Help with Power: Regen as Armor

[Cancer]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

Not being around my books, what's the cost for CON, limited so that all it does is boost the stunning threshold?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

Not being around my books' date=' what's the cost for CON, limited so that all it does is boost the stunning threshold?[/quote']

 

Can't recall if there is an 'official' limitation, but -1/2 is 'no figured' and apart from that, you really don't use CON for much at all, except the odd, very rare, CON roll and, of course, stunning protection. Oh and powers that have been made to work against Ego then have been based on stun.

 

I'd say -3/4, absolute tops.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

I should stop posting at work' date=' where it takes me an hour to type a post...[/quote']

 

 

I should stop posting at work and go home....

[pinecone]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

Slight Tangent: Two people in this thread have mentioned adding Invisible Power Effect to Armour. Isn't Armour already invisible (being an innately 0-End power)?

 

It is a flavor thang You may by rule, have "armor" that is not visable...but many people will not allow the effect of armor to be invisable..."I.e. "The bullets bounce off his steel hard flesh" Not "you shoot him" (but I don't mark off damage because he took none)

 

You use Invis to conceal the powers effect, rather than it use....many are happy handwaving this...others are not happy doing that.....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

It is a flavor thang You may by rule, have "armor" that is not visable...but many people will not allow the effect of armor to be invisable..."I.e. "The bullets bounce off his steel hard flesh" Not "you shoot him" (but I don't mark off damage because he took none)

 

You use Invis to conceal the powers effect, rather than it use....many are happy handwaving this...others are not happy doing that.....

 

 

Well, the rules give you the option to affect either.

 

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 168-169; Revised, page 261-262)

Most Powers and/or their sources can be perceived by three Sense Groups. The special effects of a Power with Invisible Power Effects are not perceivable when it is in use.

 

Also, see this screen shot of options within HDv3:

[SteveZilla]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

This is exactly what I am trying to figure out to a T. All of the builds here are perfectly valid but don't hit the heart of this issue I am after which is to properly model a very specific effect...

 

If I can regen 5 points of body (and in theory 15 points of stun at the same time). Then how do I build the actual powers in such a way that I can, without conscious action (i.e. on every segment including those where I have no action) protect from (armor) or repair (regen) exactly 5 total points of Body and 15 total points of Stun?

 

And that should include the case where I get shot once for 3 Body and 18 Stun resulting in a net loss of 3 Stun and regeneration of 2 Body.

 

I know I can build similar effects, but is there a legal power build that results in the above numerical effect which is the correct modeling of the special effect I desire?

 

Questions:

1. Do you want the character to get back Body in the usual way with Regen (i.e., at Post-Phase 12), every Phase, or every Segment?

 

2. When you say "...where I get shot once for 3 Body and 18 Stun...", do you mean before or after the character's defenses?

[Jaxom]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

Questions:

1. Do you want the character to get back Body in the usual way with Regen (i.e., at Post-Phase 12), every Phase, or every Segment?

 

2. When you say "...where I get shot once for 3 Body and 18 Stun...", do you mean before or after the character's defenses?

 

 

The answer to #1 is sometimes. That's where I am really digging for the help here. I'm trying to figure out which tools in the HERO tool-kit allow me to weld together these two powers... I want the Regen Recovery at the end of each segment if and only if I didn't use armor that segment. I want it to be automatic in every segment and not something that requires it to be my phase or requires me to think about activating it or changing from one power to another.

 

The example I gave which leads to #2 I meant that to be before defenses. The idea being to demonstrate that the amount of available Regen is also the limit of the amount of armor and that if that armor is used then the Regen is not.

 

 

The Regen builds that Hyperman posted are fascinating in their use of Trigger... I can think of some very interesting uses for that Trigger since it would be on every attack. Again, it's not what I was looking for because the effect I am thinking of should be limited to a fixed amount per round. I can certainly think of other effects where the build Hperman uses could become very handy.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

The answer to #1 is sometimes. That's where I am really digging for the help here. I'm trying to figure out which tools in the HERO tool-kit allow me to weld together these two powers... I want the Regen Recovery at the end of each segment if and only if I didn't use armor that segment. I want it to be automatic in every segment and not something that requires it to be my phase or requires me to think about activating it or changing from one power to another.

 

Even Regeration of 1 Body each *Segment* is going to be horribly expensive, as that is equivalent to a 120 point Real Cost Regeneration (12 Body/Turn).

 

The example I gave which leads to #2 I meant that to be before defenses. The idea being to demonstrate that the amount of available Regen is also the limit of the amount of armor and that if that armor is used then the Regen is not.

 

I just don't see this working. A single 50 AP Energy Blast hit will do (on average 10 BODY (before Defenses). Now even if the character doesn't have resistent defenses, he's going to have some non-resistent PD & ED. In Hero it's usually way cheaper to mechanically prevent the damage in the first place than make the character recover it afterwards. And there's no reason the F/X of that mechanical prevention can't be "quickly regenerates".

 

IMO most Superheroic PCs are going to have at least a 10 PD & ED. This means that the large majority of the time they won't suffer any Body damage (usually said "took no Body" despite being hit with a body-damage dealing attack).

 

If I understand the overall mechanic you are going for, I'd suggest buying something like:

 

1. Buy his PD and ED to the same level -- the amount of "regeneration" you want him to be able to do each Segment.

2. Buy Damage Resistance for his full PD & ED.

3. Buy that level of Regeneration with "Reduced By BODY Damage Stopped By Defenses During The Turn(-3)"

 

The (resistant) defenses represent the "Regenreation as Armor" (IIRC), and the Regneration is the actual Regeneration. Talk with your GM to see if you can portion out the Regen over the turn instead of waiting for all of it on Post-Phase 12.

[pinecone]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

Even Regeration of 1 Body each *Segment* is going to be horribly expensive, as that is equivalent to a 120 point Real Cost Regeneration (12 Body/Turn).

 

 

 

I just don't see this working. A single 50 AP Energy Blast hit will do (on average 10 BODY (before Defenses). Now even if the character doesn't have resistent defenses, he's going to have some non-resistent PD & ED. In Hero it's usually way cheaper to mechanically prevent the damage in the first place than make the character recover it afterwards. And there's no reason the F/X of that mechanical prevention can't be "quickly regenerates".

 

IMO most Superheroic PCs are going to have at least a 10 PD & ED. This means that the large majority of the time they won't suffer any Body damage (usually said "took no Body" despite being hit with a body-damage dealing attack).

 

If I understand the overall mechanic you are going for, I'd suggest buying something like:

 

1. Buy his PD and ED to the same level -- the amount of "regeneration" you want him to be able to do each Segment.

2. Buy Damage Resistance for his full PD & ED.

3. Buy that level of Regeneration with "Reduced By BODY Damage Stopped By Defenses During The Turn(-3)"

 

The (resistant) defenses represent the "Regenreation as Armor" (IIRC), and the Regneration is the actual Regeneration. Talk with your GM to see if you can portion out the Regen over the turn instead of waiting for all of it on Post-Phase 12.

 

Yeah, a lot of the time when the mechanics look weird/expensive etc...what you're really looking at is special effects....in this case it's "My regen protects me, and can also heal me"...so I'd say buy differant powers/effects for each part....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

As far as I knew, for many, many years, Hulk just had incredibly tough skin over incredibly tough muscles, then a writer (it may have been Peter David, or that may have just been the first time I saw the idea in print - I'm not a particularly regular follower. My recollection is that it explained why Wolverine could cut Hulk, but not kill him) introduced the idea that the apparent invulnerability was in fact incredibly rapid regeneration, which is what it has been ever since.

 

Now my point is that I never realised that was (apparently) happening all along. I mean, if it WAS regen, you'd expect bullets to leave at least SOME blood on the outside, wouldn't you, but it is a comic, and not particularly . I was seeing the sfx, not the mechanics, which is exactly as it should be, and a very good paradigm for Hero, even if, in Hero, we might do it the other way (i.e. with defences) all anyone is ever going to 'see' is the sfx.

 

SteveZilla makes the very good point that 'literally' building regeneration is prohibitively expensive, but you can acheive the 'look and feel' through defences, and lower level healing/regen. To the observer of the character, in game, who 'knows' that the character rapidly regenerates, it will all make perfect sense.

[Jaxom]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

As far as I knew, for many, many years, Hulk just had incredibly tough skin over incredibly tough muscles, then a writer (it may have been Peter David, or that may have just been the first time I saw the idea in print - I'm not a particularly regular follower. My recollection is that it explained why Wolverine could cut Hulk, but not kill him) introduced the idea that the apparent invulnerability was in fact incredibly rapid regeneration, which is what it has been ever since.

 

Now my point is that I never realised that was (apparently) happening all along. I mean, if it WAS regen, you'd expect bullets to leave at least SOME blood on the outside, wouldn't you, but it is a comic, and not particularly . I was seeing the sfx, not the mechanics, which is exactly as it should be, and a very good paradigm for Hero, even if, in Hero, we might do it the other way (i.e. with defences) all anyone is ever going to 'see' is the sfx.

 

SteveZilla makes the very good point that 'literally' building regeneration is prohibitively expensive, but you can acheive the 'look and feel' through defences, and lower level healing/regen. To the observer of the character, in game, who 'knows' that the character rapidly regenerates, it will all make perfect sense.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this. And I know that my original question was a kinda obscure build which is why I brought it here. Using regen as a special effect for armor is not something I have a problem with at all but it leads to situations which numerically look strange....

 

Take my earlier example where you have regen 3 Body, rPD 3. If you get shot by a guy with an uzi (call it 1d6 killing per shot, AF 5, just off the top of my head) you get to apply the armor to each shot. He hits you 4 times and gets some crummy damage rolls of 3, 2, 4, 2. Your "special effect" eliminates all but 1 point of damage instead of only eliminating the first shot and then being overwhelmed. Take the flip side where he rolls 6, 5, 5, 5 and you wind up "regenerating" 12 points of body this segment, but only 3 each for the next three segments. Numerically this is not appealing to me, but it is certainly and easier and cheaper build which maintains the feel of regenration as defenses.

 

In the end, it seems as though the only solution to the numerical matching is going to be a GM-approved limitation combined with other limitations like ablative defenses and is still probably not worth it simply to make me happy with the numbers. (I'll confess that I was hoping for a cleaner build for it although I didn't really expect it.)

[SteveZilla]

Re: Help with Power: Regen as Armor

 

Take my earlier example where you have regen 3 Body' date=' rPD 3. If you get shot by a guy with an Uzi (call it 1d6 killing per shot, AF 5, just off the top of my head) you get to apply the armor to each shot. He hits you 4 times and gets some crummy damage rolls of 3, 2, 4, 2. Your "special effect" eliminates all but 1 point of damage instead of only eliminating the first shot and then being overwhelmed.[/quote']

 

Even though the damage is from the same attack, it is not from the same hit. A 1d6 RKA Autofire that hits for 4 shots is not the same thing as a single 4d6 RKA shot.

 

Take the flip side where he rolls 6' date=' 5, 5, 5 and you wind up "regenerating" 12 points of body this segment, but only 3 each for the next three segments. Numerically this is not appealing to me, but it is certainly and easier and cheaper build which maintains the feel of regeneration as defenses.[/quote']

 

Then apply a Limitation to the defense like "Only Stops DEF Points Of BODY Damage Each Phase". The value of it depends greatly upon the level of the defense, the DCV of the character, and the average BODY done in attacks against him. Personally, I wouldn't do it because it becomes much more likely (IMO) that the character would spend more time face down than fighting.

 

In the end' date=' it seems as though the only solution to the numerical matching is going to be a GM-approved limitation combined with other limitations like ablative defenses and is still probably not worth it simply to make me happy with the numbers. (I'll confess that I was hoping for a cleaner build for it although I didn't really expect it.)[/quote']

 

IMO not all concepts/constructions are "commonly doable" in Hero System, primarily because they are either Overly Complicated, or Hideously Expensive (or both).