Power Frameworks & Advantages

[Sundansyr]

In the 5th ed rulebook it states the following:

 

Advantages applied to the maintainance pool of a Multipower are applied to all slots within the multipower but are not calculated on a per-slot basis for active point costs. Limitations applied to the pool ARE calculated on the real-cost of the slot.

 

EG: 60 pt Multipower Reserve, +1/2 variable advantage (+1) = 120 ap.

Slot 1: 12d6 EB = 60ap, but has the VA applied without affecting the cost of the slot (120 'effective' AP).

Slot 2: 12d6 EB, OAF (-1) = 30 rp, but still gets the VA without the +1 cost modifier (120 'effective' AP).

 

This confused the dickens out of one of my players, and had me stymied for a while, too... but...

 

Does the same apply to EC and VPP? Advantages on the pool cost are applied, but not cost calculated, to all subsequent slots while limitations on the pool ARE calculated per slot?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

FYI,

testing via HDv3 I found that it will not allow Advantages to be placed on the EC cost but VPP does allow them to be applied to the Pool directly.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

... I think I'm just slow today.

 

WHAT?

 

Thank you.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

In the 5th ed rulebook it states the following:

 

Advantages applied to the maintainance pool of a Multipower are applied to all slots within the multipower but are not calculated on a per-slot basis for active point costs. Limitations applied to the pool ARE calculated on the real-cost of the slot.

 

MPow: 60 pt Multipower Reserve, +1/2 variable advantage (+1) = 120 ap.

Slot 1: 12d6 EB = 60ap, but has the VA applied without affecting the cost of the slot (120 'effective' AP).

Slot 2: 12d6 EB, OAF (-1) = 30 rp, but still gets the VA without the +1 cost modifier (120 'effective' AP).

 

Does the same apply to EC and VPP? Advantages on the pool cost are applied, but not cost calculated, to all subsequent slots while limitations on the pool ARE calculated per slot?

 

Not exactly -- in part, because your phrasing as to how it's applied is a little peculiar as you put it above.

 

Every Power in the MPow above receives a +1/2 variable advantage, but the 'cost of the slot on its own' -- without that +1/2 VarAdv (+1) -- is maxed out at 60. (This is one reason why it's better to not apply advantages to the reserve, you never know when you AREN'T going to want the damn thing.) The Real Cost of the slot is going to be based off the 'cost of the slot on its own' -- 6 in the first case, 3 in the second. But they both have that +1/2 Variable Advantage.

 

For ECs and VPPs, the rules are somewhat different on each...

 

ECs don't get Advantages added to them; you could, but it'd suck, because then you aren't going to get the real bonus of the EC out of it. You WOULD apply all Advantages (to both the base EC and the slot itself) to find the slot's Active Point cost. Since you're doing this anyhow, why bother doing it to the base EC? Just set your EC at, in this example, 60 points -- to accomodate 120-point powers.

 

When applying Advantages to a VPP, you have to define whether it applies to the VPP only, or if it's a Common Modifier. The former are mostly 'time' and 'access' limitations -- when you can change the pool, and what you can change the pool into, and what you need in order to change the pool. The latter apply to everything -- pool AND slots. While you CAN apply advantages at that point, it's silly to do so -- a VPP is wonderful because you can swap out whatever advantages you want at any time. With a 120-point pool, you could have a 2d6 EB with a +12 Advantages added to it. Or whatever. And if you apply the advantages as Common Modifiers, you'll get More Cost for No Comparable Advantage.

 

In essence, the advice of this gamer is to apply advantages only to powers, never to their base Power Framework.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

Not exactly -- in part, because your phrasing as to how it's applied is a little peculiar as you put it above.

 

Every Power in the MPow above receives a +1/2 variable advantage, but the 'cost of the slot on its own' -- without that +1/2 VarAdv (+1) -- is maxed out at 60. (This is one reason why it's better to not apply advantages to the reserve, you never know when you AREN'T going to want the damn thing.) The Real Cost of the slot is going to be based off the 'cost of the slot on its own' -- 6 in the first case, 3 in the second. But they both have that +1/2 Variable Advantage.

 

For ECs and VPPs, the rules are somewhat different on each...

 

ECs don't get Advantages added to them; you could, but it'd suck, because then you aren't going to get the real bonus of the EC out of it. You WOULD apply all Advantages (to both the base EC and the slot itself) to find the slot's Active Point cost. Since you're doing this anyhow, why bother doing it to the base EC? Just set your EC at, in this example, 60 points -- to accomodate 120-point powers.

 

When applying Advantages to a VPP, you have to define whether it applies to the VPP only, or if it's a Common Modifier. The former are mostly 'time' and 'access' limitations -- when you can change the pool, and what you can change the pool into, and what you need in order to change the pool. The latter apply to everything -- pool AND slots. While you CAN apply advantages at that point, it's silly to do so -- a VPP is wonderful because you can swap out whatever advantages you want at any time. With a 120-point pool, you could have a 2d6 EB with a +12 Advantages added to it. Or whatever. And if you apply the advantages as Common Modifiers, you'll get More Cost for No Comparable Advantage.

 

In essence, the advice of this gamer is to apply advantages only to powers, never to their base Power Framework.

 

Well, then why didn't he just say that to begin with?! Yes, of course WO is correct (now that I know what we're talking about). Applying an Advantage to a Framework means that advantage applies to all powers in said framework; this is rarely allowed in my campaigns, for the very reason that WO submits.

 

Limitations are very often applied to a whole framework, and thusly trickle down to the powers within them. IIRC, the book says you can add, say, "Armor Piercing" to an MP, and all slots are now AP, but it's also generally frowned upon because it makes it insanely cheap.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

Limitations are very often applied to a whole framework' date=' and thusly trickle down to the powers within them. IIRC, the book says you can add, say, "Armor Piercing" to an MP, and all slots are now AP, but it's also generally frowned upon because it makes it insanely cheap.[/quote']

 

Cheap in one way, expensive in another. Most people are going to want OTHER things on the slots in their MP as well, which means the MP's base cost is likely to be wasted on 'all those slots with AP'.

 

First iteration:

 

Variable Attack Whatever: Multipower, 60-point reserve, all slots Armor Piercing (+1/2) (90 Active Points): 90 Real Cost.

u) Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points): 6 END, 6 Real Cost.

u) Energy Blast 7 1/2d6, Explosion (+1/2) (57 Active Points); OAF (-1): 6 END, 3 Real Cost

 

Second iteration:

 

Variable Attack Whatever: Multipower, 90-point reserve: 90 Real Cost.

u) Energy Blast 12d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (90 Active Points): 9 END, 9 Real Cost.

u) Energy Blast 9d6, Explosion (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (90 Active Points); OAF (-1): 9 END, 4 Real Cost.

 

If you're adding any OTHER advantage to the powers in the slots, adding the advantage to the base pool robs the rest of power. Though I'll concede it DOES kick a certain amount of ass on the END and Real Costs of each slot.

[Sundansyr]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

Hmmm, perhaps I was not clear (the points made concerning EC & VPP help, tho).

 

As the rulebook puts it, the powers within a MP framework cannot exceed the Reserve cost (60pt, here), and advantages on the Reserve translate to the powers in the reserve (as I see it because you have a fixed pool of CP to draw from to 'create' each active power, but the powers are not alterable like VPP... but then I am very, very unfamiliar with VPP).

Since limitations are only to calculate Real Cost and not factored into the Active Cost of a power they're applied per slot to determine actual cost of the slot.

 

I informed the player that before he put any power into his MP he had to calculate its Active Cost, as well as it's base cost, to make sure it would fit and be within the 120 AP limit and remains within the Pool limit.

 

 

We just had some confusion over the math more than anything else, and how to set up his power framework logically and efficiently. In the end it was a 180 pt reserve (since there are no campaign limits on framework costs) limited to 60 base point (120 ap) powers. We had to come up with 'EP'... 'Effective Points' to make the difference between AP, RP, and modified multipower slot costs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

The Active Cost of the Power before the Framework Applied Advantage must be equal to or less than the Framework Pool; it then gets the Advantage "for free" without any further considerations to Active, Real or Base costs.

[Sundansyr]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

The Active Cost of the Power before the Framework Applied Advantage must be equal to or less than the Framework Pool; it then gets the Advantage "for free" without any further considerations to Active' date=' Real or Base costs.[/quote']

 

Yes, exactly. This is what confused the dickens out of the player, because the 'active points' of the slots was skewed due to the 'free' advantages. The freebie could, with that 180 point pool, take the power well beyond the desired 120 ap for powers because the pool advantages are not factored into the cost of the slots that recieves them. That's why the 'effective point' approach, to make sure that the powers within the MP remained within the campaign limits.

 

Luckily the character is an NPC not likely to see a great deal of facetime. Makes a good testbed.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

The following was done on HD v2:

 

60 Multipower, 60-point reserve

6u 1) EB 12d6 (60 Active Points), END COST: 6

6u 2) RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points), END COST: 6

 

90 Multipower, 60-point reserve, all slots Armor Piercing (+1/2) (90 Active Points)

6u 1) EB 12d6 (60 Active Points), END COST: 6

6u 2) RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points), END COST: 6

 

*----------------------------------------------*

 

90 Variable Power Pool, 60 base + 30 control cost, (90 Active Points)

0 1) EB 12d6 (60 Active Points) Real Cost: 60, END COST: 6

0 2) RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points) Real Cost: 60, END COST: 6

 

105 Variable Power Pool, 60 base + 45 control cost, all slots Armor Piercing (+1/2) (105 Active Points)

0 1) EB 12d6 (90 Active Points) Real Cost: 90, END COST: 9

0 2) RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points) Real Cost: 75, END COST: 7

 

*----------------------------------------------*

 

30 Elemental Control, 60-point powers

30 1) EB 12d6 (60 Active Points), END COST: 6

30 2) RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1) (60 Active Points), END COST: 6

 

74 Elemental Control, 74-point powers

60 1) EB 12d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (90 Active Points), END COST: 9

45 2) RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points), END COST: 7

 

Above are the three frameworks, each with and without an Advantage.

 

Multipowers (MPs): It affected only the cost of the reserve but not the slots, adding 30 points. It doesn't increase the cost of the slots, nor does it increase their END cost. It doesn't affect the Active Points of the Slots in regards to how much of the Pool it takes.

 

Variable Power Pools (VPP): It affected the control cost (which is only half of the pool), adding 15 points. It *also* affected the END cost of the powers. It doesn't affect the Active Points of the Slots in regards to how much of the Pool it takes, or the upper limit of the Slot size.

 

I believe the END calculation differs from MPs as a balancing factor for the increase in cost being half that for MPs. The problem is that I can make all the powers Zero END for half the cost it would in a MP. After that, the "increased" END cost is no longer a balancing factor.

 

Elemental Controls (ECs): It's not allowed to buy an Advantage on the Reserve, so I had to buy it on the individual slots and then increase the Reserve to accommodate them.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

I have wondered about how to do a more flexible magic use system with frameworks. By "flexible" I mean the ability for a mage to cast a spell that has a variable duration; Instant for some powers, and ranging from 1 Phase on up for other powers.

 

The mage has a Multipower of spells he knows. He can case an RKA, Flight, and Force Wall among others. If he casts any Constant Power he has to keep that slot active to power it, or it has to be built with Continuing Charges, or it alone has to have Uncontrolled, making the Active Points available for an already expensive power that much less.

 

A third alternative I thought of was to buy Uncontrolled on the MP reserve, and the "Instant-only" spells take a -0 Limitation that only one "use" of END can be given at a time. This would alow for the Caster to cast a Force Wall and give it enough END to last as many Phases as he desires, and it's APs would be on par with the regular attacks' APs. And after casting, he can switch to some other power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Frameworks & Advantages

 

The Lingering Advantage in Fantasy Hero can also be used to achieve that.