or most magic items (It did include some magic items that were spell like)

 

 

If memmory served it was a 10 point Phys lim.

 

I personally tend to agree with Hugh on this. The most major effect of NCM is on you design options and if you arn't intending on being super than it doesn't really affect you. I also don't, in my games, allow NCM unless I make it for everyone. This is basically "you take this no questions asked and don't get points!"

 

But to go back to your example of dwarves(by the way I would allow them to cast, but that is just me). I wouldn't have given them points for the disad, and here is why.

1. At the start of the game when I give the characters the history of the world I would note specials that apply to certain races and let them know ahead of time what they are. If they still choose to be a member of the race great, if not then they don't have to worry.

2. Now I would also try and balance things out so that they don't just get a disad that no one else has to suffer for free.

2.1. Maybe by making every race have a simular disad or

2.2. by appling advantages to the dwarves that don't exist for the others, ie increase NCM for certain stats so as to pay off the differnce. 10pt disad equals for the dwarves a NCM of 23 Con and 22 Body or something simular that way the 10pt disad comes with 10pts worth of kick-backs.

 

But I tend to me more restrictive on how people restrict there characters.

 

And on a side note,

I thought once that I should start up a resturaunt. It would be a rather cramped area with a jungle backdrop painted on all the walls. Keep the heatting on all the time. And if you looked closely enough at the paintings you might see someone in the back ground. Every few hours I would have someone from the kitchen run screaming though the dining area carring a gun. The name of the place would be "Charlie's" and serve vietnamese food. And we could do 2 for 1 specials on veteran's day. No one liked my idea and I don't know why.

 

La Rose

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I don't use NCM as a disad in any of my campaigns, Superheroic or not.

 

I do set limits on what Humans can achieve while remaining Human, and explain to Players that characters that exceed those limits are either no longer entirely human or had better have a very good story reason for having the ability to do X.

 

I'm all for setting limits in a campaign; I don't like the idea of charging Character A 15 points for an ability and Character B 20 points for that exact same ability.

 

And I really dislike Disadvantages that don't provide a meaningful story hook in play. I can hang a scene on Mere Mortal Man's Code of Vengeance, his arch enemy The Smiling Man, or his kidnapped ward; I can't hang a scene on the fact that he spent 20 points for a 25 STR.

 

In part, this comes down to a discussion on what disadvantages are actually for. I see them as requests from the Player to see particular events come up in a game. A Code of Honor means the Player wants to have to make a tough choice based on his character's code; a DNPC means the Player wants to interact with and protect that NPC. On the other hand, ff you look at them as an accounting tool rather than a story telling tool, something that increases costs or strictly limits build options makes more sense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

It should be noted that' date=' and to me this is significant, that all characters do buy characteristics, while you have a somewhat valid point that they might not have planned to buy them that high, to say it is the same as saying I am not buying mental powers so do I get a disad is a false comparison.[/quote']

 

So "I don't plan to buy Mental Powers" doesn't qualify for a disadvantage, but "I don't plan to buy characteristics above the NCM level" does? Yes, everyone buys characteristics. And NCM allows them to buy characteristics, just not beyond a certain point.

 

What if my character had "Attacks cost double above 45 AP" in a game where the maximum AP for attacks is 60? Virtually everyone will have a 12 DC attack, but thus guy won't. He's just as "disadvantaged" as the guy who pays double for stats over 20 in a game where everyone else has DEX 23 and CON 23.

 

However, in my fantasy game I gave dwarves, gnomes, and half folks a Phys disad: inability to use magic spells. Basicaly while it was a learned skill that cost points the fact that in the game a dwarf or gnome could never learn spells was a legit disad to me. the disad did not BTW include holly magic or most magic items (It did include some magic items that were spell like)

 

 

If memmory served it was a 10 point Phys lim.

 

But to go back to your example of dwarves(by the way I would allow them to cast, but that is just me). I wouldn't have given them points for the disad, and here is why.

1. At the start of the game when I give the characters the history of the world I would note specials that apply to certain races and let them know ahead of time what they are. If they still choose to be a member of the race great, if not then they don't have to worry.

2. Now I would also try and balance things out so that they don't just get a disad that no one else has to suffer for free.

2.1. Maybe by making every race have a simular disad or

2.2. by appling advantages to the dwarves that don't exist for the others, ie increase NCM for certain stats so as to pay off the differnce. 10pt disad equals for the dwarves a NCM of 23 Con and 22 Body or something simular that way the 10pt disad comes with 10pts worth of kick-backs.

 

Let's assume all the Dwarf gets is his disadvantage of being unable to use magical spells. Now, if all this does is restrict how he can spend character points, I'd have to say "no disadvantage". The human warrior who will bever learn a magic spell doesn't get points back for it - why should the dwarf? My Noble Steed Horse follower doesn't get disadvantage points for "can't buy magic spells", and my Falcon follower gets no points for "Can't buy Science Skills".

 

But, in a Heroic game, this may not be all about character design. It may actually restrict the chartacter. How common are magic items that others wiithout this disadvantage (but with no points spent on Familiarities, skills, etc. to be able to use the items) may use, but the dwarf cannot? How significant a limitation will it be? if the expectation is that other characters will be weighed down with 50 - 100 CP worth of free magic equipment, but the Dwarf can't use such equipment, this now becomes a limitation that impacts the Dwarf in actual game play. That would merit a disadvantage. Similarly, a FH character who can never use an edged weapon, say...not just "not buy familiarity with", but literally "can never use" would qualify for a disadvantage. He is giving up something that other characters get for free. How many points? That depends on how significant the restriction will be - if he can get the same benefits as other characters by using non-edged weapons, not very limiting at all. But this will depend on the campaign world.

 

I personally tend to agree with Hugh on this. The most major effect of NCM is on you design options and if you arn't intending on being super than it doesn't really affect you. I also don't' date=' in my games, allow NCM unless I make it for everyone. This is basically "you take this no questions asked and don't get points!" [/quote']

 

I also perceive this as a design setting, not a disadvantage. In a 200 + 150 Supers game, would you give a character a disad for "Designed on 150 + 100 points"? How much?

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Once again, I ask whether ANYONE who thinks NCM is a valid disadvantage is prepared to expand the concept and provide disadvantage points for any character who takes a broad swath of abilities that his or her character must pay double to purchase. How about "Mental Powers cost double" Who'll give me even 5 points for that disadvantage?

Yes I would, but we'd have to make it equivalent. As it stands right now, not every character has mental powers, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has characteristics. So in order for that to limit you, It would have to be in a campaign where ALL the characters are taking mental powers (Psi-Cops or some such)

It doubles the cost of abilities my character isn't buying' date=' just like NCM does. Now, maybe that should be "Mental Powers bought without a limitation cost double", since NCM doesn't prevent buying stats with a limitation. How about "pays double for frameworks"? Most characters have a framework. If my Brick won't, why can't he also have a "character design" limitation?[/quote']

Right and if EVERYONE had Mental Powers then it would limit it. As far as Frameworks, they have their own inherent limitations to balance the cost (lack of Multiple power attacks, drained as one power, tight concept, etc.) so not taking one is already off set.

Will you give me disad points for "costs double to buy off disadvantages or limitations"? That's certainly limiting my character build options.

Depending on what your limitations are I might.

Turn this around - has ANYONE ever designed a character who took NCM and then bought 20 or more points of "above NCM' stats' date=' such that they paid more in doubled stat costs that the disadvantage saved?[/quote']

Has anyone ever bought off their Vengeful disad because it was too limiting?

 

NCM is limiting in a lot of campaigns. You were the one that taught how much more cost effective DEX is than Skill Levels and Lightning Reflexes. You fought diligently to prove that someone forced to stick to the NCM while others don't have to is disadvanted, now you're saying they aren't?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Yes I would' date=' but we'd have to make it equivalent. As it stands right now, not every character has mental powers, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has characteristics. So in order for that to limit you, It would have to be in a campaign where ALL the characters are taking mental powers (Psi-Cops or some such)[/quote']

 

Not EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has characteristics in excess of NCM. And not every "this ability costs double" disadvantage need necessarily be worth 20 points. Double cost for characteristics above NCM, or mental powers, or ranged powers, or non-focused powers (remembering that NCM still allows focused characteristics at normal price), or frameworks, or buyoff of disad's/ limitations, or purchasing attacks, defenses or CV's at more than 80% of campaign limits, or movement powers - all limit what the character may spend his points on. If "double for NCM" is worth 20, surely even a restriction which is lower in scope is still limiting, and there should be disadvantage levels at the 15, 10 and 5 point levels.

 

Let's start with the value of "everything beyond baseline costs double" and work our way down.

 

Right and if EVERYONE had Mental Powers then it would limit it. As far as Frameworks' date=' they have their own inherent limitations to balance the cost (lack of Multiple power attacks, drained as one power, tight concept, etc.) so not taking one is already off set.[/quote']

 

Frameworks have advantages and drawbacks. A player who restricts his character to be unable to buy one has limited his options. And the percentage of characters who have a framework isn't far off the percentage of characters who have stats over NCM.

 

Has anyone ever bought off their Vengeful disad because it was too limiting?

 

NCM is limiting in a lot of campaigns. You were the one that taught how much more cost effective DEX is than Skill Levels and Lightning Reflexes. You fought diligently to prove that someone forced to stick to the NCM while others don't have to is disadvanted, now you're saying they aren't?

 

That was an issue of you, as GM, deciding to force a specific disadvantage on all characters of a standard archetype. I am saying the choice of where the player spends points in developing his character is not a disadvantage. And, in game terms, with the sole exception of NCM (and its sister, Age), it is not treated as a disadvantage.

 

Let's look at that game where almost no one has mental powers. So my character takes an 18 STR, 20 DEX, 20 CON, 15 BOD, 20 INT, 20 EGO, 5 PRE (he's a stubby little guy in coke bottle glasses - think Dr. Sivana), 6 COM, 8 PD and ED, 8 REC, 3 SPD, 34 STUN, 40 END. Then he buys a a suite of mental and images powers, including +8 DCV (a minor illusion that he's not where he appears to be), a nice force field, some Healing (mental control of his and others' cellular structure), and +3 SPD, only for mental powers (fast-responding brain). He gets an armored costume (for a bit of rDEF should his force field be down), and maybe a jet pack for movement powers. A 20 EGO is a decent ECV, and he can buy some levels if it's not enough in the specific game.

 

In a 350 point Supers game, I'd say this guy isn't overly disadvantaged by his choices. Yet, with NCM, he really only needs 130 points of disadvantages (NCM doesn't change his character any), where the Brick, the Martial Artist and the Energy Projector all need 150. I don't see this as appropriate.

 

Above, I'm steer clear of the other classic NCM archetypes: a character with a Multiform that lacks NCM, for example, or a character that has NCM and a Powered Armor Suit that boosts him to STR 75, DEX 26, CON 30, PRE 30, SPD 6 and bumps up his STUN, END and REC as well. These both circumvent the intent of the limitation (yeah, you can't have SuperStats outside your armor - isn't that why you got OIHID or OIF point savings?).

 

[ASIDE: If my DCV power circumvents the disad, remove it and invest the points in more defenses.]

 

Unlike most disadvantages, the only character who is going to take NCM (or any other "these things cost double" disadvantages) is the character who isn't really disadvantaged by it.

[JmOz]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

on your mentalist, if you want to work the system, give him the age disad as well, dropping some of his stats, but raising his ego...

 

Not saying I agree on the NCM argument, I don't. I think that it should be upgraded to a stop sign disad.

 

In a game modeled after the Justice League or Legion of Super Heroes it would be a very legitimet disad, as the majority of characters would be over the threashold so limiting yourself to below the threashold is a legitimet disad, but in a game where the characters are near the threashold (On both sides of it), then it becomes less of a disad. Also don't get me started with the ideas from Eye for an Eye about NCM, That was just BAD

 

Also, I am willing to give limits or disads if I feel the character by concept will be disadvantaged. If I was running a game where AI's were taking over the world and you were freedom fighters fighting against them, if you wanted to build a psi (Who would not be able to use your powers vs the robots) I would give you a kick back on it, the power is just not as useful as it normaly would be.

 

 

In regards to The Rose comments about giving the dwarves in a fantasy world extras to balance them. the disad was part of the dwarf racial package deal, it included increased stats, 1/1 DR, and Nightvision. But they still had the disad

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Not EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER has characteristics in excess of NCM. And not every "this ability costs double" disadvantage need necessarily be worth 20 points. Double cost for characteristics above NCM' date=' or mental powers, or ranged powers, or non-focused powers (remembering that NCM still allows focused characteristics at normal price), or frameworks, or buyoff of disad's/ limitations, or purchasing attacks, defenses or CV's at more than 80% of campaign limits, or movement powers - all limit what the character may spend his points on. If "double for NCM" is worth 20, surely even a restriction which is lower in scope is still limiting, and there should be disadvantage levels at the 15, 10 and 5 point levels.[/quote']

There are optional rules for the 15, 10, and 5 point level.

 

I said in my first post that I don't agree with allowing characteristics over the NCM with power armor or other foci.

 

 

Frameworks have advantages and drawbacks. A player who restricts his character to be unable to buy one has limited his options. And the percentage of characters who have a framework isn't far off the percentage of characters who have stats over NCM.

No he hasn't. He can use multiple power attacks, he's powers don't all get drained at the same time. He's traded one set of advantages for another.

That was an issue of you' date=' as GM, deciding to force a specific disadvantage on all characters of a standard archetype. I am saying the [i']choice[/i] of where the player spends points in developing his character is not a disadvantage. And, in game terms, with the sole exception of NCM (and its sister, Age), it is not treated as a disadvantage.

The point is that if a character wants to become better in combat, the cheapest way is to increase DEX. A character that can't or has the cost doubled to do that is disadvantaged.

Let's look at that game where almost no one has mental powers. So my character takes an 18 STR' date=' 20 DEX, 20 CON, 15 BOD, 20 INT, 20 EGO, 5 PRE (he's a stubby little guy in coke bottle glasses - think Dr. Sivana), 6 COM, 8 PD and ED, 8 REC, 3 SPD, 34 STUN, 40 END. Then he buys a a suite of mental and images powers, including +8 DCV (a minor illusion that he's not where he appears to be), a nice force field, some Healing (mental control of his and others' cellular structure), and +3 SPD, only for mental powers (fast-responding brain). He gets an armored costume (for a bit of rDEF should his force field be down), and maybe a jet pack for movement powers. A 20 EGO is a decent ECV, and he can buy some levels if it's not enough in the specific game.[/quote']

Well I also wouldn't allow the +3 SPD so being limited to 4 SPD alone is enough of a Disad in some campaigns. Then having an EGOist limited to a 20 EGO can be limiting.

In a 350 point Supers game' date=' I'd say this guy isn't overly disadvantaged by his choices. Yet, with NCM, he really only needs 130 points of disadvantages (NCM doesn't change his character any), where the Brick, the Martial Artist and the Energy Projector all need 150. I don't see this as appropriate.[/quote']

Maybe not overly at 350, but one the experience starts rolling in, that's when the NCM character is really going to feel that disadvantage.

 

Above, I'm steer clear of the other classic NCM archetypes: a character with a Multiform that lacks NCM, for example, or a character that has NCM and a Powered Armor Suit that boosts him to STR 75, DEX 26, CON 30, PRE 30, SPD 6 and bumps up his STUN, END and REC as well. These both circumvent the intent of the limitation (yeah, you can't have SuperStats outside your armor - isn't that why you got OIHID or OIF point savings?).

 

[ASIDE: If my DCV power circumvents the disad, remove it and invest the points in more defenses.]

As I said before, when you use foci and multiform to circumvent the limitation, I agree it doesn't limit.

Unlike most disadvantages' date=' the only character who is going to take NCM (or any other "these things cost double" disadvantages) is the character who isn't really disadvantaged by it.[/quote']

And I see it the same as Psych lims. The only person that's going to take Vengeful, is a player that would play the character that way anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

There are optional rules for the 15' date=' 10, and 5 point level.[/quote']

 

So why not disadvantages for restricting the character build in other ways?

 

I said in my first post that I don't agree with allowing characteristics over the NCM with power armor or other foci.

 

So you also disagree with NCM as written. I'll delete any other comments on circumventing the disad as we agree this is an issue.

 

No he hasn't. He can use multiple power attacks' date=' he's powers don't all get drained at the same time. He's traded one set of advantages for another.[/quote']

 

A character without stats over NCM presumably spent his remaining points somewhere. That's "another set of advantages" too.

 

The point is that if a character wants to become better in combat' date=' the cheapest way is to increase DEX. A character that can't or has the cost doubled to do that is disadvantaged.[/quote']

 

Or he could bump his defenses (so what if you hit me?) and make his attacks AoE Accurate. Or he coud use mental attacks - a 20 Ego beats the typical opponent, and a few levels with Mental Combat will add some extra numbers should the need arise.

 

Well I also wouldn't allow the +3 SPD so being limited to 4 SPD alone is enough of a Disad in some campaigns. Then having an EGOist limited to a 20 EGO can be limiting.

 

Rapid Fire Cumulative Mind Control/Mental Illusions/Ego Blast gets me there. Granted, he'll be slower than the average Super, but everyone has a drawback somewhere. And most mentalists buy a 23 or 26 Ego, not a lot more than that 20. A couple of Mental Skill Levels cost 10 points (at most) and get the same 2 point boost to OECV that extra 6 ego (12 points) would have accessed.

 

Maybe not overly at 350' date=' but one the experience starts rolling in, that's when the NCM character is really going to feel that disadvantage. [/quote']

 

If it really starts to hurt, 20 xp buys the disadvantage off pretty quick. And there are other places to spend xp besides stats. Maybe some Rapid Attack skills so those rapid attacked mental attacks are less disadvantageous, and reduced END cost to make them more viable.

 

And I see it the same as Psych lims. The only person that's going to take Vengeful' date=' is a player that would play the character that way anyway.[/quote']

 

And he'll still have in-game problems caused by his Vengefulness, problems that don't result because of abilities he didn't purchase but because of a disadvantage on the character sheet over and above the manner in which he designed his character.

[Checkmate]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

A character without stats over NCM presumably spent his remaining points somewhere. That's "another set of advantages" too.

This is a very good point, but I'm not sure I agree it's the same thing. I'm having a hard time trying to put into words my arguments against it, so I'll have to think on this more.

 

I'm not sure you've convinced me it's not a disad, but you have convinced to ensure that I make clear when players take this disad, it can't be bought off...Although I'm not even sure that's a problem. That's 20points those other players were using to improve their characters.

 

I don't know, I see your point, but I think you're using a very narrow example by only using EGOists, who are probably most likely to stay under the NCM without a detrimental effect. I typically see this in Nick Fury or Batman type characters. I think Martial Artists and Gun Bunnies would be sufficiently hindered by this disad (in some campaigns).

[JmOz]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

here is a related question to think about

 

Would you let a player take some kind of disad or limitation in a 1940's based game for being a tecnopath (Able to telepathicaly communicate with computers, not machines, just computers and computer controled items). There will be sometimes when it comes in useful, but will be nowhere near as useful as it would be in a modern + type game

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

This is a very good point, but I'm not sure I agree it's the same thing. I'm having a hard time trying to put into words my arguments against it, so I'll have to think on this more.

 

I'm not sure you've convinced me it's not a disad, but you have convinced to ensure that I make clear when players take this disad, it can't be bought off...Although I'm not even sure that's a problem. That's 20points those other players were using to improve their characters.

 

I don't know, I see your point, but I think you're using a very narrow example by only using EGOists, who are probably most likely to stay under the NCM without a detrimental effect. I typically see this in Nick Fury or Batman type characters. I think Martial Artists and Gun Bunnies would be sufficiently hindered by this disad (in some campaigns).

 

The Egoist is a very narrow example. Have you ever seen a Brick or a Martial Artist in a traditional Supers campaign take NCM by choice? Only characters who aren't going to be significantly hindered will take NCM - that's the problem with it.

 

Why would any character who would be significantly hindered by NCM reasonably take it? if you're buying a 29 DEX for your martial artist, paying an extra 27 points more than offsets the value of the NCM disadvantage, so you would simply never take it. Even a 23 DEX and 23 CON offsets 15 of the 20 disadvantage points - 15 points that could be put to better use elsewhere if you took another disadvantage instead. Thus, NCM is taken primarily (or exclusively) by those characters whose construction alllows them to avoid the drawback of doubled costs because they don't have stats that will attract that drawback. I use Mentalists as an example as that is the most common type of character (other than those who use the rules as written to circumvent the disadvantage by purchasing stats through a limitation or other power) who is not disadvantaged, and therefore takes the disadvantage.

 

here is a related question to think about

 

Would you let a player take some kind of disad or limitation in a 1940's based game for being a tecnopath (Able to telepathicaly communicate with computers, not machines, just computers and computer controled items). There will be sometimes when it comes in useful, but will be nowhere near as useful as it would be in a modern + type game

 

My answer is probably not overly illustrative, because I consider the "classes of mind" rules inappropriate. I would consider a better rule to be that mental powers affect intelligent sentient targets (human class and alien class as the rules are written) by default. If you want to add other classes of mind (computers, animals) that would be an adder, much like Flash can have an adder to affect both sight and sound. If you want it not to affect some entities it would affect by default, that would be a limitation. If you want to affect only computers/animals, that would be a 3 point per die power (like Hearing or Smell Flash).

 

Assuming a character took this in a '40s game, I would then look to the default types of machinery I would let the character affect for 3 points per die, and consider a limitation if "computers only" shaved off a lot of such machines.

[Tech]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

We have Normal Characteristic Maxima in our campaign; we use the disadvantage from the 4th edition of Champions.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Only characters who aren't going to be significantly hindered will take NCM - that's the problem with it.

 

One problem, anyway.

 

I don't use the accounting model of character creation as my primary means of assessing character builds these days; I also look at the character sheet as a series of requests from the player to the GM for particular story elements to show up in the game. The guy with an energy blast on his sheet is asking the GM to include story moments where his character gets to blast stuff; the guy with the DNPC is asking for story moments when he gets to talk with and help out his DNPC. What's the guy with NCM asking for? Moments when another PC says "Ha, Normal Guy, your player paid 48 points for your 23 DEX, while my player paid only 39!"

 

From a Player point of view, NCM may limit the way he spends points on the character. From a Character point of view, it doesn't mean anything. Characters don't know they have "points", or players. They don't know that their player had to spend more points than some other player for their characteristics. In play, NCM adds nothing to the story.

 

You can point to stories about the "ordinary" Batman defeating powered foes, but those stories would play out exactly the same way in game whether Batman's player spent 15 points or 20 for Batman's 25 STR, 39 or 48 for his 23 DEX.

 

I'm not saying "don't set campaign limits" or "don't define what humans can and can't do before they count as Supers"; I just don't see a good reason to use NCM as a disadvantage to do that.

[casualplayer]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Maybe it's just me, but my world is chock full of Adjustment attacks that wash right over people with NCM, NNDs where the defense is NCM, Detectors that go Ping! if you don't have NCM, etc. In my superheroic games, I soft enforce a modal disadvantage category where you either have some sort of Distinctive Feature (alien, mutant, other-dimensional, etc) often paired with a related Phys Lim (odd physiology, requires specialized med care, can't eat Earth foods, etc,) or you have NCM to indicate that you are baseline human.

 

And, yes, I have had many a character (NPC and PC) who has spent more points than they have netted by taking NCM.

[OddHat]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Maybe it's just me' date=' but my world is chock full of Adjustment attacks that wash right over people with NCM, NNDs where the defense is NCM, Detectors that go Ping! if you don't have NCM, etc.[/quote']

 

Never saw any of those in an official write up, nor have I ever run, been in or seen a campaign that used them. I wouldn't say it's "just you"; where one person does something, it's usually a safe bet that others have done something similar. I would say that NCM in a campaign like yours means something different than it does in campaigns not using those game elements.

 

In my superheroic games, I soft enforce a modal disadvantage category where you either have some sort of Distinctive Feature (alien, mutant, other-dimensional, etc) often paired with a related Phys Lim (odd physiology, requires specialized med care, can't eat Earth foods, etc,) or you have NCM to indicate that you are baseline human.

 

Fair and good for a house rule.

[Thaingar]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

It all depends on the campaign ... in my campaign, NCM is a big disadavantage (about equivilant to not being able to walk). The biggest limiting factor is Speed (though the other stats hurt too). Very few "supers" in my campaign would qualify for the NCM limitation as even the "normals" tend to exceed the NCM limit on Dex, Con, and Speed. (And I wouldn't classify Batman as having NCM either.) Of course, if it's not uncommon for characters in your campaign to be bought with no stats that exceed NCM, then it might not be worth anything in your campaign. I also don't have a problem with a NCM character having some stats (Str, Dex, Pre, Speed, and possibly Body) above the limit bought through Foci (so long as the "Does not add to figured char" limit also applies).

 

Should Superman get points for "Double cost to buy magical powers"? Sorry, the two don't equate. Everyone has stats. Not everyone has magical powers.

 

That's just how I see it ... it works well in my campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

It all depends on the campaign ... in my campaign, NCM is a big disadavantage (about equivilant to not being able to walk). The biggest limiting factor is Speed (though the other stats hurt too). Very few "supers" in my campaign would qualify for the NCM limitation as even the "normals" tend to exceed the NCM limit on Dex, Con, and Speed. (And I wouldn't classify Batman as having NCM either.) Of course, if it's not uncommon for characters in your campaign to be bought with no stats that exceed NCM, then it might not be worth anything in your campaign. I also don't have a problem with a NCM character having some stats (Str, Dex, Pre, Speed, and possibly Body) above the limit bought through Foci (so long as the "Does not add to figured char" limit also applies).

 

Should Superman get points for "Double cost to buy magical powers"? Sorry, the two don't equate. Everyone has stats. Not everyone has magical powers.

 

Not everyone has stats above the NCM limit.

 

Please explain one thing to me. Assume we have two characters, as follows:

 

Character A has STR 18, DEX 20, CON 20, BOD 12, Int 18, Ego 20, PRE 10, COM 8, PD 5, ED 5, Spd 4, Rec 8, Stun 31 and END 40.

 

Character B has STR 18, DEX 20, CON 20, BOD 12, Int 18, Ego 20, PRE 10, COM 8, PD 5, ED 5, Spd 4, Rec 8, Stun 31 and END 40 and the disadvantage NCM.

 

What is the difference between the two characters? How does NCM create a disadvantage to Character B any more than "Can't spend XP on skills", "Pays double to buy off disadvantages" or "Must pay double to increase movement powers beyond 10" " ? The disadvantage is in the fact that the character lacks statistics above the NCM level. All characters have the "disadvantage" that they lack powers, skills and abilities they didn't pay for. Wht are certain levels of characteristics the only ability singled out to merit a special reward of extra character points?

 

In many games, the character with NCM may feel quite constrained. However:

 

(a) Is he more constrained than a character who "must pay double for any attack power exceeding 2/3 of campaign maximum damage classes"? What about "must pay double for attacks and defenses greater than 80% of the campaign average"? Those last few damage classes, in particular, are the most powerful in that they are the ones that exceed defenses, and inflict damage, so taking only 8d6, or 9 1/2d6, in a game where the cap is 12d6, or the average is 12d6, respectively, seems pretty limiting to me.

 

( He is constrained by the decision of where to allocate his points, not by the disadvantage. A character who sells back 3" running and buys no other movement powers is likely to feel pretty constrained in combat too, as everyone else zips across the field of combat. Should he get a disadvantage for it? I'd say no - he already got back the character points everyone else spent on movement powers. But the NCM character already got back the points everyone else spent on higher stats, so I don't see him needing an extra disadvantage.

 

How about this, though? If your character wants a disad for NCM, he can have one worth exactly half as many points as he has spent on stats above the NCM. And he can even have it over and above his regular limit of disadvantages! That way, the point savings for the disadvantage is commensurate with the extent to which it has limited the character!

[Thaingar]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I'd certainly let someone take a disadavantage (Physical Limitation: Lame leg, Frequent, Slight, 10 pts perhaps ... though frequency would depend on other factors) AND sell back 3" of running. As for a limitation: Can't spend XP on skills ... I'd allow that too -- probably for more than 20 points since it is more limiting than double cost for skills -- if it made sense for the character. (Brain damaged? Pre-programmed android that with no more RAM? etc.). Again, here we're talking about things available to everyone. Can't buy Magic Powers? If Magic Powers are extra-ordinarily common (like in a fantasy setting or a Super-Magic campaign) ... sure. That's worth some points. As for worrying about characters getting something for nothing ... if NCM isn't a restriction in your game, then yeah ... it'worth nothing. However, in any truly "super" game, it's worth points IMO.

 

EDIT:

 

As a side note, I tend to be a bit more "permissive" with disadvantages in my supers campaigns anyway. At just 150 points of disdavantages, you're looking at an average of 10 or more disadvantages. With 5 players, that's 50 disadvantages to address. If you REALLY want to make players "earn" those disadvantage points you need to address each and every one of those on a regular basis. Do you really want your campaign to devolve into, "Okay, whose turn is it to get shafted by your Disads this Phase?" I think as Disdavantages as being used to add flavor ... and yes, to me, saying this guy is stuck at the normal human level while Superman, Flash, Wonderwoman, The Martian Manhunter, and everyone else are virtual gods IS a disadvantage.

 

The difference between A & B btw ... one has the OPTION to improve to superhuman levels later.

 

And balancing the cost of NCM by basing it on the number of points spent over the NCM limits? Do you give the guy with a vulnerability to fire more points everytime someone finds out about his weakness or every time you introduce another fire-wielding villain? And take points away when one of those villains is "retired"? Maybe you give him more points for a particular adventure if there's a burning building in it, but take them away the next adventure? Hmm?

[Thaingar]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

NEW RANT: Psych Lims worthless!

 

Psychological Limitations don't limit a character, just their DECISIONS! If I plan on playing a character that never kills, then taking a Code Vs Killing isn't worth any points! Why, it's as worthless as taking NCM on a character when I don't plan on buying any stats over NCM anyway. I propose that instead, you only give points for someone with a Psych Lim when they break it, since that's the only time it actually limits them.

 

PS: For those that didn't "get it" ... that was strictly tongue in cheek. Only the GM (and the players) can decide whether a particular disadvantage is limiting in their campaign. Go with what works.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

I'd certainly let someone take a disadavantage (Physical Limitation: Lame leg' date=' Frequent, Slight, 10 pts perhaps ... though frequency would depend on other factors) AND sell back 3" of running. As for a limitation: Can't spend XP on skills ... I'd allow that too -- probably for more than 20 points since it is more limiting than double cost for skills -- if it made sense for the character. (Brain damaged? Pre-programmed android that with no more RAM? etc.). Again, here we're talking about things available to everyone. Can't buy Magic Powers? If Magic Powers are extra-ordinarily common (like in a fantasy setting or a Super-Magic campaign) ... sure. That's worth some points. As for worrying about characters getting something for nothing ... if NCM isn't a restriction in your game, then yeah ... it'worth nothing. However, in any truly "super" game, it's worth points IMO.[/quote']

 

To the leg, I'd also look at situations where that lame leg might limit the character. He probably tires easily, likely lacks NCM running (or it costs extra END), may have extra difficulties with rough terrain, stairs, etc. That's quite different from selling back 3" of running.

 

So can a Brick get a disad for "cannot buy Energy Projector powers" (or for having such powers cost double) in a Supers game? They're quite common. Can a character have points for being limited to less than the campaign max (or campaign average) defenses and/or attack levels? It's very common for every PC to have a campaign max, or at least campaign norm, level attack.

 

As a side note' date=' I tend to be a bit more "permissive" with disadvantages in my supers campaigns anyway. At just 150 points of disdavantages, you're looking at an average of 10 or more disadvantages. With 5 players, that's 50 disadvantages to address. If you REALLY want to make players "earn" those disadvantage points you need to address each and every one of those on a regular basis. Do you really want your campaign to devolve into, "Okay, whose turn is it to get shafted by your Disads this Phase?" I think as Disdavantages as being used to add flavor ... and yes, to me, saying this guy is stuck at the normal human level while Superman, Flash, Wonderwoman, The Martian Manhunter, and everyone else are virtual gods IS a disadvantage.[/quote']

 

To me, "reduce the number of disadvantages for everyone" would be superior to "give points away for things that aren't actually disadvantageous".

 

The difference between A & B btw ... one has the OPTION to improve to superhuman levels later.

 

Actually, they both do. One just has to buy off his NCM disadvantage if he wants to buy up point-effectively. Does that require a radiation accident? maybe, maybe not. But shouldn't either character, assuming both were defined as having normal human statistics, be required to justify developing superhuman stats?

 

And balancing the cost of NCM by basing it on the number of points spent over the NCM limits? Do you give the guy with a vulnerability to fire more points everytime someone finds out about his weakness or every time you introduce another fire-wielding villain? And take points away when one of those villains is "retired"? Maybe you give him more points for a particular adventure if there's a burning building in it' date=' but take them away the next adventure? Hmm?[/quote']

 

No, you give him more points at the outset because fire is more common than many other special effects, just like the rules say. In other words, you base the points recovered on the extent to which the disadvantage will limit the character. If he is Vulnerable to Solar Powered Cold Weapons Weilded by Green Froglike Martians, or Hammer Blows from Norwegian Octogenerian Architects, I suspect that's worth less than being vulnerable to Fire (significantly less in most games...).

 

Automotons who Take no Stun don't get any points for taking 2x Stun from anything, and blind characters can't also take 2x effect from Sight Flash Attacks. NCM is precisely as disadvantageous as the extra points spent on stats, no more and no less.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

NEW RANT: Psych Lims worthless!

 

Psychological Limitations don't limit a character, just their DECISIONS! If I plan on playing a character that never kills, then taking a Code Vs Killing isn't worth any points! Why, it's as worthless as taking NCM on a character when I don't plan on buying any stats over NCM anyway. I propose that instead, you only give points for someone with a Psych Lim when they break it, since that's the only time it actually limits them.

 

PS: For those that didn't "get it" ... that was strictly tongue in cheek. Only the GM (and the players) can decide whether a particular disadvantage is limiting in their campaign. Go with what works.

 

This spurious argument also appears from time to time. If you are Honourable, bet on situations arising where that Honour will place you at a disadvantage against a treacherous opponent. What disadvantage will ovvur due to your NCM which is not occuring due to your lack of higher stats (which was decided by how many points you spent on the stats, not by the NCM disadvantage).

 

If I have no powers with Range, should I get a Disadvantage for "costs double to buy powers with Range"? That's certainly disadvantageous when dealing with certain opponents.

 

"Power defense costs double" would certainly be a drawback against characters with adjustment powers, and "Flash Defense costs double" will make defeating a character with a Flash more difficult.

 

Anything I don't spend points on can be disadvantageous to me at some point in time. if it makes sense to award disadvantage points for NOT buying certain stats (or having them cost double should he choose to buy them), it must make sense to award disadvantage points for everything a character didn't buy (or which will cost double should he choose to buy them). The only question is how much each individual set of restrictions should generate in disadvantage points.

 

How many points for "can't buy off NCM disadvantage", or "Costs double to buy off NCM disadvantage", by the way? Can I make my NCM "Inherent" for 5 points more?

[Thaingar]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

Yes, the can both increase to superhuman levels later ... but I think you knew what was meant. As for buying off the NCM ... that would probably require a "radiation accident" in my campaign. The player would have to save up 25 points (that's a lot since I am very cheap with experience and players get to spend them as hero points).

 

I prefer to focus less on disadvantages ... however, EVERY disadvantage will be a hinderance to some degree at some time or another. NCM just happens to be one every time you spend experience by limiting your options. (Just like a code vs killing is one everytime you have the chance or inclination to kill a villain.)

 

And you are WAY off base saying that the value of NCM is only as good as the extra points you spend. You totally miss the point of the disad. Again, I point to the Psych Lims. Why give points to someone for role-playing their character the way they intended to role-play it to start with? Because it limits their options. Just like NCM does. As for other powers (ranged powers for bricks) ... well, if practically EVERY character has ranged powers, then sure ... you could take a limitation for that. Of course, if you're strong, you can throw stuff ... heavy stuff ... so the limitation wouldn't be worth as much to a brick (who already has some inherent ranged abilty) as it would to a martial artist in a campaign where EVERYONE has powerful ranged attacks and high movement. Then again ... there would have to be a rationale as to WHY he could never buy them. NCM has a rationale behind it: physically, you're a normal joe. Whats the rationale for "can't buy ranged attacks"? Sounds more like a ... PSYCH LIM: Code vs using ranged attacks. Would you give points to someone for that?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Heroic Characteristic Maxima?

 

And you are WAY off base saying that the value of NCM is only as good as the extra points you spend. You totally miss the point of the disad. Again' date=' I point to the Psych Lims. Why give points to someone for role-playing their character the way they intended to role-play it to start with? Because it limits their options.[/quote']

 

Because it limits their options IN PLAY,

Just like NCM does

not.

 

In my view, in Hero, you start with a base template. You have primary stats of 10 and the resulting Figured Characteristics. You can see, hear ,smell, taste and feel as well as a normal human. You have 6" of Running and 2" of swimming. You come equipped with two functional arms. You get certain basic skills (Everyman skills) and knowledge (a knowledge of earth culture) Etc.

 

If you wish to add something to that template (eg. you can fly, you are more agile, you know how to fly a fighter jet, you are king of a small nation), you pay points for the addition. Now, you can do something that others cannot.

 

If you are prepared to subtract something from that template, you get points back. If you can't see, or are missing one or both arms, or sell back some CON, you recover points (all but the last as disadvantages). If you sell back the free will to tactically choose whether to kill, or to lie, or to resist the Temptations of Eve, you get disadvantage points.

 

You should not , and cannot, pay points to get more points, and you should not get points for restrictions on how you spend your points, and you don't - except for this anomolous NCM! If you can get 20 points back for NCM, why can't you pay some number of points (20? 30? Whatever) to cut the cost of stats over NCM in half? Call it the "Superhuman" perk.