+? Disadvantages

[dropblack]

I have a feeling this is a painfully obvious question.

 

Generally in descriptions of monsters or NPCs the list of disadvantages is preceded by a bold number (usually 75) + Disadvantages. What does this number represent? In some cases (Randall Irons page 343 of Hero System 5th Edition Revised) the total value of disadvantages is equal to 75+, while with others (the Agathodaemon on page 5 of Monsters, Minions And Marauders) it is not so clear--in this second case it lists the total value of disadvantages at 300 though I only count a value of 225 (by the way this creature as a disadvantage worth 195 points called Experience Points, which I don't understand either...).

 

It seems to me this should be delineated some obvious place in the rules but I haven't found it yet.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

It represents the base points the character gets. So when it says 75+ Disadvantages, the character starts with 75 points for free and can gain additional points through Disadvantages.

[Sean Waters]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

Base points vary from game to game but generally not from character to character within a given game (although there may well be substantial variations between characters and NPCs) and are used to define the baseline realism/power of all characters in the game. Generally the higher the number the more powerful the characters.

 

Disadvantages add to this total, so that the Base points + disadvantages is the maximum number of characteristic points you can spend on the characters abilities skills etc. The amount of disadvantages you can 'buy' to increase available 'build/character' points is also usually capped.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

I have a feeling this is a painfully obvious question.

 

Generally in descriptions of monsters or NPCs the list of disadvantages is preceded by a bold number (usually 75) + Disadvantages. What does this number represent? In some cases (Randall Irons page 343 of Hero System 5th Edition Revised) the total value of disadvantages is equal to 75+, while with others (the Agathodaemon on page 5 of Monsters, Minions And Marauders) it is not so clear--in this second case it lists the total value of disadvantages at 300 though I only count a value of 225 (by the way this creature as a disadvantage worth 195 points called Experience Points, which I don't understand either...).

 

It seems to me this should be delineated some obvious place in the rules but I haven't found it yet.

 

And in some cases (the Bestiary being a prime example, if I'm remembering it right) you'll get the total as base points, plus disads, plus experience spent (once they've gone beyond the 'base' for the template, say, 150 Heroic, which is 75 + 75, but you want to make a Warhorse, that has to spend experience points to get to its final totals.

[dropblack]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

Ah, thanks for the illumination!

 

In regards to the Agathodaemon (if you happen to have Monsters, Minions And Marauders handy) can you guys tell me why it has a 195-point disadvantage called Experience Points?

 

Also, its total Disadvantage Points are listed as 300, though I only count 225 (not including the 10 for STR 0 and the 8 for BODY 6). Further up it lists Total Cost: 300. Is this the same?

 

Thanks again.

[dropblack]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

I replied before Thia's response registered in the forum-- so the Agathodaemon has 195-point Experience Points in addition to starting points of 75 and disadvantages?

[sbarron]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

The "300 total" is the total character points the character has spent.

 

300 = 225 Disadvantages + 75 Starting.

 

Actually, since I don't have my copy of MMM in front of me, I'm guessing about that. But I think its a good guess.

[dropblack]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

In this case its total Disadvantage Points are listed as 300 as well-- they aren't the same though... are they?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

No, they're not. The "XP" isn't a disad, it's just how it's marked off. Generally they won't go "over" the basic listing if they can avoid it, but in some cases it's warranted. I think, generally, Steve went towards 'accuracy' rather than being a slave to the guidelines. But when it runs out of disads, and has spent its base CP, the rest is made up for in XP.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

Usually, on a character sheet, the points are listed as Base + Disadvantages + Spent Experience. Some character sheet templates list spent experience under Disadvantages because they need to be listed somewhere.

 

In the days of 4th edition and prior you'd see characters with some kind of bonus listed under Disadvantages. It would usually be listed as "Villain Bonus" but there were numerous variations. I don't have any of the 5th edition villain books so I'm not sure whether that usage is continued. These bonuses are usually prohibited to player characters and only used for NPCs (villains, monsters, etc.).

 

Essentially, it's a construct added to the sheet to make the points add up.

[dropblack]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

Ah, I think I get it now. Thanks!

[dropblack]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

Er, so the Total Cost and the Total Disadvantage Points are always the same.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

For reasons I've never divined, yes.

[rjcurrie]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

Ah, thanks for the illumination!

 

In regards to the Agathodaemon (if you happen to have Monsters, Minions And Marauders handy) can you guys tell me why it has a 195-point disadvantage called Experience Points?

 

Also, its total Disadvantage Points are listed as 300, though I only count 225 (not including the 10 for STR 0 and the 8 for BODY 6). Further up it lists Total Cost: 300. Is this the same?

 

Thanks again.

 

In essence, the points spent on Abilities (Characteristics, Skills, Powers, etc.) which is labelled as "Total Cost" should usually balance with (and should not exceed) the points gained from Base Points, Disadvantages, and Experience Points which for NPCs in Hero Books is labelled "Total Disadvantage Points" even though they don't all come from Disads. Think of this as "Available Points", that is, the number of points available to spend on Abilities.

 

This works fine for Player Characters, but does not necessarily work as well for NPCs (particualarly creatures or master villains) which are often built to have a specific set of Abilitiies which may cost far more than the points available from Base Points and Disadvantages. In this case, the points needed to balance the character are usually listed as "Experience Points", or occasionally as "NPC Bonus", "Villain Bonus", or "Creature Bonus".

 

I don't have my book handy, but it appears from what you mention above that the Agathodaemon has 300 points in Abilities (Note that the reduced characteristics are not credited to the Disadvantages, but rather reduce the actual number of points spent), is built on 75 Base Points (the ? in the ?+ line), and has 30 points in achtial Disadvantages (not including the Experience Points entry). What this means, is that the creature actually has only 105 points available (75+30) to pay for its abilities. But rather than trim the creature's Abilities to balance the two sides, the creature is listed as having 195 (300-105) expeience points. This means that both sides add up to 300 points and the character is considered balanced.

[rjcurrie]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

For reasons I've never divined' date=' yes.[/quote']

 

As I mentioned above, if you think of "Total Disadvantage Points" as the Points Available to build the character, it may make more sense -- especially when you include Experience Points as part of that value. Similarly, unspent Experience Points should be included in the "Total Cost" figure (and listed with Abiliites) to keep the two sides properly balanced.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: +? Disadvantages

 

As I mentioned above' date=' if you think of "Total Disadvantage Points" as the Points Available to build the character, it may make more sense -- especially when you include Experience Points as part of that value. Similarly, unspent Experience Points should be included in the "Total Cost" figure (and listed with Abiliites) to keep the two sides properly balanced.[/quote']

 

I'm comfortable with that. Thanks, Rod.