Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Uhhhh...hmm. You told me to put advantages on. Then to put the limitations on. In my example above, that is exactly what I did. I followed your directions exactly. I put the skills into a List (more than 10 AP worth, as directed). Then I did the advantage/limitation work on the List, as directed.

 

I put +2 Advantages on all the slots in the list. 5 AP skills in the list did not go up in AP - they remanined at 5 AP. I then put a -1 Lim on all slots on the list. Obviously, if the +2 Adv didn't increase the cost.

 

*Forget the limitations* altogether for a moment. To restate, I followed your instructions exactly. I created the list. I put the skills (more than 10 pts worth) into the list. I applied advantages to the skills. The costs did not change. And this time it wasn't just me. The same happened to ghost-angel.

 

Off to uninstall/reinstall my java.

No clue what you're doing, but when I make a List with +2 in Advantages and add Maneuvers to the List, I get point costs of 84 points for Charge, 55 points for Defensive Block, 64 points for Counterstrike, etc.

 

Sure seems to be working to me.

 

If I then apply Limitations to the list, the costs are reduced appropriately.

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Yeah, but you notice how that example doesn't give you the points involved?

It's the only example in the book I can find that doesn't do that.

 

I posted a response in the other thread specifically on how HD is working.

 

As a note: Hero Designer is not intended to replace the rules, but implement the core base rules. Once you start going off into "Generally" and "With The GMs Permission" Land Hero Designer hands you a pineapple and wishes you luck.

 

I can't disagree with you there. And that is all anyone had to tell mein the first place. "Not supposed to do it, so HD isn't set up for it."

 

Hell, even if I had been told, "Try this...whoops, I thought work-around would work." Or, "There are rules in another book you might be missing."

 

But somehow it seems to have grown well past all that pleasantry.

[bjvargas]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

No clue what you're doing, but when I make a List with +2 in Advantages and add Maneuvers to the List, I get point costs of 84 points for Charge, 55 points for Defensive Block, 64 points for Counterstrike, etc.

 

Sure seems to be working to me.

 

If I then apply Limitations to the list, the costs are reduced appropriately.

 

I don't know either - twas the same for ghost-angel too /shrug But then, evidence now shows (via ghost-angel's valid points) and you telling me that there are rules saying it shouldn't be working the way I want it to in UMA that I am not supposed to be doing so anyway. I don't mind doing a workaround to get the points back, for GM approval stuff, when HD is intentionally built not to do something.

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

I don't know either - twas the same for ghost-angel too /shrug But then' date=' evidence now shows (via ghost-angel's valid points) and you telling me that there are rules saying it shouldn't be working the way I want it to in UMA that I am not supposed to be doing so anyway. I don't mind doing a workaround to get the points back, for GM approval stuff, when HD is intentionally built not to do something.[/quote']

You're not listening: it is NOT a workaround that you need to perform. HD is implementing the optional "GM approval stuff" in the exact manner that the rules dictate. You are not familiar with those rules.

 

I would suggest that until such time as you become familiar with those rules that you do not utilize the optional "GM approval stuff".

 

There is a HUGE amount of detail that goes into the calculation of Active Points on Maneuvers and how Limitations apply to them.

 

ghost-angel had things working just fine. And said as much. He purchased a Maneuver with a +1/4 Advantage. The cost ended up at 11 points, in complete accordance with the rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

At the risk of sticking my nose where it doesn't belong...

 

It sounds like the answer from Dan's end is that the software follows the rules properly, and I have no reason to doubt him. I suspect the rules he is referring to are in Ultimate Martial Artist (a page cite might be helpful to the OP), and not in 5er, but I may be missing them.

 

The answer, to me, would be to discuss whether my GM would allow martial arts to be purchased with a limitation, much as it is described in the example in 5er, notwithstanding the fact that UMA (or whatever other source) says that this is not the manner in which such limitations apply. If he is not prepared to allow it, then you simply follow the HD rules.

 

If he is prepared to allow it (hey, the first rule of Hero is that you break the rules if it works for your game), then you will need to build the character outside Hero Designer, as this approach departs from the Hero rules to the point that HD does not support it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Here's what happening mechanically.

 

First reference;

Advantages For Martial Arts: UMA p104

Naked Advantages: 5ER p244-245

 

Advantages for MAs are purchased as Naked Advantages for the maneuver in question - HD displays them inclusively, I'm guessing for convenience and ease of use.

 

Thus any Limitation applied to a Maneuver with an Advantage is technically being applied to the Naked Advantage bought for the maneuver, not the maneuver.

 

Similar to say Armor Piercing for STR60, x3END.

the x3END is applied the Naked Advantage: Armor Piercing not to the STR.

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Almost, but not quite. The Limitations are applied against the total cost of the Advantaged Maneuver. The main rules caveat in play that prevents Limitations from having any effect on a non-Advantaged Maneuver is that a Maneuver cannot be reduced below its initial/base cost.

 

Take, for example, Charge:

 

Base cost of the Maneuver: 4 points

 

Cost of the Maneuver with +1 in Advantages applied: 44 points

 

Cost of the Maneuver with +1 in Advantages and -1 in Limitations applied: 22 points.

 

If you only applied Limitations to the Naked Advantage portion of the build, the math would be easy (or easier) and the final cost with Limitations of the above would work out to 24 points (44 - 4)/(1+1) + 4.

 

Limitations apply to Maneuvers but cannot reduce the cost below the starting point (base cost).

[Zed-F]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

So supposing someone wants to buy plain old regular martial arts based on an OIF 'gem' focus, they can do it, they just won't get a cost break for the OIF gem?

[Simon]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

So supposing someone wants to buy plain old regular martial arts based on an OIF 'gem' focus' date=' they can do it, they just won't get a cost break for the OIF gem?[/quote']Correct.

 

If you want to bypass the rules restriction on only applying Modifiers to a style (10 or more points' worth of Maneuvers), you can use the Notes field on the individual Maneuvers to explain the limiting aspects of them (since the Limitations have no effect on the build).

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

Isn't there still an option for "Custom Power"? Set cost to same as Martial Strike, put "Martial Strike + 0/ +2 +2d6" in the descriptor, limit away with GM's permission.

[JmOz]

Re: Martial Arts, Foci, and Possibly HD

 

does the MA manuevers have the option of adding adders? It would be a little work but if it does you could reduce the cost by hand as well if you wanted to (If it does)...That is one way to allow your house rule type thing in...