1 pip RKA, Penetrating

[jtelson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

jtelson is right. From p.266 5ed Revised:

 

"...the target takes a minimum of 1 point of effect for every 1 "Normal Damage BODY" rolled on the dice or the damage he'd take from the attack, whichever is greater..."

 

But further down it says:

 

"...A 1-point Killing attack does 1 BODY penetrating; a half die of Killing Attack does 1 BODY if it rolls a 4,5 or 6 (minimum of 1 point); a Killing Attack that adds +1 to the dice rolled doesn't get any extra benefit if it's Penetrating."

 

The "(minimum of 1 point)" adds to the confusion: my interpretation is that it it's a 2DC Killing attack, it does a minimum of 1 pt, as per the 1DC KA. If it's a 1/2 die past the first, it doesn't have that minimum.

 

So a 1/2d6K Penetrating does a minimum of 1 BODY, the half die on a 3-1/2d6K only does penetrating damage on a 4,5 or 6.

 

 

I got the impression they were drifting into Standard Effect there but I could be wrong.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Now I'm confused. But I at least know that a 1 pip RKA does 1 BODY if it's Penetrating every time. I feel warm & fuzzy now.

[Vestnik]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Custom Limitation: Does not penetrate Hardened Targets with DEF of X or More. (-1/2).

 

Hmm. For poison darts, why even buy them linked to RKA at all? How about this:

 

Anesthetic Dart: 3d6 END Drain, Ranged (Limited Range; +1/4), No Normal Defense (Defense is Appropriate Immunity or Over 10 Points Resistant

PD; +1), 16 Charges (+0) (67 Active Points), OAF (Blowgun; -1),

Beam (-1/4) (30 Real Cost)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Hmm. For poison darts, why even buy them linked to RKA at all? How about this:

 

Anesthetic Dart: 3d6 END Drain, Ranged (Limited Range; +1/4), No Normal Defense (Defense is Appropriate Immunity or Over 10 Points Resistant

PD; +1), 16 Charges (+0) (67 Active Points), OAF (Blowgun; -1),

Beam (-1/4) (30 Real Cost)

 

*ponders* No, NND would certainly do it; I have to admit it's cleaner and more elegant than my build. Although I think he was going specifically for something that would penetrate regular armor (and regular people) and do its damage normally, but be stopped by say, "Vehicle Class Armor." Which will tangentalize into a whole nother rant about my view of the system's fatal flaw.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Wow... all this over Penetrating.

 

Penetrating Killing Damage has always counted the Penetrating Damage as "Normal Damage Body" when trying to determine how much goes through. It also only goes through if the Attack didn't overcome the Defenses - you take whichever total is GREATER the "Penetrating Damage" or the "Damage After Defenses."

 

A 1pip KA will always do 1pip, as the noted exception. Though even 1pt Resistant Hardened stops it cold.

 

Personally I see no problem with it, it's already a /!\ Advantage and thus the GM should ALREADY Be scrutinizing the build for possible issues. I have never had a 1pip Penetrating KA ruin a game. If even a portion of the potential targets have Hardened the point becomes moot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Hmm. For poison darts, why even buy them linked to RKA at all? How about this:

 

Anesthetic Dart: 3d6 END Drain, Ranged (Limited Range; +1/4), No Normal Defense (Defense is Appropriate Immunity or Over 10 Points Resistant

PD; +1), 16 Charges (+0) (67 Active Points), OAF (Blowgun; -1),

Beam (-1/4) (30 Real Cost)

 

How about this?

 

Anesthetic Dart: 3d6 END Drain, Ranged (Limited Range; +1/4), 16 Charges (+0) (37 Active Points), OAF (Blowgun; -1),Beam (-1/4), not vs target with hardened resistant PD (how common is it? say -1/4) (15 Real Cost)

 

But your construct is more powerful in that it also avoids power defense. Make the limitation whatever you like - not vs target a 1d6 Penetrating RKA would fail to affect; not vs targets with Appropriate Immunity or Over 10 Points Resistant PD; whatever feels right,.

[Vestnik]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

How about this?

 

Anesthetic Dart: 3d6 END Drain, Ranged (Limited Range; +1/4), 16 Charges (+0) (37 Active Points), OAF (Blowgun; -1),Beam (-1/4), not vs target with hardened resistant PD (how common is it? say -1/4) (15 Real Cost)

 

But your construct is more powerful in that it also avoids power defense. Make the limitation whatever you like - not vs target a 1d6 Penetrating RKA would fail to affect; not vs targets with Appropriate Immunity or Over 10 Points Resistant PD; whatever feels right,.

 

True. For some reason the venom examples in the Bestiary are built in part as NND Drains.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Wow... all this over Penetrating.

 

Penetrating Killing Damage has always counted the Penetrating Damage as "Normal Damage Body" when trying to determine how much goes through. It also only goes through if the Attack didn't overcome the Defenses - you take whichever total is GREATER the "Penetrating Damage" or the "Damage After Defenses."

 

A 1pip KA will always do 1pip, as the noted exception. Though even 1pt Resistant Hardened stops it cold.

 

Personally I see no problem with it, it's already a /!\ Advantage and thus the GM should ALREADY Be scrutinizing the build for possible issues. I have never had a 1pip Penetrating KA ruin a game. If even a portion of the potential targets have Hardened the point becomes moot.

 

Well, it becomes extra-powerful when stacked, but of course the GM can prevent that easily.

 

It's more of a principle thing for me. Why, exactly, is there an exception for the 1 pip KA? The system works across the board. And if you want an attack that always does exactly 1 BODY damage, that's buildable, too (NND, Does BODY). So why the exception?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Well, it becomes extra-powerful when stacked, but of course the GM can prevent that easily.

 

It's more of a principle thing for me. Why, exactly, is there an exception for the 1 pip KA? The system works across the board. And if you want an attack that always does exactly 1 BODY damage, that's buildable, too (NND, Does BODY). So why the exception?

 

Probably because it already breaks the model by not rolling dice.

[Kdansky]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

"Over 10 Points Resistant PD"

 

technically illegal, explicitly ruled in 5ER. "Over x points" is not a valid NND defense.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Its legal. Its inconsistent and mathematically unsound. These two things are not mutually exclusive (ref: Clinging UAA thread).

 

 

Personally, I know it doesn't make sense and is a goofy little rules anomaly, but on the other hand its really not worth my time to worry about. If a player deliberately tried to abuse it, my veto stamp gets inky is all, otherwise eh who cares.

 

The real serious problem w/ such a build isn't the body it does to living things. The problem is the effect it has on Foci.

 

However, I have a standing house rule that objects not marked Fragile have infinite amounts of Hardened only to Resist Penetrating to prevent cheesy Foci-buster attacks based on cheap Penetrating attacks in general so this isnt a concern for me.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Its legal. Its inconsistent and mathematically unsound. These two things are not mutually exclusive (ref: Clinging UAA thread).

 

Touché, my friend... touché.

[archermoo]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Well, it becomes extra-powerful when stacked, but of course the GM can prevent that easily.

 

It's more of a principle thing for me. Why, exactly, is there an exception for the 1 pip KA? The system works across the board. And if you want an attack that always does exactly 1 BODY damage, that's buildable, too (NND, Does BODY). So why the exception?

 

So that it has some effect and doesn't require rolling dice for it. I'll note that Penetrating officially notes that Refs might want to give a minimum of 1 point of effect getting through, regardless of the roll. Seems reasonable to me.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

So that it has some effect and doesn't require rolling dice for it.

 

NND, Does BODY acheives that.

 

I'll note that Penetrating officially notes that Refs might want to give a minimum of 1 point of effect getting through' date=' regardless of the roll. Seems reasonable to me.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure that's appropriate, though, for the same reason (small powers get significantly more benefit than large ones, to the point that a 1pip RKA gets the equivalent of a +2 Advantage for +1/2).

[archermoo]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

NND' date=' Does BODY acheives that.[/quote']

 

But isn't the same thing.

 

I'm not sure that's appropriate' date=' though, for the same reason (small powers get significantly more benefit than large ones, to the point that a 1pip RKA gets the equivalent of a +2 Advantage for +1/2). [/quote']

 

If you think it is a balance issue, don't allow it. I've never seen it be an issue, so I'm not concerned about it. Yes, you can make broken builds taking advantage of it. You can do with with just about anything in Hero.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

1d6 RKA, SER, +10 STUN Multiplier. I WIN!

[archermoo]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

1d6 RKA' date=' SER, +10 STUN Multiplier. I WIN![/quote']

 

SER?

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

But isn't the same thing.

 

It is, though. An attack that always does 1 BODY, unless the target has Hardened Defenses. 1pip RKA, Penetrating (with the exception), or 1pip RKA, NND (Defense is Hardened Defenses), Does BODY.

 

If you think it is a balance issue' date=' don't allow it. I've never seen it be an issue, so I'm not concerned about it. Yes, you can make broken builds taking advantage of it. You can do with with just about anything in Hero.[/quote']

 

You're, of course, correct in this. I'm arguing more from a conceptual, principle, academic point of view. In practice, a 1 pip RKA, Penetrating, is hardly ever unbalancing, whether it costs 7 points or 15. And if it were (for whatever reason, including other Advantages), the GM can always disallow it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

SER?

 

Standard Effect Roll, if I remember the TLA correctly.

[archermoo]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

It is' date=' though. An attack that always does 1 BODY, unless the target has Hardened Defenses. 1pip RKA, Penetrating (with the exception), or 1pip RKA, NND (Defense is Hardened Defenses), Does BODY.[/quote']

 

No, they have basically the same effect, though the Defense would have to be Hardened Resistant Defenses, or Hardened non-Resistant defenses would stop it even though it is a KA. They aren't the same. They would be affected differently by and Aid to RKA, even discounting that one costs more than the other. One would be harder to suppress or dispell than the other. They are both ways of building attacks that will get 1 Body through anything but Hardened Resistant defenses. But they aren't the same.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

I say the whole system is unbalanced. It's not ready for human testing. Take it back to formula.

[archermoo]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Standard Effect Roll' date=' if I remember the TLA correctly. [/quote']

 

Ah, don't think I've ever seen that one. Not sure what "Roll" brings to it, since there isn't any rolling involved.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

Ah' date=' don't think I've ever seen that one. Not sure what "Roll" brings to it, since there isn't any rolling involved. [/quote']

 

BLAM.

[Tonio]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

No' date=' they have basically the same effect, though the Defense would have to be Hardened Resistant Defenses, or Hardened non-Resistant defenses would stop it even though it is a KA. They aren't the same. They would be affected differently by and Aid to RKA, even discounting that one costs more than the other. One would be harder to suppress or dispell than the other. They are both ways of building attacks that will get 1 Body through anything but Hardened Resistant defenses. But they aren't the same.[/quote']

 

The cost is part of what I think is broken with the current exception. Furthermore, Aiding a 1-pip Penetrating RKA, with the current exception, is yet another exception: a power that normally does full damage now does variable damage (when Aided), since you're no longer covered by the exception. Harder to suppress or dispel is only due to the difference in cost. Both constructs, as-is (that is, without involving Aids) work the same. One requires an exception, and is more powerful than warranted for its cost. The other requires no exception, and sits nicely on the power/cost curve. The former behaves "strangely" (not extremely, but strangely nonetheless) to Aids, changing its normal behavior. The other doesn't.

 

I agree these aren't big problems, in fact they're not really problems, but more like inconsistencies. Moreover, inconsistencies which, I believe, bring nothing to the game, except a power that, strangely enough, can do less damage when Aided, unless the GM intervenes.

[archermoo]

Re: 1 pip RKA, Penetrating

 

The cost is part of what I think is broken with the current exception. Furthermore, Aiding a 1-pip Penetrating RKA, with the current exception, is yet another exception: a power that normally does full damage now does variable damage (when Aided), since you're no longer covered by the exception. Harder to suppress or dispel is only due to the difference in cost. Both constructs, as-is (that is, without involving Aids) work the same. One requires an exception, and is more powerful than warranted for its cost. The other requires no exception, and sits nicely on the power/cost curve. The former behaves "strangely" (not extremely, but strangely nonetheless) to Aids, changing its normal behavior. The other doesn't.

 

I agree these aren't big problems, in fact they're not really problems, but more like inconsistencies. Moreover, inconsistencies which, I believe, bring nothing to the game, except a power that, strangely enough, can do less damage when Aided, unless the GM intervenes.

 

It isn't an exception. It is a statement about how the advantage works in the absense of a die roll to determine it.

 

And I'll agree that they have the same basic effect short of anything else modifying them. Which is a far cry from them being "the same" as you previously claimed.

 

Personally I prefer the 1 point of penetration per DC varient. Among other advantages it neatly bypasses this windmill.