Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

[Trebuchet]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Comic book characters are so wildly inconsistent from title to title and story to story (or even' date=' in the hands of some writers, from page to page) that character sheets are a rough approximation at best anyway.[/quote']I think this is the crux of the matter. Superhero games, especially point-based ones like Champions, provide enormously more consistency from session to session than comics do from issue to issue. Comic book writers don't have a nice chart (read: character sheet) to tell them "Batman has a 25 STR and 5 SPD and the Batmobile costs 242 points." What they have is a vastly looser guideline based on continuity, the individual writer's whim, the proposed storyline, and what looks cool drawn in the panels of a comic book.

 

Set two Champions players down with an unfamiliar character sheet and they'll be pretty similar in what they think the character can and can't do. Set Neal Adams down next to Frank Miller and you're going to get two very different interpretations of Batman.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

If Batman has overall skill levels and lightning reflexes, doesn't he just have DEX you've made him pay more for? I mean, DEX, even accepting that levels can do more than DEX, is a REAL bargain.

 

I mean, how about this:

 

Batman: DEX 20 (30 points)

 

+ 10 DEX (sfx: training) linked to INT (so that if you are made stupid, you forget your training) -1/2: 30 active, 20 real points.

 

So Batman has 30 DEX, but it is treated as coming from two different special effects, and the top 10 points are limited to reflect that it is trained DEX. he can still have extra levels - he should - but at least this bit is cheaper, and still feels 'human'.

 

Thing is that Batman really is very effective against major supers in his JLA role, so it doesn't make sense that he employs a more expensive build, unless he is simply built on more points than everyone else.

 

In a 'street' game, I'd be inclined to simply build another character entirely, rather than try to jimmy the 'monster Batman build' into a lower level character with 'only in the right genre' limitations. I have a metagame objection to that approach, you see.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

It's really really not about point efficiency at all with our group but designing the character so it feels right for us. Making a batmanoid Superhuman through smoke and mirrors would still seem to be superhuman to our group. " If you wanted to play spider-man with batman's personality why didn't you just make the appropriate character?" Would be my players' response.

[Kenn]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

I'm gonna go with Steamtek. I've been running my campaign for nearly 20 years and have largly enforced a policy that physical characteristics above 20 are superhuman. And it works. Granted some players can handle these types of characters better then others. The players, like the characters, have to play smarter.

 

Consider... Conceptually is Batmas suppossed to be able to lift in excess of 900 lbs.? Is he suppossed to be able to run the mile in 2 minutes 13 seconds? No. Therefore a STR greater than 20 and a SPD of 6 are wrong for him.

 

If people want to use limited characteristics to represent particular abilities, fine. But the a character who is conceptually human should have his/her basic abilities limited to what a human being can do.

[archermoo]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

I'm gonna go with Steamtek. I've been running my campaign for nearly 20 years and have largly enforced a policy that physical characteristics above 20 are superhuman. And it works. Granted some players can handle these types of characters better then others. The players' date=' like the characters, have to play smarter. [/quote']

 

Cool. I've been playing for 25 years, and have played in campaigns where anything over 20 was considered superhuman. And have played in campaigns where superhuman was higher than that, and even where it was a much more nebulous concept. Most of them worked quite well. Neither way of doing things required "smarter" players.

 

Consider... Conceptually is Batmas suppossed to be able to lift in excess of 900 lbs.? Is he suppossed to be able to run the mile in 2 minutes 13 seconds? No. Therefore a STR greater than 20 and a SPD of 6 are wrong for him.

 

If people want to use limited characteristics to represent particular abilities, fine. But the a character who is conceptually human should have his/her basic abilities limited to what a human being can do.

 

I agree. Then again, I've also seen human beings lift in excess of 900 lbs. In general I'm content to go with what the rules list as Superhuman as being a good rule of thumb for the cutoff.

[OddHat]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Consider... Conceptually is Batmas suppossed to be able to lift in excess of 900 lbs.? Is he suppossed to be able to run the mile in 2 minutes 13 seconds? No. Therefore a STR greater than 20 and a SPD of 6 are wrong for him.

 

If people want to use limited characteristics to represent particular abilities, fine. But the a character who is conceptually human should have his/her basic abilities limited to what a human being can do.

 

I'd just point out that there are real people able to lift over 900 lbs. So, I'd say that's within the bounds of what real people can do.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

I'd just point out that there are real people able to lift over 900 lbs. So, I'd say that's within the bounds of what real people can do.

 

 

Well, that assumes we accept that real people are realistic

 

The old DC Heroes noted that Batman's STR stat was a matter of some discussion, because the range for the stat just below ended slightly under human world records. The decision was ultimately made that Bats should be able to meet or beat human records, so he was given the higher stat despite the fact that the high end of the range for that STR was clearly well above human capabilities.

 

Unless we want STR scores for every pound that could be lifted, we're stuck with a range, and an ever widening one using a logarithmic scale.

[nexus]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

True, like pretty much any rpg system, Hero's stats are an approximation.

[OddHat]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Well, that assumes we accept that real people are realistic

 

The old DC Heroes noted that Batman's STR stat was a matter of some discussion, because the range for the stat just below ended slightly under human world records. The decision was ultimately made that Bats should be able to meet or beat human records, so he was given the higher stat despite the fact that the high end of the range for that STR was clearly well above human capabilities.

 

Unless we want STR scores for every pound that could be lifted, we're stuck with a range, and an ever widening one using a logarithmic scale.

 

Sure. And as I've said elsewhere, Hero stats are only ever rough approximations anyway. They only really have meaning in the context of a game system and specific campaign.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

I'd just point out that there are real people able to lift over 900 lbs. So, I'd say that's within the bounds of what real people can do.

 

 

Cool! But is Batman, Daredevil etc. supposed to be able to do that I guess is the question. Does it feel right for the character for Bats to lift up one end of a car? Doc Savage, Yes Batman , no IMO. Again whatever feels right for your group is the right way. To us NCM works and minifies our suspension of disbelief.

[archermoo]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Cool! But is Batman' date=' Daredevil etc. supposed to be able to do that I guess is the question. Does it feel right for the character for Bats to lift up one end of a car? Doc Savage, Yes Batman , no IMO. Again whatever feels right for your group is the right way. To us NCM works and minifies our suspension of disbelief.[/quote']

 

Just as another note, NCM doubling points do not denote the maximum that characteristics can be and still be considered non-super. At least not in the RAW. I'm assuming you're using NCM as shorthand for "NCM doubling points used as a hard maximum for what normal humans can have", but that can lead to misunderstandings. For instance, I might have misunderstood what you meant here.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

We are not even considering pushing here, are we?

[archermoo]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

We are not even considering pushing here' date=' are we?[/quote']

 

I suppose that depends on what context. For purposes of how much STR stat would be required for world record weightlifting? No, since you have to be a Hero to be able to push. And while some may idolize world record holders, they aren't really heroes.

 

EDIT: And even if they were, lifting weights to set records isn't an heroic action, so it still wouldn't count.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Just as another note' date=' NCM doubling points do not denote the maximum that characteristics can be and still be considered non-super. At least not in the RAW. I'm assuming you're using NCM as shorthand for "NCM doubling points used as a hard maximum for what normal humans can have", but that can lead to misunderstandings. For instance, I might have misunderstood what you meant here. [/quote']

 

 

You assume correctly. I kind of thought that the soft cap was the default.Although above is certainly crossing into the cinematic land of characters to our group. I really don't like hard caps in my games. Even the supers have their version of NCM. Its just higher.

[archermoo]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

You assume correctly.Although above os certainly crossing into the cinematic land of characters to our group.

 

Oh, I understand. I was just pointing out that using "NCM" to refer to your customization of/point of view on the rules might lead to confusion. I like to try and avoid confusion wherever I can.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

I suppose that depends on what context. For purposes of how much STR stat would be required for world record weightlifting? No, since you have to be a Hero to be able to push. And while some may idolize world record holders, they aren't really heroes.

 

EDIT: And even if they were, lifting weights to set records isn't an heroic action, so it still wouldn't count.

 

 

Well I dare say a lot of Olympic athletes see themselves as heroes. Many athletes are not there for the fame and glory but to prove something to themselves and to others, to inspire and to lead; to help people find a little light in what might well be dark lives.

 

That could certainly be seen as heroic. Lifting a weight for the pride of a nation may well qualify. We may well have had this conversation before though

[mallet]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Just jumping in late here with my thoughts.

 

While I will agree that what is considered "human max" will very from game to game, Gm to Gm, etc... It would be nice to have an official declaration (or at a minimum a large group agreement) of what the maximum human stat is in the Hero System just so we could have a solid baseline for comparing characters of different games and as a set jumping point for discussions just like these (because there really seems to be a lot of them) and most of the problems seem to arise because everyone has different view on what is "a normal human stat" and what is a maximum human stat.

 

I am firmly in the "keep Batman with in human norms for stats and buy the rest up with skills/talents/etc..." camp.

 

Is it fair when other people can buy stats high enough to get eh same effect for cheaper? Sure. I'm a firm believer in people playing concepts/characters and building them from that idea. Mature enough players should be willing to except that and play the concept or come up with a new character concept/idea.

 

Also, if you are playing a 600 point game, maybe a "Batman-type" character is a bad fit right from the get go. Players (and their GM's) should realize this before they ever start playing a campaign and fix it before it is a problem.

 

In comics the writers force such team-ups because they are being forced by the editors to bring popular characters together to sell a product, even if it is a stupid idea and makes no logical sense. I mean why the hell would superman need batman to help him out? There is nothing Batman can do that superman couldn't do fast or better (or even differently) to get the same result.

 

In a RPG the GM isn't forced to make such concessions. If two characters (even if they are made with the same amount of points) are in vastly different power leagues then he should step in a do something about it. talk to one (or both) of the players and work with them to make things balanced if that is what they want. If it isn't then there is no problem.

 

But it all comes down to GM control and being clear with the players about what the campaign will be like, what types of characters will fit, etc...

 

Most of the time it seems to me that the GM's leave to much up to the player to decide and don't like telling them "No" because they are afraid they player will be upset and not want to play, but then why play at all if the game won't be fun? Sure, in D&D all the players can make their own first level characters at home and just show up and start playing, because the system is built for that. Very little control, very little freedom, etc... But Hero's is the exact opposite. Two different 350 point character can be miles apart in power. I can't imagine every GMing (or even playing) a Hero game where the GM isn't a big part of player creation, just for this very fact.

 

Anyways, just my thoughts.

[OddHat]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

We are not even considering pushing here' date=' are we?[/quote']

 

Speaking as someone in this specific sport, no, we aren't. Your first lift in a competition is a weight you can handle for at least three reps in training, so as to avoid blowing your score with a failure. Your second lift is a weight you can reliably perform one or two reps with. Your third lift, if you choose to attempt it, is a personal record. It's not a push (as much as pushing can be said to exist at all in the real world), in that it's generally a weight you expect to reliably lift in training, not a once in a lifetime life or death lift.

 

Besides, I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as "pushing" outside of fiction. Certainly lifters who try to work themselves up emotionally before lifts don't seem to be moving any more weight than lifters of a similar build, training age and level, either in the gym or in competition.

[OddHat]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Also, if you are playing a 600 point game, maybe a "Batman-type" character is a bad fit right from the get go. Players (and their GM's) should realize this before they ever start playing a campaign and fix it before it is a problem.

 

I dunno. A 600 point Batman type with a bunch of superskills, 4-8 powerful vehicles and bases (Bat Jet, Bat Tank, Bat Anti-Kryptonian Battle Armor, Bat Cave, Bat Space Craft, Bat Sub, Batmobile, and Bat Space Station), and all the KS the gang needs could, imo, more than hold his own in a 600 point game. He just won't be duking it out with Darkside or Mongul, he'll be figuring out how to beat them with his Analyze and KSs while the bricks hold them back.

[JmOz]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Just jumping in late here with my thoughts.

 

While I will agree that what is considered "human max" will very from game to game, Gm to Gm, etc... It would be nice to have an official declaration (or at a minimum a large group agreement) of what the maximum human stat is in the Hero System just so we could have a solid baseline for comparing characters of different games and as a set jumping point for discussions just like these (because there really seems to be a lot of them) and most of the problems seem to arise because everyone has different view on what is "a normal human stat" and what is a maximum human stat.

 

I am firmly in the "keep Batman with in human norms for stats and buy the rest up with skills/talents/etc..." camp.

 

Is it fair when other people can buy stats high enough to get eh same effect for cheaper? Sure. I'm a firm believer in people playing concepts/characters and building them from that idea. Mature enough players should be willing to except that and play the concept or come up with a new character concept/idea.

 

Also, if you are playing a 600 point game, maybe a "Batman-type" character is a bad fit right from the get go. Players (and their GM's) should realize this before they ever start playing a campaign and fix it before it is a problem.

 

In comics the writers force such team-ups because they are being forced by the editors to bring popular characters together to sell a product, even if it is a stupid idea and makes no logical sense. I mean why the hell would superman need batman to help him out? There is nothing Batman can do that superman couldn't do fast or better (or even differently) to get the same result.

 

In a RPG the GM isn't forced to make such concessions. If two characters (even if they are made with the same amount of points) are in vastly different power leagues then he should step in a do something about it. talk to one (or both) of the players and work with them to make things balanced if that is what they want. If it isn't then there is no problem.

 

But it all comes down to GM control and being clear with the players about what the campaign will be like, what types of characters will fit, etc...

 

Most of the time it seems to me that the GM's leave to much up to the player to decide and don't like telling them "No" because they are afraid they player will be upset and not want to play, but then why play at all if the game won't be fun? Sure, in D&D all the players can make their own first level characters at home and just show up and start playing, because the system is built for that. Very little control, very little freedom, etc... But Hero's is the exact opposite. Two different 350 point character can be miles apart in power. I can't imagine every GMing (or even playing) a Hero game where the GM isn't a big part of player creation, just for this very fact.

 

Anyways, just my thoughts.

 

Maybe I am tired, and taking offence toeasily, but saying that the issue is one of imaturaty is flat out wrong and somewhat insulting.

 

As both a player and a GM I would have a serious problem with telling or being told that "He's a mutant so he can be built more effectivly than the trained normal". It is basicaly putting a tax on one special effect instead of another.

 

This is not an immaturity on my part, it is actualy being concerned about being fair.

 

Two other points for the "In concept" crowd

 

1) NCM is a soft cap, sorry to break it to you but it is not the peak of the human spectrum it is "the wall" where it is harder for a character to train, now if you are dealing with legendary characters (genre does not matter) you are going to be past that wall, the question becomes one of fairness again, are you going to charge the guy extra because his backstory says he was human?

 

2) Characteristics is a power in the game, powers can have different special effects, so please explain to me, and use simple words because I have recently been informed that I am "imature", why it is wrong to call the F/X for something intense training, you know the same reason why you will allow me to spend twice the number of points to buy it in pieces while Mutant boy buys it strait (but says it's his mutant power). It seems to me that the problem is one of locking in a f/x to a mechanic, similar to how some people feel that the Armor power can not be used to create a field of energy that prevents damage...

 

Oh and the official, been written in a number of books can be found on page 58 in champs, or page 20 of sidekick

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

I dunno. A 600 point Batman type with a bunch of superskills' date=' 4-8 powerful vehicles and bases (Bat Jet, Bat Tank, Bat Anti-Kryptonian Battle Armor, Bat Cave, Bat Space Craft, Bat Sub, Batmobile, and Bat Space Station), and all the KS the gang needs could, imo, more than hold his own in a 600 point game. He just won't be duking it out with Darkside or Mongul, he'll be figuring out how to beat them with his Analyze and KSs while the bricks hold them back.[/quote']

 

That's kinda what I was thinking. I could do a superskills/Bats/Terminator on 600 points and skill be cutting back ideas.

 

Harby is, whatm... almost 2000 points?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Maybe I am tired, and taking offence toeasily, but saying that the issue is one of imaturaty is flat out wrong and somewhat insulting.

 

As both a player and a GM I would have a serious problem with telling or being told that "He's a mutant so he can be built more effectivly than the trained normal". It is basicaly putting a tax on one special effect instead of another.

 

This is not an immaturity on my part, it is actualy being concerned about being fair.

 

Two other points for the "In concept" crowd

 

1) NCM is a soft cap, sorry to break it to you but it is not the peak of the human spectrum it is "the wall" where it is harder for a character to train, now if you are dealing with legendary characters (genre does not matter) you are going to be past that wall, the question becomes one of fairness again, are you going to charge the guy extra because his backstory says he was human?

 

2) Characteristics is a power in the game, powers can have different special effects, so please explain to me, and use simple words because I have recently been informed that I am "imature", why it is wrong to call the F/X for something intense training, you know the same reason why you will allow me to spend twice the number of points to buy it in pieces while Mutant boy buys it strait (but says it's his mutant power). It seems to me that the problem is one of locking in a f/x to a mechanic, similar to how some people feel that the Armor power can not be used to create a field of energy that prevents damage...

 

Oh and the official, been written in a number of books can be found on page 58 in champs, or page 20 of sidekick

 

no reason at all, unless you decide to take the NCM disad. Generally those of us who do so for our characters are willing and able to still make superheroes who can compete following the NCM rules. I don't think ANYONE is suggesting imposing a double standard, as much as different ways of approaching campaign concepts.

 

I took NCM for Blackjack because I wanted him to be a well trained "normal". The only stat I bought above NCM was my Int, so I still got some 15 points "value" for the disad (FWIW). Granted....I spent a metric butt-load on skills, martial arts, CSL's, Overall levels, Perks Talents, etc.... in fact my only actual "power" was a big (100 point) gadget pool. I could compete. I was the mighty reaper of mooks. I accidentally KILLED Pulsar one early game when I loaded him full of throwing knives. I wound up as the leader of our "Avengers-esque" PRIMUS Paranormal Response Force. I went from a knife wielding Punisher homage to a cross between Forge and Nick Fury. Flexible builds require more thought, but can be insanely effective if played well.

 

I'm pretty sure the next time I run a supers game I'm gonna still use Heroic rules including NCM, and apply the "Characteristics bought as Powers sidestep NCM" bit, and yes, I might even allow the +10 dex power build suggested abovethread

[JmOz]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

no reason at all, unless you decide to take the NCM disad. Generally those of us who do so for our characters are willing and able to still make superheroes who can compete following the NCM rules. I don't think ANYONE is suggesting imposing a double standard, as much as different ways of approaching campaign concepts.

 

I took NCM for Blackjack because I wanted him to be a well trained "normal". The only stat I bought above NCM was my Int, so I still got some 15 points "value" for the disad (FWIW). Granted....I spent a metric butt-load on skills, martial arts, CSL's, Overall levels, Perks Talents, etc.... in fact my only actual "power" was a big (100 point) gadget pool. I could compete. I was the mighty reaper of mooks. I accidentally KILLED Pulsar one early game when I loaded him full of throwing knives. I wound up as the leader of our "Avengers-esque" PRIMUS Paranormal Response Force. I went from a knife wielding Punisher homage to a cross between Forge and Nick Fury. Flexible builds require more thought, but can be insanely effective if played well.

 

I'm pretty sure the next time I run a supers game I'm gonna still use Heroic rules including NCM, and apply the "Characteristics bought as Powers sidestep NCM" bit, and yes, I might even allow the +10 dex power build suggested abovethread

 

and I see no problem with that, If a character is build using the +10 bit and tried to sneak NCM on the sheet I would have a real problem with it, just like I would with the brick doing it, if you as a player want to be limited by it and choose it, that is your call, but when based on backstory you are told You will have NCM, when your not normal (and most superheroes are not normal, even the highly trained ones) well that is when I have a problem.

[JmOz]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

Speaking as someone in this specific sport, no, we aren't. Your first lift in a competition is a weight you can handle for at least three reps in training, so as to avoid blowing your score with a failure. Your second lift is a weight you can reliably perform one or two reps with. Your third lift, if you choose to attempt it, is a personal record. It's not a push (as much as pushing can be said to exist at all in the real world), in that it's generally a weight you expect to reliably lift in training, not a once in a lifetime life or death lift.

 

Besides, I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as "pushing" outside of fiction. Certainly lifters who try to work themselves up emotionally before lifts don't seem to be moving any more weight than lifters of a similar build, training age and level, either in the gym or in competition.

 

I would say it exists in the "mother lifts a car" type things more than any kind of sport...

[OddHat]

Re: Max Human attributes in Street level vs full Superheroic scales

 

I would say it exists in the "mother lifts a car" type things more than any kind of sport...

 

Possibly, though I have doubts about those stories as well. They may occur, and I know people who can lift a car given the right leverage, but like a lot of similar stories of amazing strength the mom-lifts-a-car-after-an-accident stories never seem all that well documented.