Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

[bjvargas]

k, I am probably just being dense again, but...

 

 

5ER, pg. 220

 

Skills (as powers)

 

It says skills can be purchased as powers, then gives the example of Chen Kwai buying his Martial Arts with a Gem Focus.

 

1) How would one go about doing that?

 

2) How would one go about doing that in HD3?

 

Thanks!

[Clonus]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

You just get the skill and then put a limitation on it as if it were a power.

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Uhhhh, hmmmm.

 

K, so I go to the Martial Arts tab,

I click on, say, Hand To Hand,

I dbl-click on, say, Basic Strike,

I click on the Add Modifier... button,

I click on Limitations, and...

 

Nothing is there. Empty window. I click on Unavailable Limitations and every limitation is listed.

I click on one of those,

I click on View Reason and it says,

"Only Advantages can be applied to individual Maneuvers"

 

I don't get it...but then again, I am sure I am still being dense, lol.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Go to the powers section, then ... holy crud there isn't a martial arts section in powers in HD. Never noticed that.

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

YupYup.

 

I hate taking another thing to Dan...but I am beginning to think I must...

[JmOz]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Go to the MA tab, you can apply the limitations there

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

The MA tab is where I started. Can you tell me where in the tab I can do that?

 

Within that tab I can apply advantages, but it tells me limitations are not allowed (or something like that - whatever I typed above)

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

"Only Advantages can be applied to individual Maneuvers"

 

is what I get within the MA tab

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Limitations may only be applied to a "style" (a style is defined as 10 or more points of Maneuvers).

 

1. Make a list

 

2. Add 10 or more points' worth of Maneuvers to the list

 

3. Assign Limitations to the List (style).

 

This is done in accordance with the rules of the system.

 

You cannot purchase an individual Maneuver with Limitations, also in accordance with the rules of the system.

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Ok, I was trying to avoid looking dumb in front of you yet again, but you found me out

 

Well, at least I now understand what list is for and how to use it.

 

Thanks

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Of course I tried that, and I am still having difficulty - wouldn't ya know.

 

I set them up in the list. I started applying limitations, and I noticed no cost change. So to really test it out, I made a Custom Limitation of -10, and still had no change in cost. Here are the results with No Limitations, and with the -10.

 

NO Lim:

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver Speedster Martial Arts (Ultimate Speedster)5 1) Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge [Notes: Dodge All Attacks; Abort; F-move] 5 2) Flying Grab: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab, Area Of Effect (8" Radius; +1 3/4), Selective (+1/4) [Notes: Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on; FMove == The Flying Grab maneuver allows the speedster to run up to someone and grab him.] 5 3) Flying Throw: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, Throw [Notes: Grab Two Limbs; STR + v/5; Target Falls; FMove == The Flying Throw maneuver allows the speedster to grab someone and then throw him, using the speedster’s own velocity to increase the damage.] 5 4) Passing Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Disarm [Notes: Disarm, +10 STR to Disarm roll; FMove == The Passing Disarm involves running past the target and snatching something out of his hand.] 5 5) Passing Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Strike [Notes: STR + v/5; FMove == The Passing Strike involves running past the target and hitting him, using the speedster’s velocity to augment the blow.] 5 6) Passing Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Throw [Notes: STR + v/5; Target Falls; FMove == The Passing Throw maneuver allows the speedster to “intercept” another moving character and trip or throw him so that the target’s own velocity works against him.] 5 7) Pressure Wave: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, 2 1/2 d6 NND [Notes: The Pressure Wave involves running around the target at high speed to batter him with increased air pressure, or the speedster rapidly pumping his arm to create a short-range “pressure blast” of compressed air; in either case the defense is Life Support (Safe Environment: High Pressure).] 5 8) Rapid Punch: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, Punch [Notes: STR + 4d6 Strike == The Rapid Punch involves hitting the target several times in the space of a second;] 4 9) Rapid Chop: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Chop [Notes: HKA ½d6 (2 DC) == Rapid Chop does the same as Rapid Punch (to more lethal effect) using the edge of the palm, or possibly the whole hand to rub something at hyper-speeds to create damaging friction.] 4 10) Spinning Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Strike [Notes: +15 STR vs. Grabs == To use the Spinning Escape, the character spins or vibrates in place so violently that his captor can’t maintain a grip on him.] Martial Arts Cost: 48

 

WITH Lim:

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver Speedster Martial Arts (Ultimate Speedster), all slots Custom Modifier (-10) 5 1) Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: Dodge All Attacks; Abort; F-move] 5 2) Flying Grab: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab, Area Of Effect (8" Radius; +1 3/4), Selective (+1/4); Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: Grab Two Limbs, +10 STR for holding on; FMove == The Flying Grab maneuver allows the speedster to run up to someone and grab him.] 5 3) Flying Throw: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, Throw; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: Grab Two Limbs; STR + v/5; Target Falls; FMove == The Flying Throw maneuver allows the speedster to grab someone and then throw him, using the speedster’s own velocity to increase the damage.] 5 4) Passing Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -1 DCV, Disarm; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: Disarm, +10 STR to Disarm roll; FMove == The Passing Disarm involves running past the target and snatching something out of his hand.] 5 5) Passing Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Strike; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: STR + v/5; FMove == The Passing Strike involves running past the target and hitting him, using the speedster’s velocity to augment the blow.] 5 6) Passing Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Throw; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: STR + v/5; Target Falls; FMove == The Passing Throw maneuver allows the speedster to “intercept” another moving character and trip or throw him so that the target’s own velocity works against him.] 5 7) Pressure Wave: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, 2 1/2 d6 NND; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: The Pressure Wave involves running around the target at high speed to batter him with increased air pressure, or the speedster rapidly pumping his arm to create a short-range “pressure blast” of compressed air; in either case the defense is Life Support (Safe Environment: High Pressure).] 5 8) Rapid Punch: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, -2 DCV, Punch; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: STR + 4d6 Strike == The Rapid Punch involves hitting the target several times in the space of a second;] 4 9) Rapid Chop: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Chop; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: HKA ½d6 (2 DC) == Rapid Chop does the same as Rapid Punch (to more lethal effect) using the edge of the palm, or possibly the whole hand to rub something at hyper-speeds to create damaging friction.] 4 10) Spinning Escape: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Strike; Custom Modifier (-10) [Notes: +15 STR vs. Grabs == To use the Spinning Escape, the character spins or vibrates in place so violently that his captor can’t maintain a grip on him.] Martial Arts Cost: 48

 

So what am I doing wrong *this* time? lol

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

You're not applying any Advantages.

 

A Limitation will only affect an Advantaged Maneuver (once again, in accordance with the rules of the system).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

As I posted in the HD Thread:

 

p64 under Martial Arts "You cannot apply Limitations to Martial Maneuvers."

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

1) Ugh! I thought I deleted my post here when I moved it to the HD thread.

 

But 2) The actual quote is, "Generally, characters may not put Limitations on

Martial Maneuvers, but the GM can allow them to.

 

As for what you say Dan, I will have to take your word on it - I can't find anything in the rules that specifically says that, so I figured they were like anything else, you don't need an Advantage to also apply a Limitation - but my track record hasn't been all that good lately

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Please see the HD thread on this topic for the ongoing trials and tribulations of (and caused by) bjvargas

 

(yup, that means more trouble)

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

As I posted in the HD Thread:

 

p64 under Martial Arts "You cannot apply Limitations to Martial Maneuvers."

 

Not to mention that it conflicts with the example given for Chen Kwai on page 220, where it says, "Chen Kwai wears a gem which tells him how to fight. He purchases his Martial Arts with the Limitation, Inobvious Accessible Focus

(Gemstone). However, if he ever loses the gem, he becomes unable to use Martial Arts."

 

So I am not sure what to make of it all, lol.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

You're not applying any Advantages.

 

A Limitation will only affect an Advantaged Maneuver (once again, in accordance with the rules of the system).

 

Slap a +0 Custom Advantage on it and Limitation away. [Or build your character sheet yourself andf forget HD!]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

As I posted in the HD Thread:

 

p64 under Martial Arts "You cannot apply Limitations to Martial Maneuvers."

 

Generally' date=' characters may not put limitations on Martial Maneuvers, but the GM can allow them to.[/quote']

 

That's a much less restructive quote. Contrast with the absolute requirement to purchase at least 10 Active Points points of maneuvers - no "generally" or "GM's may allow" in sight there.

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Slap a +0 Custom Advantage on it and Limitation away.

Feel free -- won't affect the cost any, as the Limitations apply to the Advantaged cost of the Maneuver (effectively, the Advantages are treated as Naked Advantages, applying to the calculated Active Cost of the Maneuver) -- yes, it is rediculously complicated....no arguments here.

 

If you have, for example, Charge purchased with +1 in advantages, the Active Cost is 44. Limitations apply to the +40 points from the Advantages.

 

If you apply +0 in Advantages, there is nothing for the Limitations to apply to, so they have no effect.

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

That's a much less restructive quote. Contrast with the absolute requirement to purchase at least 10 Active Points points of maneuvers - no "generally" or "GM's may allow" in sight there.

Technically, all are correct -- Limitations do not apply to the Maneuver, but to the pseudo-Naked Advantage that is applied to the Maneuver. They apply to the increase in Active Cost from any Advantages that have been applied.

 

Calculating just what that increase is turns out to be rediculously complicated, but that's just the nature of the beast, in this case.

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Now if only I could get that to work... see the HD thread about this, if interested. Doesn't appear to be working for ghost-angel either.

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Now if only I could get that to work... see the HD thread about this' date=' if interested. Doesn't appear to be working for ghost-angel either.[/quote']

It's working just fine -- you're just not understanding the rules.

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Uhhhh...hmm. You told me to put advantages on. Then to put the limitations on. In my example above, that is exactly what I did. I followed your directions exactly. I put the skills into a List (more than 10 AP worth, as directed). Then I did the advantage/limitation work on the List, as directed.

 

I put +2 Advantages on all the slots in the list. 5 AP skills in the list did not go up in AP - they remanined at 5 AP. I then put a -1 Lim on all slots on the list. Obviously, if the +2 Adv didn't increase the cost.

 

*Forget the limitations* altogether for a moment. To restate, I followed your instructions exactly. I created the list. I put the skills (more than 10 pts worth) into the list. I applied advantages to the skills. The costs did not change. And this time it wasn't just me. The same happened to ghost-angel.

 

Off to uninstall/reinstall my java.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Not to mention that it conflicts with the example given for Chen Kwai on page 220' date=' where it says, "[i']Chen Kwai wears a gem which tells him how to fight. He purchases his Martial Arts with the Limitation, Inobvious Accessible Focus

(Gemstone). However, if he ever loses the gem, he becomes unable to use Martial Arts."

 

So I am not sure what to make of it all, lol.

[/i]

 

Yeah, but you notice how that example doesn't give you the points involved?

It's the only example in the book I can find that doesn't do that.

 

I posted a response in the other thread specifically on how HD is working.

 

As a note: Hero Designer is not intended to replace the rules, but implement the core base rules. Once you start going off into "Generally" and "With The GMs Permission" Land Hero Designer hands you a pineapple and wishes you luck.

[Loxly]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

As a note: Hero Designer is not intended to replace the rules' date=' but implement the core base rules. Once you start going off into "Generally" and "With The GMs Permission" Land Hero Designer hands you a pineapple and wishes you luck.[/quote']

 

The question is though ... Did Hero Designer "pull the pin" or not?

 

I'm gonna have to take a look at this when I get home.