reverse vulnerability

[CTaylor]

There is an effect in several different fantasy settings that I'm having a difficult time working up in Hero. It's somewhat powerful but not as powerful as the cost ends up being for what I'm working on.

 

The effect is this: when certain kinds of spells are cast on a target, they are more effective.

 

Examples:

A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect

A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic

A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic

A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone else

 

Now, the detrimental one could in theory be built with a transformation attack that gives the victim a temporary vulnerability, but we're talking 70 or more active points just to make certain spells hit a little harder, which seems a bit excessive.

 

As for the beneficial effects, I'm not exactly sure how to build those, I guess you could put a continual heal on someone that only goes off when someone casts a heal on them, but we're talking a pretty huge effect. Any thoughts?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

The transform could 'provide' the recipient of the spell with a VPP that is cosmic, with no conscious control. Instead it adds to whatever type of magic it is sensitive to - adding to it and making it more effective.

 

 

Doc

[JmOz]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

Tricky builds, will think about them later, but if you want to go with the transform version, try something akin to

 

1d6 Major Transform, Contuinous, uncontrolable, 0 End, spell will take a couple min to finish the transform, for the cost of 45 Active points...

[runescience]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

could you do that with an aid spell, where the aid is effectly bestowing a pool of some sort on the intended?

[CTaylor]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

I think the Transform build is the worst possible choice for this particular effect. I mean, sure it can do it, but it can model every effect: Minor transformation for a punch; target now has reduced stun and body!

 

The Curse power I suggested a while back would simulate the negative effect, may be a "blessing" effect is in order as well.

[runescience]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

A drain would do it. how bout a drain with a trigger, for curses,

and a aid for the blessings.

[Maccabe]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

I agree with runescience. Make it a Drain / Aid (Body)

 

Paladin's blessing AID (Body) Only when healed by others

Warlocks curse DRAIN (Body) When attacked with adjustment powers

Wizards Defense spell AID (Body) LINKED to defensive powers/spells

Priest curse Drain (Body) Only when target attacks another

[CTaylor]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

Problem with Aid is that it's not really a heal. The aided points go away after a while, and stack on top of points you already have. And if you use a continuous heal effect that has its own problems with range and so on.

 

Drain could work, although it doesn't really simulate what the effect is. If the concept is "any of x special effect of spells" for example you have problems of a Body drain going off when you use a flash.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

I think the Transform build is the worst possible choice for this particular effect. I mean' date=' sure it can do it, but it can model [i']every[/i] effect: Minor transformation for a punch; target now has reduced stun and body!

 

The Curse power I suggested a while back would simulate the negative effect, may be a "blessing" effect is in order as well.

 

 

While transform can do everything, there are some things that cannot be done any other way.

 

Even with the trnsform I suggested there is still the problem of making the effect fit the proposed SFX. If you wanted something to add to any heal done on the character could you always be certain that the healing would be to STUN or BODY, would restoring lost stats also count? If so, you need to deliver the recipient of the spell with something that will react to the situation.

 

Bestowing a limited VPP ensures that every effect that comes the way of the character can be accommodated and enhanced...

 

Transform is the only way to bestow a VPP on someone.

 

Doc

[CTaylor]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

I think I'm going to have to settle to the idea that there's really no good way to build these effects in Hero and thus maybe there ought to be a mechanic added for them in any new edition.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

I think I'm going to have to settle to the idea that there's really no good way to build these effects in Hero and thus maybe there ought to be a mechanic added for them in any new edition.

 

So you going to go to the rules forums and suggest how such a mechanic might work - costs etc?

 

I know at least one person that would be interested in discussing it and a number of people who will test the concept in the interests of Hero system purity for you...

 

Doc

[CTaylor]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

Well the first half would probably be my Curse power I suggested a while back but for the other half I'm not sure: a power that enhances other powers (the "reverse vulnerability" concept) I don't know what that would look like. For it to be a useful part of the toolkit it would need to have a broader range of effects other than "makes other powers work better" I would think.

[ghost-angel]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

Aid; Usable By Other; Delayed Effect and possibly Differing Modifiers.

or

Aid; Usable By Other; Time Delay and possibly Differing Modifiers.

 

The Delayed Effect and Time Delay are different approaches to overcoming the need for Line Of Sight to maintain the UBO Advantage. The Aid is bestowed, and receiver then activates the Aid: The Delayed Effect allows them to "store" that Aid until they activate it when a Healing Spell is applied / The Time Delay allows them to say "Aid takes effect when a Healing Spell is applied.

[Curufea]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

What about some kind of Environmental Control?

[sbarron]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

Examples:

A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect

A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic

A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic

A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone else

Ok, I look at these spells, and I don't think they are actually all that similar. Looking for a unifying power to represent all of them doesn't appear to work. So, I'm going to go through each in turn and tell you how I'd do it.

 

A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect

 

In the case of the blessing, the one providing the blessing is healing the target, but delaying the effect until someone else casts a healing spell. And since delayed effect is actually for the casting character, trigger becomes the obvious choice to model this effect.

 

Blessed Healing: Healing BODY 1d6, Trigger (Only works after another healing spell is cast on character, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Blessed healing fades after 1 month; +1) (20 Active Points)

 

The character performing the blessing has to invest END into the Triggered power. The more END he invests, the more often the blessing will work. I've put a 1 month limit on this, just because I thought that made sense. You can adjust as you see fit.

 

A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic

 

Ok, increasing damage taken by adjustment magic. This could be done by lowering the PD/ED of the character, but only vs. adjustment magic. It could also be done by lowering the characters Power Defense, if adjustment magic is talking about "Adjustment powers." Lastly, it could be done with Transform, creating a character vulnerable to adjustment attacks. I realize this isn't sexy, but without knowing more about your campaign, its hard to define something for this.

 

A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic"

 

At first blush, this appears to be simply additional PD/ED. It seems that would work against everything but adjustment attacks, flash attacks, and stuff like that, wouldn't it? It could be in the form of a force field, armor, or just additional PD/ED, that only activates when defensive spells are cast.

 

A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone else

 

Flagellation: Drain BODY 1/2d6, Trigger is character hitting another living being with the intent to cause harm (activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Trigger can expire (Curse magic fades after 1 month); +3/4) (9 Active Points)

 

Like Blessed Healing above, the character would have to invest enough END into this power to keep it working more than one time. Because its a Body Drain, repeated use could be very dangerous. Since it is only a curse, and probably more intended to teach a lesson, I think making it a Stun Drain makes more sense. Plus, you do twice as much Stun as you could could Body, and would reliably always hurt the cursed character. Using Body, this power wouldn't work 1/3 of the time, because you'd need to do 2 character points to actually deduct Body.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

A paladin puts a blessing on his ally that makes all healing spells increased in effect

 

In the case of the blessing, the one providing the blessing is healing the target, but delaying the effect until someone else casts a healing spell. And since delayed effect is actually for the casting character, trigger becomes the obvious choice to model this effect.

 

Blessed Healing: Healing BODY 1d6, Trigger (Only works after another healing spell is cast on character, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Blessed healing fades after 1 month; +1) (20 Active Points)

 

The character performing the blessing has to invest END into the Triggered power. The more END he invests, the more often the blessing will work. I've put a 1 month limit on this, just because I thought that made sense. You can adjust as you see fit.

 

I like this model.

 

A warlock puts a curse on a target that increases damage taken by adjustment magic

 

Ok, increasing damage taken by adjustment magic. This could be done by lowering the PD/ED of the character, but only vs. adjustment magic. It could also be done by lowering the characters Power Defense, if adjustment magic is talking about "Adjustment powers." Lastly, it could be done with Transform, creating a character vulnerable to adjustment attacks. I realize this isn't sexy, but without knowing more about your campaign, its hard to define something for this.

 

What about a Triggered adjustment power with the +1/4 "any power of one SFX" being "Any power which strikes the character"?

 

A wizard puts a spell on himself that increases defensive magic"

 

At first blush, this appears to be simply additional PD/ED. It seems that would work against everything but adjustment attacks, flash attacks, and stuff like that, wouldn't it? It could be in the form of a force field, armor, or just additional PD/ED, that only activates when defensive spells are cast.

 

Maybe a triggered Aid to all defensive magic targeting the character?

 

A priest curses a target so that they suffer damage each time they hit someone else

 

Flagellation: Drain BODY 1/2d6, Trigger is character hitting another living being with the intent to cause harm (activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Trigger can expire (Curse magic fades after 1 month); +3/4) (9 Active Points)

 

Like Blessed Healing above, the character would have to invest enough END into this power to keep it working more than one time. Because its a Body Drain, repeated use could be very dangerous. Since it is only a curse, and probably more intended to teach a lesson, I think making it a Stun Drain makes more sense. Plus, you do twice as much Stun as you could could Body, and would reliably always hurt the cursed character. Using Body, this power wouldn't work 1/3 of the time, because you'd need to do 2 character points to actually deduct Body.

 

You could make it 0 END to avoid the need to pump large quantities of END at the outset.

[CTaylor]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

The heal delay idea would roughly work, sort of, but since you have to reset a trigger every time it goes off, there's some problems with it. You can't just define the trigger as "automatically resets once used" as far as I know.

 

There's no good way to do the warlock's curse, especially since few people have power defense, and adjustment powers by default ignore pd and ed.

 

The mage buff would work to enhance all other magic effects, it has no effect on its own. As in it does nothing until a defensive buff is cast on him. This could be modeled with Aid, in theory (aid all four of defensive powers at once, etc).

 

The body drain effect has problems with resetting triggers and such.

[Nightshade]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

In lieu of triggers, use Continuing Charges lasting one month each and put a limitation "Only when X type action takes place" (value based on how common action is). So if there are a fair number of healers, perhaps the healing buff is -0 or -1/4, but if healing magics aren't common, maybe it's -1/2 or more.

 

Nightshade

[sbarron]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

The heal delay idea would roughly work' date=' sort of, but since you have to reset a trigger every time it goes off, there's some problems with it. You can't just define the trigger as "automatically resets once used" as far as I know.[/quote']Actually, Hero Designer provided the exact language "Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates." I didn't know that was an option either, but it's there, and seems to work great for this type of power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

The heal delay idea would roughly work' date=' sort of, but since you have to reset a trigger every time it goes off, there's some problems with it. You can't just define the trigger as "automatically resets once used" as far as I know.[/quote']

 

Trigger was significantly expanded in 5er based on a Digital Hero article Steve Long had written on Trigger. This was included as an option, at a higher cost.

 

There's no good way to do the warlock's curse' date=' especially since few people have power defense, and adjustment powers by default ignore pd and ed.[/quote']

 

Well, there's always Transform (from character to character with vulnerability to adjustment powers). A complex build would be a Triggered Succor, any one adjustment power, Triggered by someone using an adjustment power against the target. As soon as that enemy mage starts casting his adjustment spell, the Curse kicks in and Succors the mage's adjustment spell. Once it hits the curse victim, the succor drops.

[sbarron]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

There's no good way to do the warlock's curse' date=' especially since few people have power defense, and adjustment powers by default ignore pd and ed.[/quote']I'm struggling with this one, too. But making characters vulnerable to "adjustment" powers really is a transform. The term Adjustment Power is a meta-game term, right? Would you attempt to model something similar that affected "Attack Powers," or "Body Affecting Powers?" These are the exact same level of meta-groupings that "Adjustment Powers" comes from, and would suffer from the exact same problems in trying to model a power that wasn't a broad, over-arching transform. If you don't want to use transform, I'd suggest narrowing the focus down to something that is more readily definable...like transform attacks, drain attacks, physical attacks, etc.

 

All that said, I've got 2 new ideas for you. This first one is how I'd do a vulnerability to transform, without using a transform...

 

Warlock's Mutability Curse: Drain BODY 1 1/2d6' date=' Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2) (45 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-2 1/4), [u']Only to determine effect of Transforms[/u] (-2), Spell (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (7 Real Cost).

 

This Curse only makes characters more susceptable to Transforms. It can only be cast on one person at a time, and it lasts roughly a month. In my game, I'd probably lower the cost to 5 pts. I just think that's more in line with what it'd be worth in my game, since transforms aren't all that common.

 

Another idea, and since you're the GM this is certainly viable, is to allow Power Defense to be drained into the negatives...so if a character's Power Defense gets drained into the negatives, rather than helping a character defend against an adjustment attack, it actually causes them to take additional damage. I realize this is a stretch, but I think it would simulate the effect you're looking for nicely.

 

Warlock's Adjustment Curse: Drain Power Defense 1d6' date=' Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-2 1/4), Spell (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (6 Real Cost).[/quote']

 

An example for its use would look like...

 

Character A gets hit with Warlock's Adjustment Curse. He has 0 Power Defense. The Warlock roles a 4 on his 1d6 Power Defense Drain. Character A now has -4 Power Defense.

 

Character A is later hit with a Transfer attack, Tranfering his STUN to a Necromancer's STUN. The Necromancer roles his 1d6 Transfer damage, and roles a 6. However, as Characecter A has a -4 Power Defense, his character actually loses 10 STUN, not the 6 that was rolled. And just to complete the effect, I'd probably rule that the Necromances gets the whole 10 STUN, since "the curse" is supposed to strengthen his attack.

[LoresLost]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

A Really Minor Quibble, should not your custom limitation read "Only to determine affect of Negative Adjustments and Transforms" ???

 

Warlock's Adjustment Curse: Drain Power Defense 1d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Month; +2) (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-2 1/4), Only to determine affect of Transforms (-2), Spell (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (6 Real Cost).

An example for its use would look like...

 

Character A gets hit with Warlock's Adjustment Curse. He has 0 Power Defense. The Warlock roles a 4 on his 1d6 Power Defense Drain. Character A now has -4 Power Defense.

 

Character A is later hit with a Transfer attack, Tranfering his STUN to a Necromancer's STUN. The Necromancer roles his 1d6 Transfer damage, and roles a 6. However, as Characecter A has a -4 Power Defense, his character actually loses 10 STUN, not the 6 that was rolled. And just to complete the effect, I'd probably rule that the Necromances gets the whole 10 STUN, since "the curse" is supposed to strengthen his attack.

[sbarron]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

A Really Minor Quibble' date=' should not your custom limitation read "Only to determine affect of Negative Adjustments and Transforms" ???[/quote']I don't think so. I don't think you can acquiesce to Transfroms, can you? So whether it is good or bad for the character shouldn't matter (unless you want it to matter, of course).

 

As far the the adjustments spell, I removed the language about "only for Transforms," because that was accidentally left over from the previous template. That limit doesn't apply for that spell.

 

But in truth, the limits are not my worries. Does the concept make sense to you? Would you allow it in your game?

[CTaylor]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

The idea I've been toying with is a blanket adjustment power that lets you either increase or decrease the effect of other powers (I had a great name but now I've forgotten it).

 

It would have to be built somewhat like Damage Reduction, with the shift given in steps. It is, in effect, a sort of reverse damage reduction.

 

This could look like:

 

x1 1/2 effect = 20 points

x2 effect = 40 points

x2 1/2 effect = 60 points

etc.

 

That would work on one power and only that one power (heal stun, drain flash defense, energy blast). Defensive powers would have half the effect. The standard adjustment modifiers wouldn't really work here because they're a bit too powerful - in fact one could argue they're just too powerful period.

 

Instead of being like an adjustment power that affects more than one power at a time, this would be a power that can work on more than one power ever.

 

I'd see it more like this:

 

+1/2: two powers of the same special effect

+1: four powers of the same special effect

+1 1/2: any powers of the same special effect

+2: any powers from any special effect

 

So you could give someone vulnerability (or increased effect) to a single power of x1 1/2 effect for 20 points. You could give someone increased effect to any healing magic for +1 1/2 advantage, or 50 points.

 

This should cost Endurance, have no range, and it probably would have a range, since that would jack the cost up to give someone this independent of the person granting the ability.

 

Now we run into a question: does this work like the disadvantage (increases before defenses) or like body damage with hit locations (increases after defenses)?

[sbarron]

Re: reverse vulnerability

 

I'm all for changing the system to fit your game. But this is just wandering too far off the reservation for me. You're creating a very complex rule. It doesn't seem very intuitive and the costs seem to be way out of whack for the benefits. Also, for the points that you're talking now, Transform again seems to be a viable option, doesn't it?

 

Good luck CTaylor. I hope you find what you're looking for...