WWI Battleship

[RJB]

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

 

SMS Markgraf was built at the AG Weser shipyard in Bremen. Her keel was laid in November of 1911 and she was launched on 4 June 1913. After completion she was commissioned on 1 October 1914, and cost Germany 45 million Goldmarks. She was the third of four ships in her class, the others being the SMS König, the SMS Großer Kurfürst, and the SMS Kronprinz.

 

The Markgraf displaced 28,600 tons fully loaded, with a length of 175.4 m, a beam of 29.5 m and a draft of 9.19 m. She was powered by three Bergmann turbines developing 41,400 hp (30.8 MW) each, yielding a maximum speed of 21 knots.

She was armed with ten 30.5 cm (12-inch) guns arranged in five double gun turrets: two superfiring turrets fore and aft with one turret amidships between the two funnels. Like the earlier Kaiser class battleships, the Markgraf and her sisters could deliver a full broadside using all of her main guns. Her secondary armament were fourteen 15 cm (5.9-inch) guns, six 88 mm guns and five 50 cm underwater torpedo tubes, one in the bow and two on each beam. On commissioning she carried a crew of 41 officers and 1,095 enlisted men.

 

Hero Games writeup:

 

Size 86” x 15” 100pts

DCV -13

Mass(KB) 29KT(-18)

STR100

Def 24 66pts

BOD 30 + 15 (400mm armor)= 45 15pts

DEX 10

SPD 1 -10pts

Move 7” swim x8ncm (surface only, limit maneuver -½) 10pts

Total of 35 weapons broken down as follows:

12” gun x10 +2ocv +6rng (8 ½ d6K 500chg, OIF)

6” gun x14 +2ocv +4rng (6d6K 500chg, OIF)

3” gun x6 +2ocv +2rng (4 ½ d6K 500chg, OIF)

Torpedoes x5 (9d6K, 16chg, OIF, limit arc, ships only, mv112”/turn)

Total Weapon Cost 185pts

Total Ship Cost 366/73

[CorPse]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

Cool.

 

Always very interested to see things like this. As fate would have it, I'm reading the Water Vehicles section of TUV right now.

 

Quick design question: I notice the SPD 1, but a x8 NCM. Is there a reason you didn't go with a slightly higher Speed and lower NCM?

 

Also, if it's SPD 1, does that mean the guns can only fire once per turn? I can't remember if a vehicle's speed governs it's weapon fire or not.

[Edsel]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

I have the entire German High Seas fleet in 1:2400 scale miniature (capital ships at least). One of my old gaming groups used to play a lot of historical naval miniatures. I also have the whole British WWI fleet. Every US dreadnought from South Carolina onward (WWI and WWII). A good selection of the Imperial Japanese Navy for WWII. The whole Austro-Hungarian fleet. Lots of Pre-dreadnoughts for all four fleets as well.

 

Its good to see someone besides me still likes the battleships from the zenith of their age.

[CorPse]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

I have the entire German High Seas fleet in 1:2400 scale miniature (capital ships at least). One of my old gaming groups used to play a lot of historical naval miniatures. I also have the whole British WWI fleet. Every US dreadnought from South Carolina onward (WWI and WWII). A good selection of the Imperial Japanese Navy for WWII. The whole Austro-Hungarian fleet. Lots of Pre-dreadnoughts for all four fleets as well.

 

Its good to see someone besides me still likes the battleships from the zenith of their age.

 

Dang!

 

Sounds like RJB should come over to your house for a game Big Ed.

[RJB]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

I based the 1SPD on the notion that firing a broadside every 12 seconds is a pretty good rate for back then. The x8ncm means that it takes a battleship 96 seconds to go from dead in the water to full speed. Not sure if that's accurate...

 

About the guns? I based the damage off my old copy of Golden Age Champions. It had a 37mm gun do 3 1/2 d6 and a 75mm gun do 4d6+1. From this I extrapolated that every 20mm = +1DC

 

Im not exactly a huge fan of warships, but I needed one for a scenario Im working on and I was disappointed to find that neither FRed, GAC, or Pulp Hero had a proper write-up for one. I suppose if you want something done right...

[CorPse]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

I based the 1SPD on the notion that firing a broadside every 12 seconds is a pretty good rate for back then. The x8ncm means that it takes a battleship 96 seconds to go from dead in the water to full speed. Not sure if that's accurate...

 

About the guns? I based the damage off my old copy of Golden Age Champions. It had a 37mm gun do 3 1/2 d6 and a 75mm gun do 4d6+1. From this I extrapolated that every 20mm = +1DC

 

Im not exactly a huge fan of warships, but I needed one for a scenario Im working on and I was disappointed to find that neither FRed, GAC, or Pulp Hero had a proper write-up for one. I suppose if you want something done right...

 

Cool, good to know your thinking on that. I wonder if the The Ultimate Vehicle or the Vehicle Sourcebook have something like.

[Edsel]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

A rate of fire of 1 shot from the big cannons every 12 seconds would likely be impossible. The ROF would be 2 or 3 rounds per minute.

[RJB]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

Then I would definitely keep the speed at 1 and put a limitation on the guns: one phase to load and one to fire. That would give an average fire rate of 2.5/minute.

[Spence]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

A rate of fire of 1 shot from the big cannons every 12 seconds would likely be impossible. The ROF would be 2 or 3 rounds per minute.

 

Then I would definitely keep the speed at 1 and put a limitation on the guns: one phase to load and one to fire. That would give an average fire rate of 2.5/minute.

 

I wish I coould find an old book I have. It gave a lot of data on sea trails of many of the WW1 ships, including speed trials, getting underway time/speed and results of some of the German gunnery drills.

 

I did find references that the 1st Aufklarungsgruppe (which I belief roughly translates to 1st Scouting group) Jutland, consisting of the Derfflinger, Lutzow, Moltke, Seydlitz and Von der Tann initially opened fire at 8 nautical miles and were recorded with main batteries firing “with clockwork regularity, four-gun salvoes every 20 seconds”. When the range dropped to around 6 nautical miles it goes on to say that the secondary batteries opened as well and one quote is “….. Including the secondary armament we were firing on an average one mighty salvo every seven seconds…..”.

 

The Margraf is recorded as firing 254 12inch shells and 214 5.9 inch shells in Jutland. Rate of fire will be greatly affected by range, but it is staggering to see just how fast those old ships could fire.

 

I wish I had my good books out…

[Edsel]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

Yeah many of those ships could fire their big guns as fast as once per 20-seconds. However since they usually had to wait to observe their shell splashes to correct their aim they usually shot much slower than they could have.

 

I have a good selection of books. Jane's All the Worlds Fighting Ships 1905-06, 1939, The WWI and WWII compilations of Jane's, Conways All the World's Fighting Ships Vol. 1 1860-1905, Vol II. 1906-21 & Vol. III 1922-46, and several other lesser know publications. I used to really be into this subject.

[Spence]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

Yeah many of those ships could fire their big guns as fast as once per 20-seconds. However since they usually had to wait to observe their shell splashes to correct their aim they usually shot much slower than they could have.

 

I have a good selection of books. Jane's All the Worlds Fighting Ships 1905-06, 1939, The WWI and WWII compilations of Jane's, Conways All the World's Fighting Ships Vol. 1 1860-1905, Vol II. 1906-21 & Vol. III 1922-46, and several other lesser know publications. I used to really be into this subject.

 

Yep, I used to also. Back when I gamed historical. I have the Jane's and most of the Conways. WW2 never interested me all. If you ever get the chance try reading Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy 1887-1941 by Evans and Peattie. For me it was a awesome and eyeopening book, at least until it entered the 1930's. Too modern

 

And yep, range was a big factor in ROF. But even with that I was always amazed by the number of rounds they did get off.

[st barbara]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

Range IS an important factor, but also the quality of the rangefinders. The Germans in World War I had excellent optics and long base rangefinders that meant that they were able to find their ranges faster than the British at battles like Jutland. The British rangefinders weren't as good but, partly because of a mechanical computer called the "Dreyer Firing Table" (I think that's the spelling) once the British FOUND the range they tended to hold it better, which explains in part the (German) figure of 80 hits with heavy shell by the British to 18 by the Germans at the Battle of Jutland.

[Susano]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

If you need vehicles, I recommend my site:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsvehicles/vehicle.html

 

It may not have everything, but there's a lot there you can play with. And if you have HD, I'm slowly adding all of my designs to HD and then posting them to my site.

[Spence]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

Range IS an important factor' date=' but also the quality of the rangefinders. The Germans in World War I had excellent optics and long base rangefinders that meant that they were able to find their ranges faster than the British at battles like Jutland. The British rangefinders weren't as good but, partly because of a mechanical computer called the "Dreyer Firing Table" (I think that's the spelling) once the British FOUND the range they tended to hold it better, which explains in part the (German) figure of 80 hits with heavy shell by the British to 18 by the Germans at the Battle of Jutland.[/quote']

 

Hmmm,

 

The totals differ from my info.

 

The Germans took approx 100 hits from heavy hits (2 against light units, light cruiser Pillau and TB V29) and 42 secondaries (15 on CL's and 11 on TB's).

The total heavy shells fired by the Germans was 3597 securing a strike rate of 3.33% (120 hits).

 

The British took approx 120 heavy hits (only one a light, the Destroyer Defender) and 107 secondary battery hits (only 20 on armored cruisers and heavier). The total heavy shells fired by the British was 4598 with a strike rate of 2.17% (100 hits).

 

Now the numbers are primarily based on the surviving vessels since they cannot confirm the number if hits on those that sunk.

 

Also I don't have all of my books and these figures are the middle ones from the three books I do have.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

A 4 gun round every 20 seconds means an Attack every 2 turns, but not a ROF of 3/minute. That would require all guns firing. Fiddling with speed is not the way to go here, though, because the smaller guns will have a much higher ROF and there should also be torpedoes to consider.

On the gunnery subject; watch out, there are some myths out there, some embraced by apparently quite serious books. A new revisionist work, John Brooks, Dreadnought Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland is out, although unfortunately too expensive for anyone to actually buy.

On the optics thing, (IMNHO Warning!) I reconstruct the story as follows: in the 1880s, Britain had a small optical industry centred in London and Birmingham, often subsidiaries of Prussian companies to facilitate prism dumping. (Prussia has the right sand, and so makes optical glass. British deposits had not then been found.) At this point, high precision optical needs are dominated by astronomy. (Which is what makes the whole "inferior British optics" story such nonsense. Astronomy required far higher performance than military rangefinders.) However, surveyors are making better and better instruments, and armies and navies are experimenting. Two professors in Yorkshire, Barr and Stroud, put in a bid to the navy and army for a calculating optical rangefinder. The navy buys, but not the army. It is good, and orders steadily build up. By 1910, Barr and Stroud have a big factory in Glasgow, a Liberal bastion whose senior minister is --wait for it-- in charge of the army, while Birmingham and London are now Unionist strongholds again.

At this point, the army finally admits that it needs a calculating rangefinder. Barr and Stroud has been doing the corporate raiding thing for years, taking over London firms, shutting them down, and moving the work to Glasgow. Now its only rival is Chance Brothers of Birmingham. Time to bring out the big guns. The country is ga-ga over the "National Efficiency Movement," best described as a "if it's British, it's crap" campaign for subsidies, tariffs, and more money for the right schools and universities. Led in the Liberal Cabinet by --wait for it-- the Secretary of State for War.

A word in the right ears and the story is everywhere, and there are jobs aplenty for Glasgow! Yay!

Spring forward to the summer of 1916. The mind-blowingly over-confident Royal Navy is out looking for Germans. They've totally ignored safety regulations in order to stock more ammunition in the turrets of the battleships in order to push up the achieved ROF, in spite of the fact that turrets in this era are not designed to be impenetrable. (That's why battleships have so many of them.). After all, "speed is armour," "fast firing is accurate firing," "war is peace," all that stuff.

When they, predictably, get what is coming for them, the officers of the Grand Fleet can't look for scapegoats fast enough, because some serious professionals are already investigating what made assorted ships suddenly blow up in the Battle of Jutland. The Germans are talking up a storm, how their ships resisted countless British hits with nary a scratch due to superior German engineering.

No one knows what happened over there yet --it's only a week since the battle. The point is to have an excuse out there before the facts solidify in any important minds. Thank Heavens for censorship, so that the great unwashed won't get involved. All you need is a story to distract a few people. Oh, here it is, "National Efficiency!" Perfect. It was all the engineers' fault. The Fleet was let down by inferior shells, armour, optics, toasters, you name it.

Say it long enough, and loud enough, and by the time peace rolls around and the Press is unmuzzled, it will be the Truth, and no-one will ever trace the responsibility trail and find out just who let all that naked propellant sit out in the open in vulnerable turrets.

[Spence]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

A 4 gun round every 20 seconds means an Attack every 2 turns, but not a ROF of 3/minute. That would require all guns firing. Fiddling with speed is not the way to go here, though, because the smaller guns will have a much higher ROF and there should also be torpedoes to consider.

 

--snip--

 

On the gunnery subject; watch out, there are some myths out there, some embraced by apparently quite serious books.

 

I agree on the ROF, and torpedoes were more of a fear factor than an actual threat but still should be taken into account. For me writing up a large battewagon of the period should have more emphasis on game play than reality. I just find the period fascinating and it makes it almost impossible for me not to say something when I see it.

 

On the second, you are being kind There are some books out there basing themselves on out and out propaganda. But with enough patience you can gather enough facts to get a picture.

[st barbara]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

Hmmm,

 

The totals differ from my info.

 

The Germans took approx 100 hits from heavy hits (2 against light units, light cruiser Pillau and TB V29) and 42 secondaries (15 on CL's and 11 on TB's).

The total heavy shells fired by the Germans was 3597 securing a strike rate of 3.33% (120 hits).

 

The British took approx 120 heavy hits (only one a light, the Destroyer Defender) and 107 secondary battery hits (only 20 on armored cruisers and heavier). The total heavy shells fired by the British was 4598 with a strike rate of 2.17% (100 hits).

 

Now the numbers are primarily based on the surviving vessels since they cannot confirm the number if hits on those that sunk.

 

Also I don't have all of my books and these figures are the middle ones from the three books I do have.

The "80 to 18" figure that I quoted is (as far as I know) taken from the German Official History ("Der Fleet Der Noordzee"). My copy of "Naval Operations Vol III" by Julian S Corbett (Official admiralty history, written in 1923) gives a figure of 121 to 55 large projectiles ( I presume 11" or larger) and 68 to 37 small projectiles in favour of the British.

[Susano]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

The Crew-Served and Extra Time Limitations should really go a long way to fixing the ROT issue.

[Spence]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

The "80 to 18" figure that I quoted is (as far as I know) taken from the German Official History ("Der Fleet Der Noordzee"). My copy of "Naval Operations Vol III" by Julian S Corbett (Official admiralty history' date=' written in 1923) gives a figure of 121 to 55 large projectiles ( I presume 11" or larger) and 68 to 37 small projectiles in favour of the British.[/quote']

 

This one references Der Krieg in der Nordsee, Band I-V, where band V deals with Jutland (1925).

 

I did a search and can only find reference to the title applied to a 3 volume set from 1922. It could mean vols 4&5 came later. Or one of the sources is misquoted.

 

While I take the number of hit scored against British ships with a grain of salt in a German book from back then. The excerpts specify how many hits each ship took by name, for instance Derflingger took 17 heavy gun and 9 secondary gun hits with repairs completing on 15 Oct.

 

Detailed damage and repair info on German ships in German documents tend to support the higher numbers (at least IMO). Same with the British.

 

I think both sides minimized the enemy and padded their own numbers to look more effective. But doc's citing logistic data tend to support the munitions expenditures and to me the actual ships lost/damaged and the actual casualty count tends to support support a much higher German hit rate than only 18 hits out of 3500+ rounds fired.

 

And the British hit more than 80.

 

Again I can't say that you are wrong. But I think the source is a bit low in its count. I really wish I could afford some of the original books and not have to rely on more modern books that only reference the original ones.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: WWI Battleship

 

The German official naval history is a bibliographer's nightmare. Krieg zur See im Weltkrieg (I think) started with consolidated volume numbers covering various theatres, acquired subtitles ie (Krieg zur Nordsee), and later acquired a new volume series when it moved on to the Baltic. It took 40 years to get that far (last volume was published in 1961), and changed authors, editors, publishers and even governments, so that you can't even go with the last resort and identify the country as the author. I would recommend going to your local library and shelf-scanning. Even at a major university library with the help of two reference librarians, that is the only way I got this information.

Don't forget that the British account of Jutland is divided between two volumes, battle and aftermath (and two authors: aren't official histories great?)

Or you can just cut to the chase and look up Mark Campbell's Jutland: An Analysis of the Fighting.