Desolidification and Teleport Damage

[Alibear]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Very true but I'm not the type to worry about a problem that hasn't came up yet. It's not something I'll give too much thought to.

 

I'd be a quivering wreck with a toddler and another on the way if I worried about all possible problems.

 

"Jeez, I wonder if Finn is okay at the Kindergarten? Should I phone to check?"

[nexus]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

There's a couple of relevant threads in the FAQ forum.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Very true but I'm not the type to worry about a problem that hasn't came up yet. It's not something I'll give too much thought to.

 

I'd be a quivering wreck with a toddler and another on the way if I worried about all possible problems.

 

"Jeez, I wonder if Finn is okay at the Kindergarten? Should I phone to check?"

 

I probably wouldn't even be posting on the boards if I didn't enjoy thinking about and discussing both practical and theoretical problems. In practice, largely because I've probably considered a lot of the problems before they come up, I'll make a quick decision as to what feels right and best preserves game integrity. Different strokes

 

My big son's middle name is Finn, BTW.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I'd say the most technically correct way to buy the effect, given Steve's ruling, would be to buy Teleport and Desolid normally, then buy the Safe Blind Teleport Adder with the Limitation "Linked to Desolid." Like others in the thread have said, in this case, with this combination of powers and SFX, I would rule the Safe Blind Teleport would leave you in the location actually Teleported to. You'd just happen to be safe in that spot.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I'd say the most technically correct way to buy the effect' date=' given Steve's ruling, would be to buy Teleport and Desolid normally, then buy the Safe Blind Teleport Adder with the Limitation "Linked to Desolid." Like others in the thread have said, in this case, with this combination of powers and SFX, I would rule the Safe Blind Teleport would leave you in the location actually Teleported to. You'd just happen to be safe in that spot. [/quote']

 

 

I do take the point, I just don't agree with it

 

Be a funny old world if we did all agree.

 

Quiet too.

[Starlight]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I have to disagree with this ruling. The interior of a rock is a safe place to be with Desolidification. That power allows a character to move into such a position by running or flight or swinging, etc. Teleport, being a movement power should be no different.

 

The question of getting something for nothing really doesn't apply. The character is paying for Desolidification. At least 40 active points. That's probably quite a bit more than any Safe Blind Teleport advantage cost.

 

The question that was raised of the special effect of the Desolidification, such as turning into smoke, not being consistent with being inside solid rock is also of highly questionable validity. Such special effects are almost invariably linked with a cannot pass through a solid barrier limitation. In which case the Desolification isn't going to work when the character teleports into the rock and she'll take the damage unless she also has Safe Blind Teleport.

[Alibear]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

 

My big son's middle name is Finn, BTW.

 

I always knew you were a man of taste and discernment.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I always knew you were a man of taste and discernment.

 

I certainly have a wife of taste and discernment (with an unaccountable blind spot about me )!

[Alibear]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Nobody is perfect and you probably make her laugh. You know how women'll lower their standards for comedians.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Nobody is perfect and you probably make her laugh. You know how women'll lower their standards for comedians.

 

I still don't understand - I'm not THAT funny

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

First off, I agree with Alibear - this will not be common. With that in mind, I think any resolution the GM considers balanced will work.

 

I can also see the case for both sides of the argument. "You are desolid, so you are not injured from a blind teleport materializing you, still desolid, inside solid rock." This makes sense, but as some have noted, it very much depends on the SFX of the Desolid, and probably of the Teleport as well.

 

"This is Hero - you get what you pay for. If the SFX of your Teleport and Desolid suggest that you should be safe from damage if a blind teleport materializes you in a solid object." This also makes sense, supporting Steve's ruling. Once we start allowing free effects based on logic, it's tough to know when to stop. Can I open a lock by shutting off my Desolid while holding a Desolid object in the lock? Can I destroy an enemy using the same tactic with an object held in his head? Both are logical ramifications of Desolid.

 

But so is either falling to the center of the earth (gravity affecting you) or spinning off into space as the earth moves on (gravity doesn't affect you). And how can you breath with Desolid lungs? The air still has mass.

 

While it would be ideal for the rules to state how Teleport and Desolid interact, there are a lot of other things the rules could state - and the book is already quite large. After a while, we start to look like a collectible card game - "Combining these two cards does this, and countering with this card does that" and on and on and on.

 

Part of the reason the book is as long as it is is because the rules do not take a consistent approach to things. Sometimes game balance seems to take precedence, other times, rule enforcement - and it is hard to know which should take precedence in a situation which has not already been addressed.

 

Desolid is a perfect example - you are affected by gravity normally, but, despite the fact you can pass through the surface of the Earth you can decide not to - in which case, hitting it hurts even though you are still desolid. The 'Earth interaction' has been added because otherwise the power would be a bit nonsenical in application, in a lot of situations.

 

So, is there a power which lets you counteract the effects of gravity? Sure - flight. If the rule was stated without caveats then you'd, in 95% of cases, want to buy some flight when you purchase desolid. Deriving the outcome of the interaction of powers and of situations would be straightforward. The rules would be shorter, confusion would be banished and a new age of enlightenment and progress will dawn.

 

To me, it is the micro-management and the tinkering that clog things up. It has got to the stage where I rarely dare look at the QnA (and this is me talking) because I dread to think what I'm going to find. Now it could just be that I'm someone who naturally picks up the wrong end of the stick, but a consistent approach, rules designed to work together mechanically without having to worry about practical application, and without exceptions for specific stituations and synergies (that is what character building is for), would produce sticks with only one end.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

Desolid is a perfect example - you are affected by gravity normally, but, despite the fact you can pass through the surface of the Earth you can decide not to - in which case, hitting it hurts even though you are still desolid. The 'Earth interaction' has been added because otherwise the power would be a bit nonsenical in application, in a lot of situations.

 

So, is there a power which lets you counteract the effects of gravity? Sure - flight. If the rule was stated without caveats then you'd, in 95% of cases, want to buy some flight when you purchase desolid. Deriving the outcome of the interaction of powers and of situations would be straightforward. The rules would be shorter, confusion would be banished and a new age of enlightenment and progress will dawn.

 

I dislike the idea of one power requiring another to work. As such, saying "oops - you didn't buy any flight, so you can't move while you are Desolid, and you sink to the center of the earth" would be a non-starter for me. I aso disagree with the idea that Megascale Movement is useless unless you have Megascale Senses. This creates confusion among the new players especially (old guard will have a grasp of the common required synergies), and can leave a bad play experience when their character is useless due to lack of knowledge of such required synergies. Besides, not every character who can turn desolid can also fly.

 

I do aree that things have gotten quite complex, likely needlessly so. This stems, in large pat, from the desire of many players to have every queston answered by the designers, much like every question of card combinations in trading card games musthave an "official ruling".

 

There are lots of FAQ answers I also disagre with, and the "falling still hurts the Desolid" is definitely one of them. If the desolid character is immune to physical harm, he should be immune to falling damage, which is physical harm. If he is not, thatis a limitation. However, I simply look to these as Steve's answer as a GM, and override those I disagree with. Just like I would override rules I disagree with from the rulebook itself, although in this caseafter discussion with my group.

 

The Teleport into Solid Object issue seems reasonable, however. There is no reason every desolid character would be OK teleporting into a solid object. Some might be safe evenif they weren't desolid when they teleported. Others might be OK, but only if desolid when teleporting. A third set might never be safe. So making the default "You paid 40 for Desolid whether you could Teleport or not. Desolid does not make Teleport more effective. If yourDesolid makes a blind teleport safe, buy the adder to reflect the added utility this brings to your Teleport" seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

................

The Teleport into Solid Object issue seems reasonable, however. There is no reason every desolid character would be OK teleporting into a solid object. Some might be safe evenif they weren't desolid when they teleported. Others might be OK, but only if desolid when teleporting. A third set might never be safe. So making the default "You paid 40 for Desolid whether you could Teleport or not. Desolid does not make Teleport more effective. If yourDesolid makes a blind teleport safe, buy the adder to reflect the added utility this brings to your Teleport" seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

Oh I agree that not every character should be safe, but I also feel that you've paid for immunity from interactions with solid objects when you bought 'desolid'. I'd deal with other cases with advantages or limitations to the basic premise.

 

The proof to me is that SBT does not work to let you materialise in a solid object, so you simply can't do it with that - either the place you are materialising is safe - so you don't get moved elesewhere, but then you take no damage either, OR it is not safe in which case you DO get moved. If you have to change how SBT works to fit it around a ruling, I'm sensing a problem. The desolid/TP synergy is no more mysterious to me than the desolid/flight synergy - desolid allows you to be in, or pass through solid objects whilst it is operational, without taking any damage. As that seems the simplest overall interpretation, and can be derived from how desolid works, it seems the best. However, I too am more than capable of ignoring the official position. I'm arguing on, however, in the vague hope of encouraging increased structural integrity in rules development. Probably.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Desolidification and Teleport Damage

 

I'd say it depends on the nature of the Desolidification and the Teleport, but normally, no.

 

If Desolidification is based on just moving fast and being bendy, then I'd say the character still takes damage.

 

If the Desolidification is based on being able to break down into incredibly small components, like turning into smoke, then I'd say the character still takes damage.

 

But if the Desolidification is based on being completely Desolid, like being a ghost or a hologram, then I'd say no, the character does not take damage from being teleported into a solid object.

 

Basically, if the character with Desolid can pass through a wall of solid steel or concrete, then I'd say they don't take damage.

 

My $.02

 

It sounds like the threshold here is the Limitation "Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects" - that avoids finicky SFX arguments entirely.

 

 

(Of course, then I remembered that folks complained previously about the static cost of Desol, and I tried to think of a way to make it so you buy X amount of BODY you could walk through or ignore. And then I tried to think whether it would be a roll or a base amount bought with the power. And then my head started to hurt and I had to go lie down. Based on my standard Meta-Rule of "Anything That Makes My Head Hurt Is A Bad Idea", clearly this train of thought needs to be abandoned )