Triggered Recovery?

[mmshah]

Would the following be legal and if not, can you help adapt it to be legal.

 

Trigger Naked Advantage for upto 10 REC (+3/4) (Trigger condition: when at or below 0 STUN, activating trigger takes no time, trigger resets automatically, character does not control activation of personal trigger) (Reduced End 0, +1/2, Persistent +1/2 applied to the NAKED Advantage) 30 Active, 30 Real Cost

 

What Im thinking is that when dropped to 0 or below Stun, the trigger condition activates and you get to take a recovery as an action that takes no time.

 

Now since you can normally take recoveries while at or below 0 Stun Im thinking Persistent is unnecessary for REC, but since the Naked Advantage isnt normally persistant the trigger wouldnt normally reset even thou it resets automatically, hence the reason for Persistent on it (provided you are still at or below 0 Stun).

 

Now the way I read the trigger advantage even if your trigger resets automatically it still cant reset more then once per Phase. Which would limit powers from being able to function more often then once per second and is very necessary to have any type of balance.

 

Thus you are left with a power that lets you REC, 10 Stun and 10 End every Phase that you are at or below 0 Stun for 30 CP.

 

You are still taking a recovery thou so technically youd be at lower DCV and not be able to take any other actions, thou personally Id think Id drop that part since you arent taking a Full Phase action to do it.

 

To clarify what I wanted to describe was not +10 Rec with the trigger advantage, but rather a naked trigger to take recovery action and since naked advantages need to function on something it seemed like the Rec stat was the appropriate thing for a recovery action.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

You would get the extra points of REC but actual recoveries only happen post phase 12 or as an action. Aid or Succor (END and STUN) would be a more appropriate focus of the Trigger for the effect you want.

[pinecone]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Yeah, that does not give a "Recovery" it just makes your Rec higher....talk with the Ref...maybe you can buy +1 Speed, Only to take a Recovery...though I Seriously don't like that build...

 

 

I'd suggest +X Stun, trigger, it might wake you up, and will make Recoverys come more often if you're way down...?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Legal but pointless - it doesn't even increase your REC, it is just a naked trigger for something that....oh hang, on, I think I get it!

 

At very negative STUN levels, REC takes a lot longer than once per turn, and anticipate this is a way around that. If I'm right I still doin't think it works - REC is always there and always on, and all a trigegr does is switch something on - which REC does not need.

[mmshah]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

I guess I dont understand the trigger advantage, I thought that you could use trigger to take an action that you would normally not be able to take at the current time. What I wanted to do was to use a trigger to forcibly take a recovery action, instead of having to wait until I could do it normally and also by using the no time part of trigger to have to happen automatically. Would there be another way of doing something like that?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

The clearer way would be:

 

+10 END, Trigger (when at 0STUN or less; resets automatically as a 0Phase action)

 

It may not make you conscious, but it could move you up the REC Time Chart a notch. It may or may not qualify for a Limitation that are the Trigger conditions. . .

 

Your build, if I read it right, will force a REC to be taken, giving you back STUN and END. After all, you are right Trigger is used to cause an event to happen without the Characters need to declare or taken an action.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

This character has something along the same conceptual lines:

 

Agent X

 

See his "Adrenal Boost" power.

 

 

For that matter, this character has something similar (though much less powerful) as well:

 

Major Savage

 

See his "Bio-monitor" gear.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

The clearer way would be:

 

+10 END, Trigger (when at 0STUN or less; resets automatically as a 0Phase action)

 

It may not make you conscious, but it could move you up the REC Time Chart a notch. It may or may not qualify for a Limitation that are the Trigger conditions. . .

 

Your build, if I read it right, will force a REC to be taken, giving you back STUN and END. After all, you are right Trigger is used to cause an event to happen without the Characters need to declare or taken an action.

 

I can see the logic of defining this as a recovery that you take when unconscious, without having to wait until PS12, but I don't hink it works that way in practice. Trigger does not cause an event to happen when the trigger event occurs, it activates a power when the trigger event occurs. REC, if we consider it a power, and we shall for the purposes of this discussion, is already activated - switching it 'on' again will not change that, any more than activating a power with 1 turn of extra time would make it go off before that extra turn passes.

 

(and I think you meant +10 STUN, which I might build with a limtiation, rather than a trigger: not sueable whilst conscious -1/2)

[braincraft]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

There's generally no point to using Trigger on characteristics or any other power that's on all the time or almost all the time (just use a conditional disadvantage), and there's absolutely no point to buying STUN that only works if you go below 0 STUN (that works exactly the same as if you'd just bought more STUN).

 

If you want an effect that lets you regain consciousness when you're knocked unconscious, buy a Triggered STUN Aid. I've used that construct before; it was a 'Second Wind' power on a tough martial artist character. You might want to limit it in some way, because unlimited free STUN when your STUN gets low is pretty boring; you might as well have just bought more STUN, or Damage Reduction or something of the sort.

 

If you just want to regain consciousness faster instead of actually waking back up immediately, try limited characteristics, like +10 STUN (only to improve category for Recovery frequency when below 0 STUN, -2). You might also try something like Damage Reduction (Only for damage below 0 STUN, -2), but that would get expensive quick.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Switch out Healing for REC and it'll work. Using Aid instead will boost the STUN up, but fade rate applies.

[mmshah]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

So I guess the confusion on my part is that Im not viewing REC the stat properly. I was thinking that its like a power thats used when you take a recovery, but I guess I shouldnt think of it like that.

 

The problem with using a flat +10 Stun with conditions is that it only applies once, and as people have pointed out then you might as well just buy the 10 Stun outright.

 

Another problem arises when trying to use Aid or Healing, I already use Adjustment Powers to bump up my Stun, Rec, Body, End and this would then run into Max Effect issues.

 

So I think Im left with Succor to avoid maximum effect issues, something like the following:

 

Succor 1d6 to Stun (Red End 0 +1/2, Persistent +1/2, Trigger +3/4 (Trigger condition: when at or below 0 STUN, activating trigger takes no time, trigger resets automatically, character does not control activation of personal trigger), Self Only -1/2, Only Restore to Starting Values -1/2)

 

I guess you could add some form of No Concious Control or Conditional Power limitation since the character cant use it normally.

 

There would also need to be some stop condition also since its a 0 End Succor. I know people like to avoid this but it seems required since Persistent requires 0 End and without Persistent, the Succor would turn off immediately and you would lose the Stun unless that 1d6 brought you above 0 Stun.

 

But it would add 1d6 Stun every Phase that you are at or below 0 Stun.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

I can see the logic of defining this as a recovery that you take when unconscious, without having to wait until PS12, but I don't hink it works that way in practice. Trigger does not cause an event to happen when the trigger event occurs, it activates a power when the trigger event occurs. REC, if we consider it a power, and we shall for the purposes of this discussion, is already activated - switching it 'on' again will not change that, any more than activating a power with 1 turn of extra time would make it go off before that extra turn passes.

 

(and I think you meant +10 STUN, which I might build with a limtiation, rather than a trigger: not sueable whilst conscious -1/2)

 

I meant both +10 STUN and END. no point in waking up if you can't do anything. (remember, END drops to 0 when you hit 0 STUN). And thinking about it - yeah a Limitation "Only to Determine Consciousness" works better.

 

For the record - I think you're right, but something in me is saying otherwise and I have no reason why you'd be wrong. I think I'll wander on over and ask Steve his take on it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

I say it's a perfectly fine build. Trigger causes the power to activate when the condition is met. So up to 10 your REC is "activated" giving you back up to 10 STUN and END.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

I say it's a perfectly fine build. Trigger causes the power to activate when the condition is met. So up to 10 your REC is "activated" giving you back up to 10 STUN and END.

 

I figured out what was bugging me - you hit it.

 

Recovery only activates when you use it.

 

The Phase 12 bit is simply System Level effect to give some balance and prevent combats from becoming even more prolonged by people pausing to recover all the time.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

That's a good point - this would, effectively, let you take additonal recoveries when you are unconscious.

 

It may be legal but I'm not sure I like it. I'd certainly reqire all the normal injunctions on taking recoveries as actions to apply, and would probably also rule that an unconscious character has a maximum speed of 1.

 

Braincraft said there is no point in +STUN (only when unconscious). There is - if you fall unconscious, you take the effects of that, including zeroing your END etc, and THEN the stun kicks in - that would not have happened if you had had it all along. I DO like the suggestion about +10 STUN only to improve recovery category though - very inventive!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

My this one has me thinking.

 

 

I suppose it comes down to this:

 

When you take a recovery (i.e. you decide to recover END and STUN as an action in your phase, rather than letting nature take its course) are you:

 

1. 'Voulntarily' activating your REC (we'll call it REC to distinguish it from the action of taking a recovery)

 

or

 

2. Creating the conditions in which your REC, which is always 'on' can work more frequently?

 

If it is 1, then triggered REC should work as the original post intended. If it is 2. then I don't think it would - you can't trigger yourself to take an action other than activating a power.

 

Anyway, interesting question....

[braincraft]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

REC is not an action. Trigger allows an action to occur. QED.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

REC is not an action. Trigger allows an action to occur. QED.

 

Agreed, REC is not not an action, a Recovery is though, and I suppsoe it comes down to what triggering REC actually accomplishes.

 

Trigger allows a power to activate without an action on the part of the character, it does not allow the character to take an action they could not otherwise do (other than activating a power).

 

It's all so confusing....brain melting....

[archermoo]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Agreed, REC is not not an action, a Recovery is though, and I suppsoe it comes down to what triggering REC actually accomplishes.

 

Trigger allows a power to activate without an action on the part of the character, it does not allow the character to take an action they could not otherwise do (other than activating a power).

 

It's all so confusing....brain melting....

 

No worries. Steve has come to the rescue in his reply to g-a's question. Trigger cannot be used to get extra recoveries.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Indeed he has and has confirmed Sean's initial assumption, which makes sense to me.

 

And - could someone give Steve some Thank You Rep, apparently I've Repped him too recently to do so. TIA.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Well, I won't be repping him. I think he made the wrong call.

 

EB activates whn you use it.

Recovery activates when you use it.

 

Trigger can cause an EB to activate when a specified condition occurs.

Why can't Trigger cause Recovery to activate when a specified condition occurs?

 

It may not be the best way to buy this ability, but it seems like a perfectly valid one to me. I don't see the harm in allowing more than one way to build something in HERO. In fact it's a good thing!

 

I leave it to that other system to constantly repeat the mantra of "No, you can't do that."

HERO is supposed to say, "Yes, you can do anything, as long as you pay for it."

[ghost-angel]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Well, I won't be repping him. I think he made the wrong call.

 

EB activates whn you use it.

Recovery activates when you use it.

 

Trigger can cause an EB to activate when a specified condition occurs.

Why can't Trigger cause Recovery to activate when a specified condition occurs?

 

It may not be the best way to buy this ability, but it seems like a perfectly valid one to me. I don't see the harm in allowing more than one way to build something in HERO. In fact it's a good thing!

 

I leave it to that other system to constantly repeat the mantra of "No, you can't do that."

HERO is supposed to say, "Yes, you can do anything, as long as you pay for it."

 

Well yeah - Chapter 7 - Changing The System.

 

Steve isn't the be-all-end-all. He's just the default position for the rules.

[braincraft]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Well, I won't be repping him. I think he made the wrong call.

 

EB activates whn you use it.

Recovery activates when you use it.

 

Trigger can cause an EB to activate when a specified condition occurs.

Why can't Trigger cause Recovery to activate when a specified condition occurs?

 

It may not be the best way to buy this ability, but it seems like a perfectly valid one to me. I don't see the harm in allowing more than one way to build something in HERO. In fact it's a good thing!

 

I leave it to that other system to constantly repeat the mantra of "No, you can't do that."

HERO is supposed to say, "Yes, you can do anything, as long as you pay for it."

 

REC (the characteristic) /= Recovery (the action)

 

You can create the effect you're aiming at; in fact, it's not hard using the existing rules. A number of viable options have been put forth by myself and others.

 

Don't complain that you can't create the effect with a specific application of the rules. I'll note that you can't bake a cake with Mind Scan, either; but the rules provide for both scanning minds and baking cakes.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

REC (the characteristic) /= Recovery (the action)

EB (the power) /= Energy Blast (the action)

 

You can create the effect you're aiming at; in fact, it's not hard using the existing rules. A number of viable options have been put forth by myself and others.

And I never said otherwise. I just think this is one more viable option.

 

Don't complain that you can't create the effect with a specific application of the rules. I'll note that you can't bake a cake with Mind Scan, either; but the rules provide for both scanning minds and baking cakes.

That isn't anything close to what I was saying.

[schir1964]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

EB (the power) /= Energy Blast (the action).

Question:

Can you activate (Turn On) an Energy Blast Power without ending your turn (Attack Action)?

 

Can you activate (Turn On) a REC Stat Power without taking time (1/2 Phase Action)?

 

Hmmm...

 

- Christopher Mullins