Triggered Recovery?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

That interpretation seems contrary to the meaning of the word as it is used by HERO games.

Please don't quote the dictionary at me. It's insulting. I know what Errata means regardless of what Steve or anyone at HERO thinks it means.

 

Although I can't find it listed on the current board (probably due to the recent updates by Simon) it has been stated by Steve in the past that the posted errata only deals with typographical errors.

If that is the case, then he is wrong again, because in fact the Errata contains many types of errors other than typographical.

 

Rules related clarifications are instead handled by the FAQ and Rules Forum. These clarifications do not mean that the original rule they relate to is either in error or in need of correction.

Correct. However, in some cases, the FAQ or Rules Forum rulings *do* in fact contradict the printed rules. Therefore, I have no choice but to give these sources less credibility.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Trigger does one thing and one thing only. It turns a power from Off to On. Characteristics (unless Limited otherwise) are' date=' by their very nature, Always On. How do I know this? Common sense.[/quote']

Fascinating. Common sense tells me the exact opposite. STR isn't Always On (for one, it would have to be 0 END first). DEX isn't Always On - if you're sleeping or unconscious or stunned, etc. you lose your DCV. REC isn't always on - You only get recoveries in addition to the post-12, when you take a phase to do so.

 

How would one go about 'turning off' their EGO?

You voluntarily lower your EGO when you specifically want to be affected by a Mental Power. It's right there in the rules.

 

There are some Characteristics that you can use at less than full effect, naturally.

Well then they aren't Always On, are they?

 

Yes, I've read some of the posts that talk about +20 CON, Triggered to allow a character to avoid being Stunned.

I don't know who wrote such a thing, but it certainly wasn't me! You are correct that such a construct makes no sense.

 

Since Characteristics are Always On, Triggering them does nothing. They are already turned on, and turning them on again does not do anything.

So you don't allow characters to take a recovery phase in your games? Do you let them do things with their STR? Pick things up? Make HtH attacks? Do you let them make Presence Attacks? These are all examples of "turning on" a characteristic.

 

Hmm? You deny that Characteristics are Always On? SWEEEET. I'm gonna save a buttload of points by purchasing Always On for each and every single one of my Characteristics.

Assuming I let you (which I wouldn't), that means you'll have to buy your STR to 0 END and Persistant. I hope you never need surgery, because the doctor is going to have to operate on you at your full DCV - even while you're under sedation, your body keeps moving around. You'll probably have a very hard time getting to sleep, but you can always buy some Life Support so you don't need to. Oh, and you'll really annoy the crap out of everyone you meet because you'll be PRE Attacking everyone around you all the time.

 

I'll probably also purchase Self Only for my Growth, Stretching and Running. Yes, I'm being smarmy (everyone needs a hobby, after all),

My hobby is playing HERO. Your smarminess does not help this conversation.

 

but my point is that simply because something is not explicitly stated in the rulebook (or Errata, FAQ or Rules Forum) does not mean that it is implicitly allowed.

Well, if that's the point you're trying to make, you've failed. The "examples" you've given *are* specifically not allowed in the rulebook. Remember this rule: "A Limitation that doesn't Limit isn't worth points"?

 

And in fact, I'd say that where something isn't explicitly stated as not allowed in the rulebook, then it *is* allowed, as has been tradition in HERO since first edition. Leave it to that other game system (I like to call it B&D because of its arbitrary restrictiveness) for that attitude. HERO has always allowed creative builds and uses of its elements and rules.

 

How often has Steve typed the words "dramatic license and common sense?" Common Sense tells us that the Trigger Advantage has no effect when applied to Characteristics.

Well your common sense is aparently different from mine. In fact, it seems yours is also at odds with published examples.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Yes' date=' we all know that already. Notice that only one of those uses is an actual action on the part of the character.[/quote']

 

Actually, I would suggest that "taking a recovery" is not an action on the part of the character. Rather, it is explicitly NOT taking an action for a period of time. Can a character take an action when he is knocked out? I would answer "NO". But a character knocked out, at -28 STUN, gets a recovery every minute. How can he "take a recovery action" if he is not permitted to take any actions?

 

I would suggest the Recovery statistic is better viewed as governing how quickly the character regains lost STUN, END and BOD at time intervals governed by other factors.

 

"Taking a recovery" is either not an action, but rather the passing of an interval of time without taking any action, or taking any damage. When a phase passes with me taking no actions, etc., I recover Stun and END. When I pass PS 12, I recover Stun and END. When a month passes, I recover BOD equal to my REC (or, alternatively, when 30/REC days pass, I recover 1 BOD).

 

Arkelos the Mage wants to protect his sanctum sanctorum from intrusion while he's away' date=' so he puts up a Mind Control with a Trigger on the front door. Whenever anyone touches the door without saying, "I'm home," they are mind controlled into walking away and forgetting their intention to enter Arkelos's home. Perfectly fair, reasonable, and legal use of Trigger, right? Well, Mind Control, being a Mental Power grants its owner Mental Awareness, but that doesn't mean the Triggered Mind Control imparts some awareness to the door, or that Arkelos becomes aware of mental powers used in the vicinity of his door (even while the Trigger goes off) while he is miles away.[/quote']

 

Hopefully, Arkelos remembered to make his Mind Control telepathic so the target gets the command

 

To differentiate this from the Recovery, above, Mind Control is an action one takes. A recovery is the result of taking no action for a period of time. A character cannot consciously decide to take a recovery when sleeping or unconscious, and yet he does recover.

 

If I am permitted to "Trigger" a recovery, why am I not also permitted to Trigger a haymaker. I will pay +1/4 on my 12d6 Eneregy Blast to have it Haymaker whenever I say "It's Clobberin' Time". Since this is Triggered, it should take place immediately, just like that Triggered Recovery will take place immediately. Arkelos could probably use that extra 4d6 on his spell as well.

 

Trigger only causes a discrete action to happen' date=' such as firing an EB, or taking a Recovery. It does not cause a continuous non-action to happen, such as being mentally aware, or continually gaining back STUN or END as part of the body's continuous natural processes.[/quote']

 

Gaining back STUN and END by taking a recovery is part of the body's continuous natural processes. By doing nothing for a phase, the character enables the body's continuous natural processes to more rapidly recover from exhaustion and shock.

 

The recovery of BODY equal to REC every month' date=' like the recovery of STUN and END every turn, is not a discrete action, like an actual Recovery action.[/quote']

 

I'm with you right up until you suggest there is a "recovery action".

 

It's just a compromise necessary because it's a game where we use discrete units of time to govern continuous processes' date=' like a body's natural ability to repair and restore itself. The gains at the end of each turn or the end of each month is not a sudden >PING!< and you regain some STUN and END every twelve seconds that you can set your watch by, or >PING!< and you suddenly regain some amount of BODY as the clock strikes midnight on the last day of the month. This is not like passing Go in Monopoly.[/quote']

 

Nor is the waiting of a full phase, at which time **PING**, your STUN and END rise by the amount of your recovery. We shorthand "do nothing and allow my body to rest and recuperate" as "take a recovery action".

 

I don't see it as any more reasonable to be able to Trigger the results of a phase of rest than to be able to trigger the results of a month of rest, or a week of bed rest in a hospital. All recoveries, mechanically, are the result of a combination of a certain period of time passing and certain criteria being met during that period of time. Post segment 12 requires a turn to pass, and that the character not be below -9 STUN. A normal recovery requires that a full phase pass, during which time the character takes no action, uses no END using power (even a 0 END power) and takes no STUN. The REC stat merely governs what happens when that period of time passes.

 

It does not create the conditions permitting STUN, END or BOD to be recovered - it merely sets the magnitude of STUN, END or BOD which is recovered when those conditions are met. You can't Trigger the conditions, only the stat.

[schir1964]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

....A normal recovery requires that a full phase pass, during which time the character takes no action, uses no END using power (even a 0 END power) and takes no STUN. The REC stat merely governs what happens when that period of time passes.

 

It does not create the conditions permitting STUN, END or BOD to be recovered - it merely sets the magnitude of STUN, END or BOD which is recovered when those conditions are met. You can't Trigger the conditions, only the stat.

Finally. You have expressed in detail with no room for interpretation or ambiguity the difference between the REC Characteristic and the "taking a recovery" process. Repped.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Actually, I would suggest that "taking a recovery" is not an action on the part of the character. ....

 

"Taking a recovery" is either not an action, ....

 

I'm with you right up until you suggest there is a "recovery action".

"Taking a Recovery" is listed right there on the Action Table. And in the Recovery section, the book specifically talks about using an Action to Take a Recovery.

 

If I am permitted to "Trigger" a recovery, why am I not also permitted to Trigger a haymaker.

Because Haymaker is not a contruct that can be purchased. We're going in circles now, back to what schir1964 was misunderstanding earlier. Trigger *causes* an "action" to happen, but you buy it on the power or characteristic that grants you the ability to take that action. You could buy something akin to a Triggered Haymaker if you want, just buy +4 DC for the power you want to Haymaker with and apply a Trigger to that. Or you could buy the whole power plus the additional DCs with the Trigger and have the whole thing go off as a triggered action.

 

I don't see it as any more reasonable to be able to Trigger the results of a phase of rest than to be able to trigger the results of a month of rest, or a week of bed rest in a hospital.

So you wouldn't let characters have Trigger on Healing either?

 

You can't Trigger the conditions, only the stat.

I'm not claiming to Trigger any conditions, only the results of using the power (or characteristic in this case). Using a power (such as EB) also carries conditions (such as "doing nothing else" for a half phase, and ending your phase) which are obviated by the use of the Trigger.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

"Taking a Recovery" is listed right there on the Action Table. And in the Recovery section' date=' the book specifically talks about using an Action to Take a Recovery.[/quote']

 

I view this as shorthand, and a convenient place to remind players that they have the option of taking no action, and instead recovering. "Taking a recovery" is not an ordinary action in any sense. No (other) action requires you to commit as soon as your phase comes up, and then remains voidable until your next phase comes up. No (other) action can be taken while you are knocked out.

 

Because Haymaker is not a construct that can be purchased. We're going in circles now

 

Yes, we are. A Haymaker is also listed as "an action". Specifically, it is an attack action. If I can trigger "an action", why can that action not be Triggered as a Haymaker, rather than being triggered as a Strike? Simply put, because Trigger does not enable the affected power to activate despite the fact the preconditions for it to activate are not met, it only obviates the need to activate the power in the ordinary course. Recovery is not activated. It simply dictates the amount of damage recovered if and when the conditions for recovering are met (be that spending an entire phase "taking a recovery", being knocked out for a certain period of time, PS 12 or, for BOD, passage of a month's time). The characteristic itself is purely passive.

 

Trigger *causes* an "action" to happen' date=' but you buy it on the power or characteristic that grants you the ability to take that action. You could buy something akin to a Triggered Haymaker if you want, just buy +4 DC for the power you want to Haymaker with and apply a Trigger to that. Or you could buy the whole power plus the additional DCs with the Trigger and have the whole thing go off as a triggered action.[/quote']

 

Why can't the Trigger cause the Action of a Haymaker to happen? How is the Action "Haymaker my Energy Blast" more different from "Strike with my Energy Blast" than "Trigger my Recovery to act as if it's PS 12" is?

 

So you wouldn't let characters have Trigger on Healing either?

 

Healing is not like recovery. It is activated and targeted like any attack power. It does not sit passively and grant benefits over the passage of time, provided other criteria are met. A closer analogy might be Regeneration - would you permit Regeneration to trigger "when I am down BOD; self-resetting" such that I recover my Regen every phase, rather than only in PS 12?

 

I'm not claiming to Trigger any conditions' date=' only the results of using the power (or characteristic in this case). Using a power (such as EB) also carries conditions (such as "doing nothing else" for a half phase, and ending your phase) which are obviated by the use of the Trigger.[/quote']

 

Again, REC is not like an EB. Taking a recovery is not like any other action. If it is like any other action, please provide me with the reference to this "other action" which can never be taken with a held action and is disrupted in the event the character takes damage at any time from the start of the phase the action commences to the start of the next phase.

 

Trigger is applicable only to abilities that "switch on" and "switch off". Characteristics, in the main, do not "switch on" or "switch off". They are always there in the background. Triggering your recovery to simulate the passage of time makes no more sense than Triggering your CON "when I am hit" to boost your CON so you won't be stunned, or Triggering your INT "when I need to make an INT roll". Your CON, INT and REC are characteristics that are always "on", waiting for something to do (resist an illness or injury; figure out a problem; recuperate you from your injuries) when the criteria for them to do something rolls around. They do not get used in an action, in and of themselves. They govern how certain actions are resolved.

[archermoo]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

No (other) action requires you to commit as soon as your phase comes up' date=' and then remains voidable until your next phase comes up. No (other) action can be taken while you are knocked out.[/quote']

 

As a note, under the current rules the Recovery is only voidable until the end of the Segment you declared it in (at which point you get your Stun and END back), rather than until the end of your Phase. This is actually a case where having a low Dex is an advantage, as you cannot use a Held Action to Recover, and you CAN Recover if you take damage BEFORE you declare your Recovery in a segment. Just not after.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

As a note' date=' under the current rules the Recovery is only voidable until the end of the Segment you declared it in (at which point you get your Stun and END back), rather than until the end of your Phase. This is actually a case where having a low Dex is an advantage, as you cannot use a Held Action to Recover, and you CAN Recover if you take damage BEFORE you declare your Recovery in a segment. Just not after.[/quote']

 

Wall Beef Hocked!

 

That IS what 5er p 424 says!

 

Thanks, Archermoo

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Are we still talking about this? Triggering REC does not make you recover faster.

 

Guys: move on!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Are we still talking about this? Triggering REC does not make you recover faster.

 

Guys: move on!

 

I have.

[Rapier]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

It's kind of like a traffic accident. I can't help myself.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

I view this as shorthand' date='[/quote']

Well, I don't. I view it as the rules.

 

"Taking a recovery" is not an ordinary action in any sense. No (other) action requires you to commit as soon as your phase comes up, and then remains voidable until your next phase comes up.

So what? All actions are different from each other in some ways. That's why they're listed as different actions on the action table. Each has its own rules.

 

If I can trigger "an action", why can that action not be Triggered as a Haymaker, rather than being triggered as a Strike?

It theoretically could, but you'd have to buy it to do that, and most likely, you wouldn't use the Trigger rules to build such a thing. I don't know how many more ways I can say this, but I'll try once more: Trigger is purchased on a power (on in this case, a characteristic), to enable the action of that power. You don't get to do anything else. In the Mind Control example, you don't get to change the command when the MC goes off - you have to set it what you set the Trigger.

 

Simply put, because Trigger does not enable the affected power to activate despite the fact the preconditions for it to activate are not met, it only obviates the need to activate the power in the ordinary course.

Yes it does! That's the whole point of Trigger. A Triggered attack power doesn't use an attack action (half-phase, ends the phase) when it goes off.

 

The characteristic itself is purely passive.

No it isn't. You can actively decide to take a recovery. Right out of the rulebook.

 

Why can't the Trigger cause the Action of a Haymaker to happen? How is the Action "Haymaker my Energy Blast" more different from "Strike with my Energy Blast" than "Trigger my Recovery to act as if it's PS 12" is?

More different than what? You don't buy Trigger on an Action, you buy it on a power (or characteristic). And as I've said before, I have never advocated Triggering a Post-12 recovery - that I agree is not an action. What is being Triggered is the Action of recovery - what a character would normally declare and use his phase to do.

 

Healing is not like recovery.

It is in the way you described: "I don't see it as any more reasonable to be able to Trigger the results of a phase of rest than to be able to trigger the results of a month of rest, or a week of bed rest in a hospital." Isn't Healing just like the results of a (usually somewhat long) period of rest/hospital care? That is a prime reason for allowing Triggered recovery - because that's what we pay for in this system - results, game-mechanical results. Not SFX, not the underlying explanation of how the power works, but the results - the actual game effects.

 

A closer analogy might be Regeneration - would you permit Regeneration to trigger "when I am down BOD; self-resetting" such that I recover my Regen every phase, rather than only in PS 12?

What would the Trigger mean in this case? Regeneration already only works when you're down BODY. I forget off hand how much the automatically-resetting-every-phase Trigger costs, but in this case, I'd probably charge just as much as I would for the extra dice of Regen, such that the total amount per turn is the same, e.g., with a 4 SPD, 4d6 Regen is the same as 1d6 of Regen-triggered-every-phase.

 

Again, REC is not like an EB. Taking a recovery is not like any other action.

They're both actions according to the action table. They both have their rules regarding time required and effects.

 

If it is like any other action, please provide me with the reference to this "other action" which can never be taken with a held action and is disrupted in the event the character takes damage at any time from the start of the phase the action commences to the start of the next phase.

As I said before, all actions are different from each other. A Full-Move action is not like a Dodge. A HtH Strike is not like a Set. An RKA is not like an Entangle. Telepathy is not like a Drain. etc.

Please provide me with some *reason* why the particular differences of the Recovery Action should preclude it from being Triggered. And remember, "because Steve Long said so" is not a reason.

 

Trigger is applicable only to abilities that "switch on" and "switch off". Characteristics, in the main, do not "switch on" or "switch off".

Some of them do: STR, DEX, PRE, REC, and even all the other primary characteristics when you make a charatceristic roll.

 

Triggering your recovery to simulate the passage of time makes no more sense than Triggering your CON "when I am hit" to boost your CON so you won't be stunned, or Triggering your INT "when I need to make an INT roll".

Is it the passage of time that is bugging you? That's a well-established use of Trigger. You could have Triggered Teleport to simulate the passage of time: I moved from here to there as if time has passed imperceptibly to those around me.

 

Triggering CON and INT in the way you suggest indeed makes no sense because it would cost more and do less than just buying the characteristics. For CON "Only so I woun't be Stunned" is a *Limitation* not an Advantage. I hope you understand that I am talking about an Advantage on REC and that I am acknowledging that one must pay extra for it. I'm not advocating getting anything this useful for free.

 

Your CON, INT and REC are characteristics that are always "on", waiting for something to do (resist an illness or injury; figure out a problem; recuperate you from your injuries) when the criteria for them to do something rolls around. They do not get used in an action, in and of themselves. They govern how certain actions are resolved.

That's pretty much true in the case of CON and INT (except when a character intentionally decides to make an INT roll with a Skill or something like that), but it's not true for REC - a character can specifically decide to use his REC to take a recovery action, regardless of whether you want to call it an action or not.

[pinecone]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Are we still talking about this? Triggering REC does not make you recover faster.

 

Guys: move on!

 

Wait! This looks interesting! I must investigate more...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

No it isn't. You can actively decide to take a recovery. Right out of the rulebook.

 

An option for using your phase is to actively decide to rest/catch your breath (take a recovery). You could also actively decide to take a nap.

 

It is in the way you described: "I don't see it as any more reasonable to be able to Trigger the results of a phase of rest than to be able to trigger the results of a month of rest' date=' or a week of bed rest in a hospital." Isn't Healing just like the results of a (usually somewhat long) period of rest/hospital care? That is a prime reason for allowing Triggered recovery - because that's what we pay for in this system - results, game-mechanical results. Not SFX, not the underlying explanation of how the power works, but the results - the actual game effects.[/quote']

 

A month of rest or a week of bed rest recovers your REC in BOD. You don't allow that to be Triggered. Healing is a separate power that regains lost BOD faster. You could also have Healing on STUN.

 

We simply disagree as to whether Trigger on REC grants a recovery, or simply grants you REC which operates under the normal rules for REC. Many others have voiced there opinions here. The author of the rules has voiced his in the rules forum. Phil, if a new revision said "Triggered REC does not grant a recovery", wold you somehow be more accepting of it? It would still be one rules interpretation, subject to GM override.

 

The rules do not say "Triggered Recovery grants you an immediate recovery", nor do they say it does not. If either were present, the rules question would say "See 5er p xxx".

 

What would the Trigger mean in this case? Regeneration already only works when you're down BODY. I forget off hand how much the automatically-resetting-every-phase Trigger costs' date=' but in this case, I'd probably charge just as much as I would for the extra dice of Regen, such that the total amount per turn is the same, e.g., with a 4 SPD, 4d6 Regen is the same as 1d6 of Regen-triggered-every-phase.[/quote']

 

Trigger would mean that, each time the trigger resets, the character gets to regenerate. So we buy Healing 1d6 Regeneration, 0 END (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), Trigger (+1/4 - when down BOD), trigger action takes no time (+1/4), trigger resets automatically (+1/2) 30 AP, Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time 1 week (-2 1/2). RP 7

 

I take a week and set my trigger. It's self-resetting now, so I take 5 BOD - I'm down BOD, so the Trigger goes off. I get a BOD back; trigger resets. Still down BOD so the trigger goes off. I get 1 BOD back; it resets. After 5 iterations, I'm fully healed and the Trigger is dormant until I take BOD again.

 

Stupid result, but consistent with your views on Trigger.

 

They're both actions according to the action table. They both have their rules regarding time required and effects.

 

Also on the action table [5er p 363] are Brace, Set and Haymaker. Why can't my Triggered EB be Braced, Set and Haymakered, if actions can be triggered?

 

Also on the table are acceleration, changing clothes, getting to one's feet, recovering from being Stunned, shifting a multipower, shifting skill levels, speaking and using casual STR. Can I apply Trigger (with no new abilities - these are things anyone can do without any unusual abilities) to take these actions? If so, how? If not, taking a recovery is not singled out for special treatment as an action which cannot be Triggered.

 

Powers are triggered. Maneuvers and actions are not triggered. REC with a limitation is a power. Taking a recovery is an action (specifically, an action of taking no action). The former can be triggered. The latter cannot.

 

Allowing Trigger on REC to not only add REC under certain circumstances, but also to Trigger the "Taking a Recovery" action, you make that action an exception, as most actions CANNOT be triggered.

 

BTW, where does it say I must set a Mind Control command when I set the trigger? Depending on the nature of the Trigger, I may be able to pick the target of my attack. Why could I not pick the Mind Control command or Mental Illusion to be delivered in the same way? Mind Control requires the target hear and understand the command. Triggered Mind Control without a spoken command (or a relevant advantage) is useless.

 

The description of Trigger also notes that my Triggered power may take OCV penalties when it goes off if I can't see where it went off (again, depending on the nature of the power using the trigger).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Ultimately, if Trigger works on REC, I would be inclined to buy Trigger on my REC with the dual Triggers "I take STUN" and "I use a power or ability that costs END". It would be an automatic action that takes no time, and self-resetting.

 

With two triggering events, that's a +1 1/4 advantage. 10 REC costs 20 points. Also recovering 10 STUN and END every time I take STUN and every time I use END sounds like a pretty good deal for 25 points. I certainly won't be wasting points on reduced END again!

[mmshah]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

 

Trigger would mean that, each time the trigger resets, the character gets to regenerate. So we buy Healing 1d6 Regeneration, 0 END (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), Trigger (+1/4 - when down BOD), trigger action takes no time (+1/4), trigger resets automatically (+1/2) 30 AP, Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time 1 week (-2 1/2). RP 7

 

I take a week and set my trigger. It's self-resetting now, so I take 5 BOD - I'm down BOD, so the Trigger goes off. I get a BOD back; trigger resets. Still down BOD so the trigger goes off. I get 1 BOPD back; it resets. After 5 iterations, I'm fully healed and the Trigger is dormant until I take BOD again.

 

Stupid result, but consistent with your views on Trigger.

 

Actually Im pretty sure thats legal check out Hyper-Man's post from:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58836

 

The power "He Heals Quick" is virtually identical, there is one thing that you didnt note thou, its that Healing has a Max Effect in your example that is 6 Char Points (3 Body) per Week. Even using normal Healing rules not the per hit healing rules it still works as you described thou only to 3 Body Max.

 

 

The more important example thou is the "I use a power or ability that costs END" example of Triggered Rec that you brought up. As we will both agree such a power should never be allowed, but the question is why. Is it that in this particular case due to the effect of the power, the GM should rule that this is an abusive use of Trigger and disallow it? Or is that because of such an example Trigger should not be allowed on REC in any case? Clearly you have to come down one way or the other its just a matter of which way is preferable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Actually Im pretty sure thats legal check out Hyper-Man's post from:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58836

 

The power "He Heals Quick" is virtually identical, there is one thing that you didnt note thou, its that Healing has a Max Effect in your example that is 6 Char Points (3 Body) per Week. Even using normal Healing rules not the per hit healing rules it still works as you described thou only to 3 Body Max.

 

Regeneration bypasses that limit (and it's usually a daily limit by default, not a weekly limit) at the cost of having a standard effect of 2 per 1d6, rather than 3 per 1d6. As noted in my post, I'm assuming that this would extend to the Triggered regen construct, since it's "just" regeneration with an added advantage.

 

Alternatively, the time period could be reduced with an advantage (which, frankly, is the way regeneration should work, but does not because the "reduced reuse time" advantage was aded after 5th Ed, so not available when Regen was designed.

 

The more important example thou is the "I use a power or ability that costs END" example of Triggered Rec that you brought up. As we will both agree such a power should never be allowed' date=' but the question is why. Is it that in this particular case due to the effect of the power, the GM should rule that this is an abusive use of Trigger and disallow it? Or is that because of such an example Trigger should not be allowed on REC in any case? Clearly you have to come down one way or the other its just a matter of which way is preferable.[/quote']

 

It's not a denial of either. It is an indication of one of the reasons Trigger on the REC stat does not trigger an automatic "take a Recovery" action.

[mmshah]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

As noted in my post, I'm assuming that this would extend to the Triggered regen construct, since it's "just" regeneration with an added advantage.

 

 

Yes, if one feels that trigger bypasses the fact that characters cannot regenerate more then once per turn. Normally Id say that yes one could use trigger to do something more often then you could normally do, however in this case the fact that characters cannot regenerate more then once per turn is stated without any qualifier leading me to interpret that it cannot be circumvented.

 

Just as Steve stated, I agree that Trigger cant be used to get a recovery action for free, but what I'm most concerned with is why. To me its the Autoreset Triggers seem to me to be a big cause for concern, because they can activate powers very, very frequently destroying game balance. But rather then use those examples to disallow Triggers for entire classes for objects, it seems more prudent to take it on a case by case basis and let the GM allow or disallow the abusive things.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

I see it as simply the decision that most actions (Haymaker being one specifically noted under Trigger) cannot be Triggered. "Strike" and "Turn a power on" are the ones Trigger can be used for.

 

"Take a Recovery" is not one of those rare actions which can be the result of a Trigger.

[mmshah]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

In some sense you can Trigger a Haymaker, for example in Ultimate Speedster there is a power "Move and Grab By", it is Naked Trigger on STR that combines the 2 maneuvers.

 

Thus you could buy a Naked Trigger on STR to Haymaker upto X Active Points, and by the FAQ any added maneuver DCs must also be counted in the X Active Points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

In some sense you can Trigger a Haymaker, for example in Ultimate Speedster there is a power "Move and Grab By", it is Naked Trigger on STR that combines the 2 maneuvers.

 

Thus you could buy a Naked Trigger on STR to Haymaker upto X Active Points, and by the FAQ any added maneuver DCs must also be counted in the X Active Points.

 

The Trigger description explicitly precludes Triggering a Haymaker.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

You could also actively decide to take a nap.

Try it sometime. I'm sure your opponent will appreciate it.

 

A month of rest or a week of bed rest recovers your REC in BOD. You don't allow that to be Triggered. Healing is a separate power that regains lost BOD faster. You could also have Healing on STUN.

I was responding to your (SFX-based) claim that we shouldn't allow a Trigger to produce the results of a period of rest - which applies equally to REC as it does to Healing.

 

Many others have voiced there opinions here. The author of the rules has voiced his in the rules forum.

True, but no one has given me a *reason* why I shouldn't allow Trigger on REC to grant a Recovery (as per the written rules for both Trigger and REC). I prefer my games to be based on reason, not arbitrary pronouncements from on high. I had enough of that when I played that other system.

 

And if "Trigger on REC ... simply grants you REC which operates under the normal rules for REC," then why would you bother buying Trigger on it? Again, I'm just trying to be reasonable here: if you pay extra for something, you ought to get something extra.

 

Phil, if a new revision said "Triggered REC does not grant a recovery", wold you somehow be more accepting of it? It would still be one rules interpretation, subject to GM override.

And I would probably override it as an arbitrary restriction which makes no sense. My first question would be, "If Triggered REC doesn't grant a recovery, then what *does* it do?" If the answer is "nothing" or "nothing more than REC without the Trigger Advantage," then again, why would anyone buy it? If you pay more you should get more. Right?

 

The rules do not say "Triggered Recovery grants you an immediate recovery", nor do they say it does not. If either were present, the rules question would say "See 5er p xxx".

And IMO, they don't need to. The rules say what Trigger does, and the rules say what REC does. I can use simple logic to apply one to the other. The rules do not list every possible combination of Power/Characteristic/Skill/Perk and Advantage/Limitation, nor do they need to. They just list each Power/Char/Skill/Perk and each Advantage/Limitation and we can put them together ourselves.

 

So we buy Healing 1d6 Regeneration, 0 END (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), Trigger (+1/4 - when down BOD), trigger action takes no time (+1/4), trigger resets automatically (+1/2) 30 AP, Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time 1 week (-2 1/2). RP 7

There's no way I would ever allow that in a game. A Limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth any points. In this case, your -2.5 Extra Time doesn't seem to limit at all. All it seems to mean, byt your own interpretation is that they guy delays his superheroic debut by a week to start up his regeneration and then gets to regenerate for the rest of ever. It seems to me the extra time means it takes a week for each application of Healing to work, i.e., he only gets 1d6 Healing per week, which would be fine. Or perhaps it simply shuts off after the Trigger condition is no longer satisfied: once he's back up to full BODY, the Healing shuts off. Then when he gets injured again, he needs to take another whole week to start up the Regen. That might also be fair.

 

Stupid result, but consistent with your views on Trigger.

If that's what you think, then you haven't understood anything I've said.

 

Also on the action table [5er p 363] are Brace, Set and Haymaker. Why can't my Triggered EB be Braced, Set and Haymakered, if actions can be triggered?

I don't know how many more times I need to say this, or how else to phrase it so you'll understand my position: You don't buy Trigger on an Action. An "action" is only the *result* of the Trigger going off.

 

Also on the table are acceleration, changing clothes, getting to one's feet, recovering from being Stunned, shifting a multipower, shifting skill levels, speaking and using casual STR. Can I apply Trigger (with no new abilities - these are things anyone can do without any unusual abilities) to take these actions? If so, how? If not, taking a recovery is not singled out for special treatment as an action which cannot be Triggered.

REC is a characteristic that you can buy. It has a specific point value and not everyone has it in the same amount. These other things are not powers or characteristics. And yes, you can "trigger" them if you like (though you probably wouldn't buy the ability to do so with the Trigger Advantage). For example, to buy a "triggered" change of clothes, you buy Instant Change. To buy "triggered" Set, you'd just buy a CSL, perhaps with a limitation.

 

Powers are triggered. Maneuvers and actions are not triggered.

That's exactly what I've been saying. It's the *use* of the power that is triggered. In this case, it's the *use* of a characteristic. True, it doesn't take up one of the character's actions, but it does result in an "action," i.e., something happening. A Triggered EB results in the "action" of an EB going off. Triggered REC results in the Recovery "going off".

 

Allowing Trigger on REC to not only add REC under certain circumstances, but also to Trigger the "Taking a Recovery" action, you make that action an exception, as most actions CANNOT be triggered.

Whoa! Who said anything about adding REC? Trigger on REC is only that - the REC itself. It doesn't add any additional REC.

 

BTW, where does it say I must set a Mind Control command when I set the trigger? Depending on the nature of the Trigger, I may be able to pick the target of my attack. Why could I not pick the Mind Control command or Mental Illusion to be delivered in the same way?

It might not say it anywhere. It's just my common sense interpretation. Since Trigger goes off without any further input from the person who set it up, even if he's miles away, unconscious, or even dead. Sort of like a land mine - if you bury a land mine you have no knowledge of when or if it goes off, not do you get to choose at that moment who it goes off on. If one of your friends happens to step on it, that's too bad. If you want to have conscious control of a Triggered power as it goes off, that would require additional advantage(s) and be a lot more expensive. I'm not even sure how I'd build that, off hand. But that's a separate topic anyway.

 

Ultimately, if Trigger works on REC, I would be inclined to buy Trigger on my REC with the dual Triggers "I take STUN" and "I use a power or ability that costs END". It would be an automatic action that takes no time, and self-resetting.

I doubt I would ever allow such a power. From the beginning of this thread, I was referring to what the original poster wanted: the Trigger is unconsciousness, not simply being down on STUN or END. And in fact, it wouldn't even work on END, since your END equals your STUN when you wake up from being unconscious.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Try it sometime. I'm sure your opponent will appreciate it.

 

He'll also appreciate you shutting off all nonpersistent powers and dropping to 1/2 DCV to (attempt to) take a recovery.

 

And if "Trigger on REC ... simply grants you REC which operates under the normal rules for REC' date='" then why would you bother buying Trigger on it? Again, I'm just trying to be reasonable here: if you pay extra for something, you ought to get something extra.[/quote']

 

What does Trigger on DEX, CON, BOD, INT, EGO, CON, PD, ED, SPD, STUN or END grant you that just buying the ability would not have. Maybe you can have a Triggered PRE attack or a Triggered use of STR, but none of the other stats lend themselves to Trigger. There is no guarantee that every advantage (or every limitation) will be useful with every power or ability. What do I get if I make my Entangle Armor Piercing? How does "REC - Does Knockback" work?

 

I agree if you pay extra you should get something extra, so I would be inclined to advise that, as Trigger on REC does nothing, you should not pay for it. Just as I would say for Triggered INT or Ranged EGO.

 

And I would probably override it as an arbitrary restriction which makes no sense. My first question would be' date=' "If Triggered REC doesn't grant a recovery, then what *does* it do?" If the answer is "nothing" or "nothing more than REC without the Trigger Advantage," then again, why would anyone buy it? If you pay more you should get more. Right?[/quote']

 

Thus you should not pay for it.

 

And IMO' date=' they don't need to. The rules say what Trigger does,[/quote']

 

This Advantage allows a character to set up a power that activates when a defined circumstance occurs.

 

For triggered powers not activated by the character who bought the power' date=' the target of a Triggered power is the persn who sets off the Trigger[/quote']

 

So I guess buying Triggered REC "when I'm knocked out" means the guy who knocked me out gets the triggered REC. SInce I didn't buy my REC Usable on Others, it can't effect him, and by the rules that say what Trigger does, it won't affect me.

 

and the rules say what REC does.

 

Recovery represents how fast a character recovers from being exhausted or knocked out; it also alws the character to jheal more quickly.

 

Each point of REC allows the character to regain one point of lost STUN and one point of spent END each post-segment 12 recovery and each phase in which the character takes a recovery.

 

Taking a Recovery is a Full Phase Action and occurs at the end of the Segment (after all other characters who have a Phase that Segment have acted). A character who recovers during a Phase maydo nothing else - not even maintaining a constant power' date=' or Actions that cost no END or take no time (however, the character may take a Zero Phase Action to turn off a power.[/quote']

 

A character cannot Hold his Action (or voluntarily lower his DEX) and then Recover. A characger cannot Abort to a Recovery.

 

By this logic, the Rec can activate only if the trigger condition is met at the very start of the character's phase, and he is then forced to do nothing else that Phase. Maybe it's to my advantage to set his Trigger off...he loses his phase and drops to half DCV - he doesn't even benefit if one of my teammates hits him before the end of the segment. That's worse than getting nothing for an advantage!

 

I can use simple logic to apply one to the other. The rules do not list every possible combination of Power/Characteristic/Skill/Perk and Advantage/Limitation' date=' nor do they need to. They just list each Power/Char/Skill/Perk and each Advantage/Limitation and we can put them together ourselves.[/quote']

 

I don't believe a difference of opinion on the effect of Triggered REC is unreasonable - your interpretation can also be viable. However, I prefer mine, andthe comments from the author indicate it is what is intended, so I think I'll stick with my interpretation. In your game, however, I'll seriously consider Triggerred REC, since it's a pretty major boost to the value of my REC for a les than exorbitant cost.

 

There's no way I would ever allow that in a game. A Limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth any points. In this case' date=' your -2.5 Extra Time doesn't seem to limit at all.[/quote']

 

And yet the rules specifically describe how Extra Time and Trigger interact. Isn't that odd. Perhaps the fact that your interpretation leads to a ludicrous result should tell us something. BTW, it's still a great power even if I don't get the Extra Time as a limitation (I'll drop it to "1 turn" in that case).

 

So we buy Healing 1d6 Regeneration, 0 END (+1/2), persistent (+1/2), Trigger (+1/4 - when down BOD), trigger action takes no time (+1/4), trigger resets automatically (+1/2) 30 AP, Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time 1 turn (-0). RP 20

 

20 points to autoheal still seems very cheap.

 

I don't know how many more times I need to say this' date=' or how else to phrase it so you'll understand my position: You don't buy Trigger on an Action.[/quote']

 

I don't know why it is so difficult for you to wrap your head around the concept that Taking a Recover is an Action, and thus you cannot Trigger it.

 

An "action" is only the *result* of the Trigger going off.

 

And there is no such result from triggered REC.

 

REC is a characteristic that you can buy. It has a specific point value and not everyone has it in the same amount. These other things are not powers or characteristics. And yes' date=' you can "trigger" them if you like (though you probably wouldn't buy the ability to do so with the Trigger Advantage). For example, to buy a "triggered" change of clothes, you buy Instant Change. To buy "triggered" Set, you'd just buy a CSL, perhaps with a limitation.[/quote']

 

None of these examples are Triggering the Action, but rather simulating the Action with another power. Similarly, one would simulate Triggered REC by purchasing Healing, not by arguing that Triggered REC grants a Take a Recovery action, but other actions can't be triggered by putting Trigger on an ability that is used by taking that Action. If I buy an EB with Trigger and "can only be used to Rapid Firewhile Setting and Bracing", now do I get a triggered attack using Brace, Set and Rapid Fire? [Haymaker removed as it is explicitly forbidden.]

 

 

It might not say it anywhere. It's just my common sense interpretation. Since Trigger goes off without any further input from the person who set it up' date=' even if he's miles away, unconscious, or even dead. Sort of like a land mine - if you bury a land mine you have no knowledge of when or if it goes off, not do you get to choose at that moment who it goes off on. If one of your friends happens to step on it, that's too bad. If you want to have conscious control of a Triggered power as it goes off, that would require additional advantage(s) and be a lot more expensive. I'm not even sure how I'd build that, off hand. But that's a separate topic anyway.[/quote']

 

You have conscious control of any attack you Trigger through your own actions. The rules use an example of a bandolier of gremnades allowing the character to select a target when he activates the Trigger.

 

the Trigger is unconsciousness, not simply being down on STUN or END. And in fact, it wouldn't even work on END, since your END equals your STUN when you wake up from being unconscious.

 

OK, I'll buy a +1 advantage on 1 point of REC: Trigger (+1/4 - being unconscious); resets automatically (+1/2). I don't need Activation takes no time - that's for a Trigger I must activate myself. If I'm KO'd, my 1 point of REC is triggered and I recover 1 STUN. If I'm still unconscious, I recover another Stun. Once I have 1 STUN (and 1 END), I'm conscious and the Trigger stops.

 

I guess it doesn't matter a lot - I can fire a full EB, Pushed. It will KO me again, but my Trigger will bring me back to 1 STUN and 1 END. "I am the Wondrous Weeble! I wobble, but I don't fall down!"

[Vondy]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

A question from the heroically orthodox:

 

Wouldn't the orthodox (and least klunky) way to accomplish this effect be to use aid or healing with the requisite limitations and trigger? Or even regeneration for BDY and STN with the limitation: "only when unconscious or stunned?"

 

That said, I do sometimes purchase additional recovery and the limitation "body only" (-2) for characters with slow regen who only regenerate 1 body a day (approx). And I do allow the regeneration adders (limbs and organs, or resurrection).

 

We all have our little heresies... er, house rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

A question from the heroically orthodox:

 

Wouldn't the orthodox (and least klunky) way to accomplish this effect be to use aid or healing with the requisite limitations and trigger? Or even regeneration for BDY and STN with the limitation: "only when unconscious or stunned?"

 

I think the triggered Healing is a practical approach, other than the per day maximum, and that can at least be bought down to a per turn maximum. Regeneration would work as well, but would hold the recovery rate down to once per turn. I would allow either of these. I'd also consider allowing high levels of Regeneration to be spread out over the character's phases to simulate a more gradual recovery every phase.

 

That said' date=' I do sometimes purchase additional recovery and the limitation "body only" (-2) for characters with slow regen who only regenerate 1 body a day (approx). And I do allow the regeneration adders (limbs and organs, or resurrection).[/quote']

 

Wouldn't 1 BOD Regen (extra time 1/day) be cheaper than boosting REC to 30 to recover 1 BOD per day anyway?

 

Regardless, I see no reason a character could not have the ability to regenerate limbs and/or recover from death without regaining BOD faster than his REC would allow. On that basis, allowing the adders to work based on standard REC based BOD recovery seems reasonable. It just takes longer to come back.