(not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

[Dr.Device]

Not an Attack Action

Value: (+¼, +½, or +¾)

An attack power with this advantage can be used without using up an attack action.

 

At the +¼ level, using the power still takes a half-phase action, but can be followed by a move, another attack, or any other zero or half-phase action.

 

At the +½ level, using the affected power is a zero-phase action, and can be used any time a zero-phase action can be taken.

 

At the +¾ level, using the advantaged power is an action which takes no time, and can be used at any point, even after another attack. If the character aborts his phase, and had not used the advantaged power in his previous phase, he can still fire it, even though he can take no other actions.

 

At any level, the power may only be used once per phase.

 

Opinions?

 

 

 

As implied in the thread subject, this is not exactly a new advantage. You can already do this with the Trigger advantage. This is just a sort of pre-packaged trigger.

 

I thought it was worth putting out there, because someone looking for a way to achieve this effect might not think of using Trigger.

 

 

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

At a glance, I'd say the costs should be at least doubled. And even then, I think my response would be NIMC.

[Talon]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

Not sure why the answer is a spoiler...but I'm going to ruin the surprise.

 

 

...but I'll put in spoiler lines anyway...

 

 

 

 

Doing this as Trigger I would get somewhere around the following values:

 

+1/4 for 1 defined condition (making an attack gesture, whatever)

-1/4 for requiring a 1/2 Phase action (this is not in the rules but seems about right)

+1/2 for resetting immediately

 

(Alternately, you could say "takes a 1/2 Phase to reset" and apply a Limitation "must reset immediately" which would probably be a -1/4, but is more complicated.)

 

That's a +1/2 for a half-phase action, which turns into +3/4 for a 0 Phase and +1 for whenever you want...which seems maybe OK though (like many things) capable of being abused.

[Dr.Device]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

Not sure why the answer is a spoiler...

I just used the spoiler so people would think about it as a stand alone action first, rather than just assuming it was okay because it used an existing advantage.

 

Doing this as Trigger I would get somewhere around the following values:

 

+1/4 for 1 defined condition (making an attack gesture, whatever)

-1/4 for requiring a 1/2 Phase action (this is not in the rules but seems about right)

+1/2 for resetting immediately

 

(Alternately, you could say "takes a 1/2 Phase to reset" and apply a Limitation "must reset immediately" which would probably be a -1/4, but is more complicated.)

 

That's a +1/2 for a half-phase action, which turns into +3/4 for a 0 Phase and +1 for whenever you want...which seems maybe OK though (like many things) capable of being abused.

 

The base (+¼) level version is based on a set trigger with a half-phase reset and a zero-phase to activate, which comes to +¼. So you use a half phase to reset, then fire the power as a zero-phase action. Combined, that's just a half-phase action.

 

The mid (+½) is based on a set trigger with a zero-phase action to set and a zero-phase action to activate, for a total of a zero-phase action, adding up to +½.

 

The top (+¾) is based on a set trigger with a zero-phase action to set (which is assumed to be one of your unlimited free zero-phase actions at the beginning of your phase) and an action that takes no time to activate.

 

If you used the auto-reset, instead of the zero or half phase reset, it would eliminate the abort restriction. Arguably, it would also eliminate the once per phase restriction (see the strike back example in 5ER under trigger).

 

And yes, any version of this should have a big stop sign next to it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

The base (+¼) level version is based on a set trigger with a half-phase reset and a zero-phase to activate' date=' which comes to +¼. So you use a half phase to reset, then fire the power as a zero-phase action. Combined, that's just a half-phase action.[/quote']But it wouldn't work that way in combat, because those Half-Phases you'd be using to reset the Trigger would also be ending your Phases (because resetting the Trigger would, itself, be an Attack Action). In practice, using Trigger for this would mean Phase one, launch attack. Phase two, reset trigger (end of Phase). Phase three, launch attack. Etc.

[Dr.Device]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

But it wouldn't work that way in combat' date=' because those Half-Phases you'd be using to reset the Trigger would also be ending your Phases (because resetting the Trigger would, itself, be an Attack Action). In practice, using Trigger for this would mean Phase one, launch attack. Phase two, reset trigger (end of Phase). Phase three, launch attack. Etc.[/quote']

 

The rules don't say that setting (or resetting) a trigger is an attack action. The action listed on the chart (ignoring longer ones, not used above) is simply a half phase action, zero phase action, or no action at all, not an attack action.

 

By itself, you could argue that the half phase version would count as an attack action. There are no other zero-phase attack actions that I can think of though, and the auto-reset is explicitly not an attack action. Consistency would seem to indicate that none of them are.

 

 

If there were an official ruling that the half and zero-phase versions did count as attack actions, then it would raise the costs by 1/4, to buy the auto-reset version.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

The rules don't say that setting (or resetting) a trigger is an attack action.

Well I'll be darned! So they don't.

 

Well there's a nice, gigantic loophole...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

Not a loophole at all, Derek; Trigger (I assume) has always worked that way intentionally; that's how my Androids self-destructed during a melee in the sci-fi campaign.

 

Android takes damage; IF damage does not exceed BODY, Android esplodes. KABLOOEY! Trigger never resets.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

Not a loophole at all, Derek; Trigger (I assume) has always worked that way intentionally; that's how my Androids self-destructed during a melee in the sci-fi campaign.

 

Android takes damage; IF damage does not exceed BODY, Android esplodes. KABLOOEY! Trigger never resets.

Erm... how does that affect what I said?

[mmshah]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

Personally I dont think the auto-reset trigger allows you to reset more then once per Phase, otherwise theres no restriction at all on how many times you can use a power in one Phase, which depending on how you defined your trigger could be a totally ludicrous number with no game balance at all. Id say that auto-reset still means 1 reset per phase but that it takes no time, thus it can happen not on your Phase or possibly while unconcious if the Power is Persistent.

 

But even given the one reset per Phase you could still use the Power twice in one Phase because there is no such restriction on activation of Triggers, you just have to wait until the next Phase to reset it for the second time.

[BNakagawa]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

no thank you. too abuseable for my tastes.

[Dr.Device]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

Personally I dont think the auto-reset trigger allows you to reset more then once per Phase, otherwise theres no restriction at all on how many times you can use a power in one Phase, which depending on how you defined your trigger could be a totally ludicrous number with no game balance at all. Id say that auto-reset still means 1 reset per phase but that it takes no time, thus it can happen not on your Phase or possibly while unconcious if the Power is Persistent.

 

That would be a reasonable rule, but it is explicitly contradicted by the example in 5ER. The example counterstrike mentions it could go off everytime the character blocks a blow, even if he blocks ten blows in a single segment.

[BNakagawa]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

That would be a reasonable rule' date=' but it is explicitly contradicted by the example in 5ER. The example counterstrike mentions it could go off everytime the character blocks a blow, even if he blocks ten blows in a single segment.[/quote']

 

True, but I've always thought that to be a poor example of a legitimate use of the trigger advantage. (a land mine is the best one) This particular example seems more like a damage shield with a limitation that it only works when a martial block is performed.

[mmshah]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

Indeed your right Dr. never read the italics part in there before just the Auto Riposte thing on the side that doesnt clarify how many blocks you can make. I guess its just upto the GM to rule what triggers are ok and which are too abusive.

[Psylint]

Re: (not so) New Advantage: Not an Attack Action

 

I'm not sure it's all that abusive.

 

Think about it, Riposte triggered by a successful block has a steadily degrading curve, -2, -4, etc. for each consecutive block. Even a martial arts superstar is going to have a hard time making more than 2 or 3 consecutive blocks, and those folks action phases should come up pretty darned quickly, which breaks the chain as I understand it.

 

While I wouldn't go for the "not an attack action" trigger, I think using trigger to make something like riposte is at least as valid as the "reflex action pop smoke" example that Steve gave. [note too that it was a reflex action AND a multipower attack of sorts]

 

Peace