Damage Shield

[Oruncrest]

Re: Damage Shield

 

Oruncrest,

 

there is one fundamental flaw in your argument. Damage Shield is an Advantage, not a Power. Your argument depends on Damage Shield being treated as it's own power which is not the case according to RAW (rules as written) in 5e or 5er.

 

My Phosphorus Effect example would damage any target that hit the power's owner in HTH. It would also continue to damage them until they wipe off the 'phosphorus' that sticks to them (my special effect choice). My example could also be used offensively so that the power's owner could punch or grab a target and have them be be affected by the power as well. A brick with this power could eventually burn through whatever he could hold on to.

The Rules As Written require the Continuous advantage for the Damage Shield advantage on any power that isn't already constant. Continuous cannot serve two masters, otherwise all Damage Shields in 5th ed would be continuously attacking anyone who was fool to touch them even after the victim broke contact (can you imagine Spider-Man getting shocked over and over and over again by Electro's Damage Shield even after the first shock blasted him 5 hexes away? I didn't think so).

 

It doesn't matter that Damage Shield is an advantage (I already pointed out how the Uncontrolled advantage affects the Continuous advantage, so there's nothing wrong with advantages affecting advantages), not a power, the way the Rules As Written work a Continuous Damage Shield attack won't allow the damage to repeat, just the Damage Shield.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Damage Shield

 

...

 

It doesn't matter that Damage Shield is an advantage (I already pointed out how the Uncontrolled advantage affects the Continuous advantage, so there's nothing wrong with advantages affecting advantages), not a power, the way the Rules As Written work a Continuous Damage Shield attack won't allow the damage to repeat, just the Damage Shield.

 

Normally, the only way that one Advantage can be set up to only affect another Advantage is by way of a Naked Modifier which is not how my example was built.

 

Can you cite a reference backing up your claim of how Uncontrolled interacts with Continuous?

[Oruncrest]

Re: Damage Shield

 

]Normally' date=' the only way that one Advantage can be set up to only affect another Advantage is by way of a Naked Modifier which is not how my example was built.[/quote']

 

1) the effect of the Continuous advantage is to repeat the effects of an attack action without having to make an attack roll.

2) the effect of the Damage Shield advantage is to make a PCs body a reciprocative weapon.

The effect of both those powers put together should mean that anyone touching the empowered PC would suffer an attack upon contact and have that attack repeat itself for every phase the character paid END.

But it's not.

Can you explain why that is if Continuous is being applied to the attack instead of the Damage Shield?

 

Can you cite a reference backing up your claim of how Uncontrolled interacts with Continuous?

 

No. The book mentions that the Base Power has to be be either naturally Constant or have the Continuous advantage bought for it (pg 272 of the HSR Revised), but given that you can't buy Uncontrolled alone for a non-constant power, it doesn't take much insight to realize that Continuous is what's being affected by the Uncontrolled advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Damage Shield

 

1) the effect of the Continuous advantage is to repeat the effects of an attack action without having to make an attack roll.

2) the effect of the Damage Shield advantage is to make a PCs body a reciprocative weapon.

The effect of both those powers put together should mean that anyone touching the empowered PC would suffer an attack upon contact and have that attack repeat itself for every phase the character paid END.

But it's not.

Can you explain why that is if Continuous is being applied to the attack instead of the Damage Shield?

 

 

 

No. The book mentions that the Base Power has to be be either naturally Constant or have the Continuous advantage bought for it (pg 272 of the HSR Revised), but given that you can't buy Uncontrolled alone for a non-constant power, it doesn't take much insight to realize that Continuous is what's being affected by the Uncontrolled advantage.

 

 

Well according to Steve Long, Uncontrolled does work the way I described. He also pointed out that Continuous can be taken a second time on powers with Damage Shield as well.

 

Question regarding Uncontrolled + Damage Shield (& Continuous)

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1384001#post1384001

 

I asked

Question 1.

Would the following attack linger even after the target stopped touching the character with the ability?

 

60 Phosphorus Effect: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Costs END Only To Activate (By using this instead of 0 End the power can still be pushed.; +1/4), Uncontrolled (continues to burn for 1 minute or until scraped off or chemically neutralized; +1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Damage Shield(Offensive; +3/4), Continuous (+1), Penetrating (x2; +1) (75 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only works in presence of oxygen; -1/4) - END=7

 

Question 2.

If the answer to the 1st question is no would it work if the Continuous Advantage was purchased twice instead?

 

Question 3.

What would be the effect of adding the Sticky Advantage?

 

Steve answered:

 

Unless the GM rules otherwise, adding Uncontrolled to a Damage Shield allows the damage caused by the Damage Shield to continue to affect the target after contact between the character and the target ceases, subject of course to whatever condition ends the Uncontrolled effect (including simply running out of END to power it). Buying Continuous a second time for a Damage Shield, or buying it for a Damage Shield based on a Constant Power, also has this effect, but without the need to define a condition or event that ends the damage. Adding Sticky to the power just means that people who touch the victim also become subject to the effect.

__________________

Steve Long

HERO System Line Developer

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Shield

 

1) the effect of the Continuous advantage is to repeat the effects of an attack action without having to make an attack roll.

2) the effect of the Damage Shield advantage is to make a PCs body a reciprocative weapon.

The effect of both those powers put together should mean that anyone touching the empowered PC would suffer an attack upon contact and have that attack repeat itself for every phase the character paid END.

But it's not.

Can you explain why that is if Continuous is being applied to the attack instead of the Damage Shield?

 

To take this further, why does ADDING the Damage Shield ADVANTAGE make the power LESS effective?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Damage Shield

 

And I've always wondered' date=' what if Torchboy wanted his 'body of flame' to not just burn his opponent when they're in physical contact, but to have it burn [b']even after the two have broken off contact[/b]. When I used Champions 3rd & HERO 4th editions, I would've simply called tacked on Continuous to the power & moved on. What do I do now? Buy Continuous twice? Immolators across the world are waiting for an answer.

 

Since I allow Ranged Powers with Damage Shield to take No Range, this is one of three specific effects that I permit for those Powers if they don't take No Range (or if Powers that are No Range by default buy the Ranged Advantage). The other two are: if the DS is part of a Ranged Power combo, e.g. a Force Wall which damages anyone who touches it; or a DS that's Usable On Others so it can be thrown on someone at a distance by the Power's possessor. I only permit one of these effects per Damage Shield, based on how it's defined.

 

Note that official published builds for the Force Wall/DS combo I exampled above haven't required the DS construct to buy Ranged in order to work at range in conjunction with the FW.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Damage Shield

 

Hypermans DS construct that he used just goes back to an earlier statement I made where I pointed out that as it currently sits, DS is only ever seen in some sort of heavily advantaged Penetrating KA. Now I'm going to go further and suggest that the advantage as written is so awful that no one will even consider buying it with anything other than the aforementioned KA's or NND's.